Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

Recommended Posts

The 2C3D    578
23 hours ago, The 2C3D said:

I’ve just got to think about what that implies...

Okay, so I've thought about what that implies, and it's kind of neat! It lets me plaster over a few cracks in my ridiculously overcomplicated theories!

For the record, the quotes I'll be referring to below are all Maxwell's. He says:

Spoiler

Pig Ghost: "Do I know you?"

Ancient Statue: "Did I hide something in there...?"

Maxemelion: "It's new"

And later I mention, Abigail's Flower: "Hm? What a familiar presence." I include the line when when it comes up.

We have two quotes from Maxwell that make it quite clear that he knew the Ancestor Pigs and had some part in creating the Ancient Statues...

Compare that to the Maxemelion, which he claims is "new"...

You might already see where I'm going with this, but I'm saying Maxwell created the ancient pig civilization, but NOT the Hamlet we know!

 

And now I get to build upon my crackpot theories! It's time of the Sketchy Leaning Tower of Half-Baked Beta Lore Speculations to get a little taller! So I've been thinking that there is a period between the first Adventure Mode win and the beginning of DST, and if we want to take that idea and run with it, we can say that Maxwell started the Hamlet world, but was dethroned (or he abandoned it) before finishing. The Hamlet would then have been completed by another survivor, the one upon the throne at the time.

If I'm pushing it this far I'll go all the way and guess who made Maxwell's unfinished work into the Hamlet. I'm guessing Wendy because of the Shakespeare she quotes.

And if I'm pushing it that far I may as well use this to tie up a loose end from some previous nonsense I did. Madness ensues:

 

We know from the Cyclum puzzles (thanks again @HaloFTheSun1 for pointing this out) that Wilson, dethroned Maxwell and Charlie dethroned Wilson. The fewest reigns we can possibly have is:

        Maxwell > Wilson > Charlie

Simple enough, right? This is where stuff gets... Into very sketchy 'lore' world...

For my crackpottery to work, we need to add a period between Maxwell and Charlie where other survivors can take the throne, including Wendy, while still keeping Maxwell before Wilson and Wilson before Charlie... This means either Maxwell or Wilson must take the throne twice!

Here's the two ways I can think of to do this:

         Maxwell Reigns Twice:  Maxwell > Anyone > Maxwell > Wilson > Charlie

          Wilson Reigns Twice:   Maxwell > Wilson > Anyone > Wilson > Charlie

 

Keeping up with me? I'm impressed, I hardly can...

The loose end I don't like here is that one of these two people is dumb enough to take the throne TWICE! Why on earth would someone do that?

This is where I use my crackpot theory that Wendy finished Hamlet as an excuse to tie up a lose end in my other crackpottery! I needed a reason to put Wilson or Maxwell back on the throne... Maxwell knows who Wendy is, which we know from one of the William Cartier letters and supported by his Abigail's Flower examination quote "Hm? What a familiar presence."

If Wendy dethrones Maxwell, that gives him a reason to try to take the throne a second time, it gets his niece off, and helps him pay off any sense of debt he may feel to his family. (Remember, we're in sketchy lore here, so we can say things like what he 'may feel' That's what makes it sketchy lore. Borderline headcanon at this point) This means we can have that "Maxwell Reigns Twice" chain of events if Wendy dethroned Maxwell or he otherwise knows that she is on the throne.

Even more unlikely is what ensues if we want to get into the "Wilson Reigns Twice" chain of events. Let's not. Okay I couldn't resist, but I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to remind you that I'm not defending the nonsense in it, even as a sketchy theory:

Spoiler

we have to place the third page of Cyclum after Wilson's first reign, before his second but have the final, fourth page be at the beginning of Charlie's reign, after Wilson's second. Yes, we have to chronologically disconnect the pages of Cyclum, which mean EXTRA, EXTRA SKETCHY "THEORIES" ENSUE! Yay! After Wilson explains the circumstances of he dethroning, Maxwell explains to him who displaced him (remember how this all ties into Wendy?) and convinces Wilson to retake the throne, relying on a LOT of goodwill from Wilson he hasn't earned. This is so unlikely, I even had to put the word theory in heavy quotes and I will not back it up, even though it technically doesn't contradict anything. I think. Tell me if you find a flaw so I can purge this from my mind.

 

This is unlikely to turn out to be entirely canon, but at least one thing has come of this:

headcannon.png.3363419c57a18c5b78aebe17b5628791.png

 

 

Do insane people know they're insane? 'Cause I've had Ragtime running through my head for a while, and I think it drove me crazy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pedregales    353

@The 2C3D I believe you are "close", but you got too complicated. We already know there are multiple dimensions, that means, there are dimensions where Wilson stayed on the throne (Charlie didn't intervene), also dimensions where Wendy or any of the other characters took the throne.

The one thing I like about your theory is the possibility that Hamlet was "created" by Wendy, meaning this is a "Constant" dimension ruled by her (and honestly makes sense considering all the Shakespearean, and all the deadly plants, which is a huge theme for Wendy). This also means Shipwrecked is a dimension ruled by a character or entity other than Maxwell. The Gorge and The Forge are also very likely dimensions of The Constant ruled by other characters/entities (Pugna bears an amazing resemblance to Wolfgang, and The Gnaw is a picky-eater that never sleeps and can transform things like Wickerbottom), problem is, that I think is already confirmed they are not "part" of The Constant.

EDIT: I didn't mention Reign of Giants because I think it is still ruled by Maxwell, but I might be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 2C3D    578

@pedregales I’m hoping we get more clarification in the Reforge or Hamlet, but in the meantime, I am was little reluctant to jump to multiple nightmare thrones. The implications of that are going to take a while to work out. Perhaps I’ll make that my next exploration of very sketchy lore...

I hadn’t thought of Hamlet or Shipwrecked being other worlds like the Forge or Gorge, that actually makes life a lot easier, is we’ve already accepted multiple Maxwells...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MasterWolf    236
49 minutes ago, The 2C3D said:

Okay, so I've thought about what that implies, and it's kind of neat! It lets me plaster over a few cracks in my ridiculously overcomplicated theories!

For the record, the quotes I'll be referring to below are all Maxwell's. He says:

  Reveal hidden contents

Pig Ghost: "Do I know you?"

Ancient Statue: "Did I hide something in there...?"

Maxemelion: "It's new"

And later I mention, Abigail's Flower: "Hm? What a familiar presence." I include the line when when it comes up.

We have two quotes from Maxwell that make it quite clear that he knew the Ancestor Pigs and had some part in creating the Ancient Statues...

Compare that to the Maxemelion, which he claims is "new"...

You might already see where I'm going with this, but I'm saying Maxwell created the ancient pig civilization, but NOT the Hamlet we know!

 

And now I get to build upon my crackpot theories! It's time of the Sketchy Leaning Tower of Half-Baked Beta Lore Speculations to get a little taller! So I've been thinking that there is a period between the first Adventure Mode win and the beginning of DST, and if we want to take that idea and run with it, we can say that Maxwell started the Hamlet world, but was dethroned (or he abandoned it) before finishing. The Hamlet would then have been completed by another survivor, the one upon the throne at the time.

If I'm pushing it this far I'll go all the way and guess who made Maxwell's unfinished work into the Hamlet. I'm guessing Wendy because of the Shakespeare she quotes.

And if I'm pushing it that far I may as well use this to tie up a loose end from some previous nonsense I did. Madness ensues:

 

We know from the Cyclum puzzles (thanks again @HaloFTheSun1 for pointing this out) that Wilson, dethroned Maxwell and Charlie dethroned Wilson. The fewest reigns we can possibly have is:

        Maxwell > Wilson > Charlie

Simple enough, right? This is where stuff gets... Into very sketchy 'lore' world...

For my crackpottery to work, we need to add a period between Maxwell and Charlie where other survivors can take the throne, including Wendy, while still keeping Maxwell before Wilson and Wilson before Charlie... This means either Maxwell or Wilson must take the throne twice!

Here's the two ways I can think of to do this:

         Maxwell Reigns Twice:  Maxwell > Anyone > Maxwell > Wilson > Charlie

          Wilson Reigns Twice:   Maxwell > Wilson > Anyone > Wilson > Charlie

 

Keeping up with me? I'm impressed, I hardly can...

The loose end I don't like here is that one of these two people is dumb enough to take the throne TWICE! Why on earth would someone do that?

This is where I use my crackpot theory that Wendy finished Hamlet as an excuse to tie up a lose end in my other crackpottery! I needed a reason to put Wilson or Maxwell back on the throne... Maxwell knows who Wendy is, which we know from one of the William Cartier letters and supported by his Abigail's Flower examination quote "Hm? What a familiar presence."

If Wendy dethrones Maxwell, that gives him a reason to try to take the throne a second time, it gets his niece off, and helps him pay off any sense of debt he may feel to his family. (Remember, we're in sketchy lore here, so we can say things like what he 'may feel' That's what makes it sketchy lore. Borderline headcanon at this point) This means we can have that "Maxwell Reigns Twice" chain of events if Wendy dethroned Maxwell or he otherwise knows that she is on the throne.

Even more unlikely is what ensues if we want to get into the "Wilson Reigns Twice" chain of events. Let's not. Okay I couldn't resist, but I'm putting it in a spoiler tag to remind you that I'm not defending the nonsense in it, even as a sketchy theory:

  Reveal hidden contents

we have to place the third page of Cyclum after Wilson's first reign, before his second but have the final, fourth page be at the beginning of Charlie's reign, after Wilson's second. Yes, we have to chronologically disconnect the pages of Cyclum, which mean EXTRA, EXTRA SKETCHY "THEORIES" ENSUE! Yay! After Wilson explains the circumstances of he dethroning, Maxwell explains to him who displaced him (remember how this all ties into Wendy?) and convinces Wilson to retake the throne, relying on a LOT of goodwill from Wilson he hasn't earned. This is so unlikely, I even had to put the word theory in heavy quotes and I will not back it up, even though it technically doesn't contradict anything. I think. Tell me if you find a flaw so I can purge this from my mind.

 

This is unlikely to turn out to be entirely canon, but at least one thing has come of this:

headcannon.png.3363419c57a18c5b78aebe17b5628791.png

 

 

Do insane people know they're insane? 'Cause I've had Ragtime running through my head for a while, and I think it drove me crazy!

But you are only assuming one reality. I think there are multiple universes/ realities/ planes / realms (whatever you want to call it), and every time you start a game in the original DS, you are actually creating a new universe. Every character you play with in DS and DST comes from a different universe, and in DST, the Florid Postern functions as a gateway that brings people from other universes into that current one. The Celestial Portal sends the individual activating it back to their own universe, and brings someone in from another universe. If there wasn't magic in the game, I would call the Florid Postern and Celestial Portals inter-dimensional gateways / wormholes.

This can also explain the multitude of skins that are available in DST and why there is a portal animation when exiting the wardrobe. In addition to the trade-inn animation of the shadow hand, using the skins as a sort of "sacrificial offering" to open up a new portal in order for a new skin to come out. I think all skins carry some sort of "shadow magic" in them, as you get them from opening up presents with shadow hands. So essentially every time a skin drop, you open up a portal to an alternate dimension in order to get a skin.

If Wendy did indeed create / finish Hamlet, then it might have been the Wendy of the realities in which she freed Maxwell and took over the Throne for a while until Charlie freed her. And when bringing a new Wendy into that world, she might feel some unconscious connection to the things she created.

In my opinion, I think all the building blocks for the worlds were already there, it's just that whoever is in the Throne is able to reshape them according to their will. And I think the Throne is a conscious entity that needs a living being to survive, kind of like a parasite. I think that is why we see Maxwell suffering while in the throne. And when there is no one to "feed it", it all just crumbles away, into the void, like Maxwell says in the epilogue. In addition to this, there is the time discrepancy between worlds, Maxwell also says this in the epilogue. So he could have created Hamlet's ancient pig society, and because of the time discrepancy, the world completely changed while he was away.

Another theory of mine is that all the survivors and Charlie were trapped by aliens, and "copies" of them are forced to go through the "survival simulator". They are being copied in a similar way to Black Mirror's "White Christmas" episode. This way, every time you create a new game in DS, you are creating a copy of the survivor that you picked. The whole purpose of these simulations is to study the complexity of humanity, in order to understand them better. This is why Maxwell says that he does not understand the beings (he refers to them as "them"), that they just watch him.  Every choice, action, word, gives these aliens a better idea as to how humans really are. They even put the ultimate test, of saving the person that trapped you ("allegedly") in this world, so his suffering can end. An alien programmer realizes the horrible things that are happening, and decides to make Charlie more aware of what is going on, and give her the means so she can help her fellow survivors. With every event, Charlie is opening the way, for the different worlds that were created (The aliens would have definitely not just "studied" human, there must have been numerous species that were trapped), to be connected so that they can all one day find a way out.

But anyways, this is just conjecture since we don't have all the facts from Klei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 2C3D    578

@MasterWolf

There are multiple realities, but there only seems to be one throne. We might find out about more thrones in Reforge but in the meantime... We’ll have to make do with only one. I think...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Demon874    76

Maybe and this is just my thoughts but the Hamlet people are somewhat like the ancient civilization people.

The ancient ones used fuel to create their city but the overuse doomed them.

Maybe the Hamlet pigs used fuel to create their city and enhanced their intelligence but somehow they were cutoff from the fuel which avoid their destruction.

Maybe but i'm not sure the king pig came from hamlet since hamlet is just part of the constant, there no need use of gateways unlike Elder bog, you can escape Elder bog but only merms have done so.

Hamlet = Machu picho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 2C3D    578
9 hours ago, Maximus_A_874 said:

Maybe and this is just my thoughts but the Hamlet people are somewhat like the ancient civilization people.

The ancient ones used fuel to create their city but the overuse doomed them.

Maybe the Hamlet pigs used fuel to create their city and enhanced their intelligence but somehow they were cutoff from the fuel which avoid their destruction.

Maybe but i'm not sure the king pig came from hamlet since hamlet is just part of the constant, there no need use of gateways unlike Elder bog, you can escape Elder bog but only merms have done so.

 

I’ve also been thinking like Hamlet is part of the constant, closer then the F/Gorge...

And fuel is a well-known cause of civilization ruination. I hope we get access to the “Ancient” tab. If there’s some kind of ancient pseudoscience station in the pig ruins, that’ll give the Nightmare Fuel guess a lot more weight. We’ll have to wait and see...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites