Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 From physics we know, that boiling 10kg of 76 C oil takes 10000g * ((400K-76K)*1.69 J/g/K +(539K-400K)*1.76 J/g/K = 7.9 megajoules. We also know, that cooling 10kg of 540 C natural gas with oil to 76 C generates 10000g * (539K-76K) * 2.191 J/g/K = 10.2 megajoules. So we know, that this reaction is exothermic and prone to massive thermal runaway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_runaway I designed a cooker based on those principles above. It worked earlier this week. What should be happening, without outside cooling, is the reaction should be increasing and eventually oilpipes should go above 400K and explode. What happens instead is, the reaction dies out at around 1600 kilograms oil processed. I made a savefile with all the added cooling disabled. I am interested if anybody can debug, why the heat disappears? @Kasuha, @Kabrute, @Lifegrow, Some one else? Any help appreciated, on how to remove the heat deletion. Savefile + screenshot: cooking plate buggy.sav Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I am at work so I cannot check, is there any chance that mass is being deleted? If so this could be a reason. Or it could be some form of that stupid bug where pipes miraculously change temperature, I find it stops at around 232-272 degrees celcius If this is colder than your gas it would also explain heat deletion. (I found that I have not had this happen with tungsten pipes yet) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1049958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Having done some work on this myself I can say that transition phasing seems to delete about 3c/kg/transition so your exothermic reaction rides its higher specific heat value and floats against that loss for a little bit. It is more noticeable in steam and Lox builds, the fluids coming out of condensation are cooler than they should be by marginal amounts but it adds up in each case to very close to 3c/kg/transition in my testing... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1049961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, BlueLance said: Or it could be some form of that stupid bug where pipes miraculously change temperature, I find it stops at around 232-272 degrees celcius If this is colder than your gas it would also explain heat deletion. (I found that I have not had this happen with tungsten pipes yet) This is what I am observing on my goldpipes. Interesting idea that it would not happen with tungsten. Other thing is, If we lose 3K /g/transition its irrelevant. The gas comes out at 813 - or 810K, the reaction would still be massively exothermic. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1049970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 Could it be tempshift deconstruction induced Black hole? If so, how to observe it & how to remove it? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Carnis said: eventually oilpipes should go above 400K Assume we have 1 kg natural gas, and 1 kg oil, and they are in same temperature. Obviously natural gas has more heat than oil. Is it possible for natural gas to heat oil to a higher temperature? Obviously not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, R9MX4 said: Assume we have 1 kg natural gas, and 1 kg oil, and they are in same temperature. Obviously natural gas has more heat than oil. Is it possible for natural gas to heat oil to a higher temperature? Obviously not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics not relevant, our gas is constantly heated by the magma, so the temperatures are never equal. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoma_Nosme Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Could the auto doors delete some net heat when opening and closing? To put it in other words. Do auto doors keep the temp they had while closed when they open and close again? I never tried it out but now that you say that there is a heat disappearing zone and the doors are just next to it , And they are metal...idk I'm 99% wrong but anyways my 2cents Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLance Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Im pretty sure they retain their temperature when open, but they would absorb a fair amount of heat up until they are the same temp as the gas Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoma_Nosme Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I have another idea...your heat transfer calculation is linear or the expectation is linear. Could the heat transfer be logarithmic? Like logarithmic mean temperature difference? Here's a sketch of what was going on in my mind... The heat disappearing zone starts where the graphs start to go apart Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 I was able to add a mini blackhole that disappeared after loading, but its mass deletion did not make any difference. Earlier this week it did work, and I did boil 8000kg water, as the outside coolant. I had 2 identical setups, where the other vented gas whenever pressure was above 20kg, and oil was added if pipe temp went above 300 or the cook chamber had no liquid. The other version only vented gas if pressure was above 20kg and there was no liquid on the chamber. The latter design is on the savefile. The latter saved 50K/magmatile earlier, now the whole process just shuts down. I am observing extreme temp changes on the pipes on the heat dissipation zone and the temp of the radiant pipes always equals the temp of The gas, thats a clue.. but I tried normal pipes & it did not help. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 Same cooker, previous ONI build. Added cooling. 4 tiles of magma powersource. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoma_Nosme Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The only real difference between the two are the tempshift plates in the chamber... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnis Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Yoma_Nosme said: The only real difference between the two are the tempshift plates in the chamber... Game engine / performance improvements is the difference. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/91964-where-does-the-heat-go-in-my-ng-machine/#findComment-1050184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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