[DST] Wilson and Willow rework

[JohnWatson]

16 hours ago, Donke60 said:

Still waiting for when the buff Wes

I'm not really sure about buffing Wes. He seems like he was made with the sole purpose to make the game harder for the player. I don't know.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

33 minutes ago, Donke60 said:

Still waiting for when the buff Wes

May be in regards to other players mostly, because he's supposed to be a challenge character.

[Frosty_Mentos]

5 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

I will only respond to the still-open matter of the kind of discussion here.

Don't take me wrong, but you're a very young person, aren't you?

Honesty and retaining face are not mutually-exclusive. In fact they go side-by-side. Compare these two sentences:

A: Bernie is pretty much useless and a pathetic excuse for an upside.

B: In my humble opinion, Bernie is not too useful. He's little of an upside.

Which creates a sense of the author being moderate and thus open to reasoning?

In written speech, there is no possibility of seeing anything but the portrait you paint yourself through words. With a friend standing next to you, you can be fine with them stating "Idiot" if they're grinning confidentially, because you have other signs which allow you to discern they do not wish to be rude, but are teasing you instead. In forum communication, you are and will be judged by how you express yourself through words alone. It's hard, agreed, but essential in discussion.

You are a social animal. There's no way to blatantly ignore how you make people feel. I'm afraid you went overboard with Emerson's theories here. You want to discuss something? You have to care about the impact of how you convey your message.

Admiration of vulgarity... No. I cannot agree. I cannot fathom that. I know young people may remain under the fallacious impression swearing makes you tough and cool, but it doesn't work this way. Anyone mature will be more perceptive to one who doesn't need obscenities to express themselves. It's a godsend the moderators here try to uphold some standards of decorum. I and many others would have a horrible time without that.

 

L

M

A

O

I luv u

[Frosty_Mentos]

3 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

I'm not really sure about buffing Wes. He seems like he was made with the sole purpose to make the game harder for the player. I don't know.

I don't think that they will change willow, because it's her "sole" purpose to defend people from nightmares and provide fire in need

[blubuild]

Just pointing out that saying that a character is bad because they're not nearly as good as Wigfrid is silly. The comparison is meaningless. Wigfrid is an extremely overpowered character, so the problem isn't that other characters aren't as good.

[JohnWatson]

23 hours ago, Mantas said:

I don't think that they will change willow, because it's her "sole" purpose to defend people from nightmares and provide fire in need

I can't understand why some people are so resistant to change. What's the purpose of this entire forum if we should just accept that the devs will not change anything?

Anyway, I don't believe her purpose is to defend people from nightmares and provide fire in need, I already explained why. Bernie's better purpose is for farming Shadow Creatures, not to defend people from them. People don't need to be defended from Shadow Creatures because it's so easy to manage sanity if you know what you're doing, there's no point in having an item in the game which has the sole purpose of forgiving the player for not managing their stats well. I would not like it if Bernie got buffed to the point wherein going insane is no problem because Bernie is there to protect you. It would make the game too forgiving. As for farming Shadow Creatures, Bernie does a better job at it, but is usually not worth it because he costs Beard Hair and you can still farm easily without him. Oh, and all other characters can craft Campfires, Fire Pits, Torches, and Fire Staffs as much as Willow can. Willow's Lighter is also not worth it to craft, it has limited durability, and it can be lost. Willow's purpose is not to provide fire because really any character can do that.

I don't even think you read anything I have said, or you at least did not make any effort to understand them. Since you're just repeating the same statement of "they will not change Willow" instead of providing any new insight to the discussion. Sorry if I just misinterpreted why you keep repeating that, but that's just how I'm perceiving what you say.

17 hours ago, blubuild said:

Just pointing out that saying that a character is bad because they're not nearly as good as Wigfrid is silly. The comparison is meaningless. Wigfrid is an extremely overpowered character, so the problem isn't that other characters aren't as good.

Yes, that's why I asked to nerf Wigfrid. I'm not saying that Wilson and Willow should be buffed to the same level as Wigfrid, I'm suggesting that Wilson and Willow should be buffed to become more beneficial for other players. Remember that this is a cooperative multiplayer game.

And I don't see how comparing other characters to Wigfrid is meaningless. I could compare anything to anything and still have a meaningful result.

[Pyr0mrcow]

13 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Oh, and fire immunity lets you do this. Can't be done in DST because Willow has no fire immunity.

...y'know, this just now occurred to me. If she has scalemail, wouldn't she still be able to do that?
Meaning even current Willow would be insanely powerful after getting that. Haven't tried it, but...I don't see why that wouldn't be the case.
It is a really weird/indirect power, though. Cooking in inventory is one thing, but soloing bosses in a few seconds is kind of ridiculous. Maybe make her able to set herself on (normal non-stacked) fire for a few seconds instead?

Or she could be refocused more on managing everyone's sanity. She'd know a thing or two about it.

I'd love to see Bernie have something to do with fire, but then there might be copyright issues.

[JohnWatson]

16 hours ago, Pyr0mrcow said:

...y'know, this just now occurred to me. If she has scalemail, wouldn't she still be able to do that?
Meaning even current Willow would be insanely powerful after getting that. Haven't tried it, but...I don't see why that wouldn't be the case.
It is a really weird/indirect power, though. Cooking in inventory is one thing, but soloing bosses in a few seconds is kind of ridiculous. Maybe make her able to set herself on (normal non-stacked) fire for a few seconds instead?

Every character can do it with Scalemail. And yes, having more DPS than Wolfgang seems too overpowered. Especially without Scalemail as Willow, you effectively have a free damage multiplier bonus as long as your have a good supply of Boards. Though in Don't Starve Together, not only has Willow's fire immunity been removed, but also you can no longer set items in your inventory on fire, so this is only a singleplayer feature.

Also, I don't see how being able to set yourself on fire would be useful though.

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Or she could be refocused more on managing everyone's sanity. She'd know a thing or two about it.

Any ability meant to make sanity management easier would always be either underwhelming or too forgiving. If the sanity ability is subtle or situational, then it's not worth it because it's better to just learn how to manage your sanity. If the ability is strong and useful, then it would make the game too forgiving.

I think that the purpose of sanity is to temporarily limit the actions of the player. You cannot fight too many monsters or wander in the dark for too long. It's like some "energy meter" of some sort, especially since you regain sanity by sleeping or eating food.

[Frosty_Mentos]

On 11/12/2016 at 5:41 PM, JohnWatson said:

Bernie's better purpose is for farming Shadow Creatures, not to defend people from them.

He is useful on protecting from nightmares on boss fights, since people use dark swords a lot

 

18 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Yes, that's why I asked to nerf Wigfrid. I'm not saying that Wilson and Willow should be buffed to the same level as Wigfrid, I'm suggesting that Wilson and Willow should be buffed to become more beneficial for other players. Remember that this is a cooperative multiplayer game.

Why do you say they aren't, honestly, wilson is kinda a selfish character, who doesn't offer much but assistance, willow can cook, has light and Bernie's, and only side effect is freezing, if she had immunity and random fires back, people wouldnt like her in their bases at all and would be more of a selfish griefer. Honestly I don't think that she ever had immunity to fire, it all could had been in her head, while she is with other people she realizes that her lighter isn't infinite. ok its weird that she can craft them, but how can wigfrid do it with gold, rocks, and bare hands make spear or helms? Nothing really makes sense, but it still makes it fun to play.

 

18 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

I don't even think you read anything I have said, or you at least did not make any effort to understand them. Since you're just repeating the same statement of "they will not change Willow" instead of providing any new insight to the discussion. Sorry if I just misinterpreted why you keep repeating that, but that's just how I'm perceiving what you say.

I read as much as I can usually in a hurry, but I am still gonna say that they won't change her, the fire immunity is overpowered and godlike, there were a ton of topics who tried to do the same thing and buff her, but nobody really knew how to, because it would had made her OP. I don't like the immunity back, I like having a little challenge, btw, what's the point of having immunity? ok maybe if they at least removed the freezing, but what would be her debuff? As many characters has them, she needs one in dst too. If she didn't had the freezing then she would had been unbalanced compared to other characters. The only thing I could suggest to buff her lighter that as soon as she equips it it woundnt loose 1% durability and maybe for her as a user it would last a bit longer

[JohnWatson]

On 11/13/2016 at 0:49 PM, Mantas said:

He is useful on protecting from nightmares on boss fights, since people use dark swords a lot

I don't really see people running around with Dark Swords a lot, probably because of its prerequisites. Anyway, if sanity is so much of a problem like you mention, then why not just bring sanity-restoring items? Or use a cheaper weapon like the Ham Bat or Wigfrid's Battle Spear? Preventing players from being insane in the first place is always better than trying to protect players when they have already gone insane.

If Bernie provides sanity restoration or halves the rate at which you lose sanity when he's nearby or inside your inventory, then maybe he would be better for "protecting from nightmares". Distracting Shadow Creatures is such a gimmicky ability, you would need to attack the Shadow Creatures anyway and take sanity-restoring items if you went insane unintentionally. No different from not having Bernie.

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Why do you say they aren't, honestly, wilson is kinda a selfish character, who doesn't offer much but assistance,

You literally just answered your own question right after saying it. I don't get it.

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willow can cook, has light and Bernie's, and only side effect is freezing,

Every character can cook and make light, what is even your point here. And I already explained why Willow's Lighter and Bernie are extremely underwhelming, why do you not read what I say.

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if she had immunity and random fires back, people wouldnt like her in their bases at all and would be more of a selfish griefer.

I never said to return her random fires at low sanity back. You kinda made it clear you aren't reading everything I say.

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Honestly I don't think that she ever had immunity to fire, it all could had been in her head, while she is with other people she realizes that her lighter isn't infinite. ok its weird that she can craft them, but how can wigfrid do it with gold, rocks, and bare hands make spear or helms? Nothing really makes sense, but it still makes it fun to play.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. I don't care much about realism or lore, sorry.

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I read as much as I can usually in a hurry, but I am still gonna say that they won't change her,

Those are really bad attitudes if you're trying to discuss ideas. Why is it so hard to read everything other people have to say? Why is it so hard to formulate new ideas and insight instead of repeating the same thing?

Seriously, this is probably the third time I had to tell you that a "Suggestions and Feedback" forum exists because we are encouraged to discuss ideas, not to resist change and accept that the devs will not change anything.

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the fire immunity is overpowered and godlike, there were a ton of topics who tried to do the same thing and buff her, but nobody really knew how to, because it would had made her OP. I don't like the immunity back, I like having a little challenge,

I don't know why you keep making absurd statements, then never feel the need to elaborate on them. Why is it overpowered? Why is it godlike? What are those topics? What buffs did they suggest? Why would a simple buff make her overpowered?

I could easily tell you that all of those statements are false because you never bother to explain them.

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btw, what's the point of having immunity? ok maybe if they at least removed the freezing, but what would be her debuff? As many characters has them, she needs one in dst too. If she didn't had the freezing then she would had been unbalanced compared to other characters.

I never said to remove her freezing at low sanity. Again, you made it even more clear that you aren't reading everything I say.

Also, even with the ability to set inventory items on fire removed from DST (this is a singleplayer-only feature), having fire immunity specifically on Willow allows you to take more advantage of her sanity restoration from fires since you can get closer and you could also make traps that make use her fire immunity. Like this, this, and this. Not so pointless after all. Having fire immunity really made her unique from other characters, I don't know why you don't want that.

You say that you know how to play Willow correctly, but it seems ironic that you're against returning her original fire immunity ability which is what made her playstyle different from the other characters'.

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The only thing I could suggest to buff her lighter that as soon as she equips it it woundnt loose 1% durability and maybe for her as a user it would last a bit longer

I believe that this single buff doesn't fix any of Willow's problems. Willow's Lighter is not useful because there's a better and cheaper alternative, a simple Torch.

[JohnWatson]

So, here's an experience I had in-game. Yeah, it's anecdotal, but it's still interesting.

I joined a server from Day 1 as Willow, which I feel is the most optimal day to join at. 3 other players (Wilson, Wigfrid, and WX-78) and I went and made a base.It was a good base, it had a grassland filled with grass, saplings, flowers, bees, to the west, a Birchnut forest with Glommers and lots of Catcoons to the northwest, a desert with Tumbleweeds and the Dragonfly to the north, two sinkholes to the northeast, a swamp full with Tentacles to the east, a savanna filled with Rabbits and Beefalo to the southeast, and a Pig village with the Pig King to the south.

More players joined the base, another Wigfrid and a Wendy. But then, near winter, a Wolfgang player joins. He never speaks to us, but he basically carried us to survival. We had a little shortage of food before he helped us, there's not enough Meatballs for everyone, but whenever he returns to the base, he comes back with two stacks of Monster Meat and some normal Meat too. The Ice Boxes never ran out of Meatballs. We got Scales early because he killed the Dragonfly in the desert, too.

And one day at the base, he just kept crafting as much Telltale Hearts as possible. I'm not even kidding, we had enough Telltale Hearts to make a heart shape on the ground, then even more Telltale Hearts to make second larger heart shape surrounding it. I'm guessing he goes to the caves since he built some Rabbit Hutches and had enough Beard Hair to build eight Meat Effigies. He made enough Umbrellas and Dark Swords for everyone for Spring, but I had to disconnect during Spring because I need sleep.

Anyway, the point is that he seems like a very experienced player who knows what he is doing.

Spoiler

Day 30, and that's not all the Telltale Hearts we had. We had more, enough to surround the heart of Telltale Hearts with a larger heart of Telltale Hearts. Oh, and above the Crock Pots, there are three Drying Racks and around eight Meat Effigies.

The interesting observation I had is that the Wolfgang player just runs around while insane. I'm thinking this is because he's trying to get as much Nightmare Fuel as possible and I see him regularly swinging at the air. I dropped Bernie nearby and it stood up and walked, because I think this may help him. What he did in response was to run up to Bernie, pick it up, and place him inside a chest, then went on to farm more Shadow Creatures. Not even inside a Scaled Chest, he just placed Bernie inside a normal Chest. A few days later, I took Bernie from the chest, then placed him near the Fire Pit. When the Wolfgang player returned to the base, he saw Bernie stand up and walk. The first thing he did was to pick up Bernie, then place it inside a chest again. And then he went on farming more Shadow Creatures without Bernie.

Maybe he just dislikes Bernie's walking animation, or maybe it's because Bernie somehow disrupts with farming Shadow Creatures or at least doesn't contribute at all. Anyway, it really just made me realize that Bernie is less useful than I thought it was, and I already thought that it was useless. Really interesting to see someone discard Bernie while farming Shadow Creatures.

[Pyr0mrcow]

I mean...with me at least, unless there're terrorbeaks (and if latency didn't exist they'd be mostly fine too), it's actually easier fighting them without Bernie redirecting them. So long as shadows are following you, you can basically control their positioning and the timing of their attacks. Better off to save him for people that really need him, or for bosses and similar cases.
That and he doesn't always work and the unpredictability is just aggravating.