Tiggy Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I've been experimenting with underground channels for water and noticed a couple of amusing things the AI does that are a bit dumb. Namely: The Dupe was standing in the channel (in a hole like the one on the left) and build a block on their head that entombed them. XD I think the AI detected that the Dupe was standing in empty space when they weren't. This is an easily duplicated bug since it seems to happen almost every time you build a long section of blocks with a gap under it. Or even, when you try to back-fill empty space. It would be really good if you guys could fix this, but I think I have an even more interesting solution! Especially if you also fix them getting trapped by walling themselves up (maybe a new check to see if where a Dupe is standing when they build a block will prevent them from reaching their next scheduled task would fix it?). The Village Idiot\Total Lemon\Walking Disaster - Negative trait. This dupe is prone to stupid mistakes like walling themselves up underwater and building blocks where their head is. In other words: please fix the AI errors.... but include a negative trait that turns them ALL back on by ignoring the fixes! This new trait seems like a great way to turn a frustrating glitch into something really, really funny. Suddenly that isn't a bug anymore, it's a personality trait! You would get an entombed or trapped warning, and you would go "Oh God it's Kevin/Stacy again, lol, what has s/he done now?". XD And, even better, have Dupes react when the Walking Disaster strikes, such as by panicking or laughing. You could also turn these mistakes back in for all Dupes if they are highly stressed, or haven't been sleeping (etc). And I bet there are other older mistakes that could be added with it. One thing that really should be the case, however, is that (when you try to fix things) Dupes should automatically prioritize deconstructing a block that is entombing a Dupe above all others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MykeMyke Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I think this is a great idea, and which could be expanded upon. Without talking specifics, I am sure the devs have a number of AI routines they have tried in different branches. If they have the ability to verify compatibility to the current branch then Dupes could improve their AI as they level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRou Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 19 minutes ago, MykeMyke said: I am sure the devs have a number of AI routines they have tried in different branches. If they have the ability to verify compatibility to the current branch then Dupes could improve their AI as they level... That is a terrible idea, doing that would mean every time they changed something that affects the AI like adding a new mechanic they would have to do that change and test every single routine individually and make sure they don't break each other. What everyone does is have only one routine with a bunch of nobs to tweak and then just tweak those nobs according to how "smart" or "dumb" they want it to be. This way they only need to care about one routine instead of idk how many so less work in the long run and less likely to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 The AI is only as dumb as the player who issues the commands as I see it. Especially when you have learnt the dupes quirks it is just laziness from the player not using priority buttons that gets dupes stuck, not a fault of the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MykeMyke Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 “Knobs” - let’s just assume those are parameters! You clearly missed the if statement in my post but never mind. I don’t know how the Devs have implemented their subroutines but I’m pretty sure they are capable of determining the effort to implement suggestions of their own accord. AI levelling is something that you would typically implement at the end of a development roadmap for sure - you’re absolutely correct that version control could be challenging. But it really depends on how the behaviour is programmed - some of it is pretty fundamental e.g. dig, build. Pretty unlikely to break anything there, and computationally it’s not expensive because it’s just one call at the front to determine which subroutine to execute given dupe level. Also, quirks are not faults but they are interesting from a mechanics point of view. Which is what the OP said. It’s a shame a super user like yourself has the natural instinct to trash the OP rather than suggest improvements or modifications to support a way forward - let’s be honest the Devs decide not us so we might as well give them options to think about rather than try to downvote things based on incomplete information. All just thoughts - be nicer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 There are definitely two different bugs here, Saturn. One that causes the Dupe to entomb their own head in blocks they build because they detect that they are in open space, and one where they occasionally wall themselves up because they don't pathfind before building. I really don't think it's lazyness to think that if you have 30 Dupes you shouldn't have to babysit and micromanage every singe one every moment. What happens when we have hundreds? However, if the behavior is limited to one or two of them, I think that would add to the game rather than taking away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 8 hours ago, MykeMyke said: ... try to downvote things based on incomplete information. I'm not down voting anything. I'm giving my opinion on the subject. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 You did call the people who would like this fixed 'dumb' and 'lazy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 26 minutes ago, Tiggy said: You did call the people who would like this fixed 'dumb' and 'lazy'. No. I literally did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 Okay then, but it did sound a bit like you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tiggy said: Okay then, but it did sound a bit like you did. That is you reading your own meaning into my words. What I said was that once you learn the in's and out's of the game it is extremely easy to avoid such situations if you spend a little time using the priority tools already in the game. What you can read into that is that I don't personally think it's a necessary feature suggestion as I haven't gotten a single dupe stuck in the last at least 1000 hours of game play. But I don't say anything about the suggestion as such or the people who support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 Okay then, but I don't think having personal work-arounds for bugs means they aren't bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 21 hours ago, Saturnus said: The AI is only as dumb as the player who issues the commands as I see it. Especially when you have learnt the dupes quirks it is just laziness from the player not using priority buttons that gets dupes stuck, not a fault of the AI. It's not really excusable to have AI that manages to entomb itself by building a block over its head, entomb itself by leaping into a block that just has been built or entomb other dupe by building a block over its head when it has no way out. There are behaviors that are acceptable due to lack of obvious fix, such as sealing a wall from the wrong side, jumping to the wrong side of the rock being mined and risking suffocation, deconstructing tile beneath own feet and falling into magma. Entombment isn't one of those - entombment is pretty much a bug. It's especially bad when dupes manage to entomb themselves when building on flat ground, like in OP's pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotenKi Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Saturnas I have to disagree with you, I've played about with the dups, and they go out of there way to make it happen. ie cause trouble. You can't priority around their behavior, now I think they are implemented this way to frustrate the players, and it works really well. But I'd never complain about it because I think the devs have a very smart idea, it is certainly better then frustrating the player with grinding levels. and they are after all a comedy of dups.. All give you an expample in todays game I had a dup sit down and eat his meal before, he used the sink to wash his hands. now it so happens another dup was using the restroom too, but he didn't get out fast enough to not have to wash his hands, so he skimped on washing his hands instead.. since it wasn't a very old game I was paying attention stopped the game and sure enough he was leaving still covered in germs I moved him back behind the sink and let him go again he skimped on the washing of hands and I sent him back agian, he got clean but it took 3 turns at the sink to get clean.. why>? how would you have avoided this action ?? you don't tell them when they can use the restroom you can't tell them where to eat, very easily and it happens all the time.. why? Oh yeah he was only in a hurry to get back to the otherside, where he had nothing to do.. so he got resheduled by the AI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Coolthulhu said: ... After your post I thought about it a bit more. Before I really didn't care about the suggestion as I just saw it as a hilarious bug that added comic relief to the game and some frustration until you learned to handle it, and after that it wasn't a problem any more. So I changed my mind. I now see the bug as an essential part of the games' underlying character. One that must be preserved at all cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr peeps Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 oo oo ive got an idea! how about ALL the dupes have the stupid trait, so the devs dont do anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Saturnus, if you really believe that you should be supporting my idea because it would make it an intrinsic part of the game. My idea is to set it as a personality trait for certain Dupes, which would make this actually funny instead of frustrating for the player. I don't think doubling down and becoming ideological about the bug will help, and I'm pretty sure you saw the bug that way before he posted that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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