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Theorycrafting Debug Building vs Practical


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Alot of the builds I've been seeing appear to be debug menu based, where you clear a space, build all your components without time requirements/materials/etc.

 

It did make me wonder, what are the experiences of you guys that fiddled with these builds in the practical game sense, where you have to research them up, train the peeps to clear out the space/build/etc and can designs be built (in terms of peeps reaching the locations) in a timely fashion?  If this were to be approached from a conventional build/progression do you guys keep the colony low tech until you have enough guys to do it at once, piecemeal it?  Like what I'm noticing (especially with the occupations) research nowadays seems to be my chokepoint, where you could get a high ranked researcher from the beginning and just crank it, its a bit slower and you run into issues about too high a tier equals more unhappy.

 

 

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Well I see it this way:

The debug builds are very good for prove of concept. But as the same in our world you have to consider byproducts and side effects and deal with them.

Example (Our world): You want to measure the exhaust gases from combustion engines with a machine. The measuring principle (NDIR) is simple but all combustion engines produce water which you dont want to have in the measure chamber so you need to remove or minimize it before it reaches the measure chamber or it will break.

In ONI for example: "Painting vacccum" in DEBUG means "pumping gas" in NON DEBUG and leaving the pump in the room. Its a different approach and mind set.

My biggest contoversial I have is with electrolyzer oxygen production system.

As I see it there are two main concepts (Please correct if Im wrong):

Both seemed to aim to eliminate the gas filter to save power, separate the oxygen and hydrogen via room construction or door pumping and let self power it.

1. Using one hydrogen pump and releasing the O2 through its the heavier gas.

2. Using two pumps (one for O2, one for H2 controlled via atmo sensor)

Lets assume you have one elctrolyzer your usage efficiency would be:

1. max usage of H2 and max usage of O2 and heat from the production itself meaning you have to think of a way to cool the area (mostly the vault). I dont like that because I try to reduce heat production in my vault and I want the space in my vault for something else.

2. max usage of H2, only 500g of 888g O2 is used. To maximize efficiency you need at least one additional pump more. So it is only good to replace a deoxydizer and its power usage.

With all this in mind I just build a small room to fit in 2 electrolyzers, 2 gas pumps and one gas filter. A hydrogen generator and coal generator outside the room on top. The coal generator attached to a smart battery to kicks in when hydrogen is low. The O2 is pumped into vault and at the exit point one/two wheezewort to contol the heat.

So it is a compromise of both but easy to set up, small(9 tiles wide, 6 tiles high including walling) straight forward, flexible and reliable. Power usage is minimal.

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If this were to be approached from a conventional build/progression do you guys keep the colony low tech until you have enough guys to do it at once, piecemeal it

Yes I stay on low tier tech until I have researched everything, stablized quality food production(usually mushrooms fried and omlette), combine my early water sources in one tank, man/woman/duplican up my staff to 10-12, build all the anti stress rooms and then bust out with exosuits.

Cheers

mir pink

 

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29 minutes ago, mr pink said:

My biggest contoversial I have is with electrolyzer oxygen production system.

As I see it there are two main concepts (Please correct if Im wrong):

Both seemed to aim to eliminate the gas filter to save power, separate the oxygen and hydrogen via room construction or door pumping and let self power it.

1. Using one hydrogen pump and releasing the O2 through its the heavier gas.

2. Using two pumps (one for O2, one for H2 controlled via atmo sensor)

I prefer a third approach: two electrolyzers, three pumps, internal cooling. Credit for this goes to Saturnus:

I'm using a dumbed-down version of the wheezewortified example later in the thread, with external generators to allow tuning. The key benefit is a 100% predictable air-conditioned oxygen supply: you get 1000g/s, every second - exactly enough to max out a single pipe. Screenshots below:

Spoiler

5af311dc878d1_ScreenShot2018-05-09at4_49_43.thumb.png.21e4a2be82aa1d40fe8d2bd5725e4e59.png

Spoiler

5af3122d7f445_ScreenShot2018-05-09at4_50_18.thumb.png.b0a5a68645d517201d66447a4a3e0580.png

Also, this is super easy to build in survival mode, and it's the most complex machine I find really necessary. It usually takes my 5-6 early-ish-game (cycle 60-70) dupes about 10 cycles start to finish (two three-tile-high "floors", then fill in the walls). The tech and job level can be reached by cycle 25; the limiting factor tends to be abyssalite mining.

 

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I prefer a third approach: two electrolyzers, three pumps, internal cooling. Credit for this goes to Saturnus:

Fine approach, I like that. Thanks!

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Also, this is super easy to build in survival mode, and it's the most complex machine I find really necessary. It usually takes my 5-6 early-ish-game (cycle 60-70) dupes about 10 cycles start to finish (two three-tile-high "floors", then fill in the walls). The tech and job level can be reached by cycle 25;

That is true but I want to critize a few points and I give an example at the end:

[Disclaimer]: All of what Im saying now is my view on how I'd like to see this game and it doesnt mean I find this system useless or unimportant. It is important to look into it and keep it in mind! All of what Im saying is minor "Bla Bla". It is not critical or of huge importanance

1. Investment (wasnt mentioned before but I want to bring it to the table).

2. Scalability (wasnt mentioned before but I want to bring it to the table).

3. Flexibility (was mentioned).

 

1. Investment

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the limiting factor tends to be abyssalite mining

You mentioned it.

It is also an investment in metals and refined metals. To get the wheezworts I tend to see as an investment as well because time is of an essence in the early game and they are rare (I do this too, those are great). In my personal view, I see the used space (in my vault) also as an investment which leads me to scalability.

2. Scalability

As I understand it the system can stable provide 10 dupes (divers lungers and mouth breathers excluded) with O2. When I want more dupes I have to add a deoxydizer(bridging) or another system which leads to more investment.

3. Flexibility

What if your next (stable) water supply is far away (doesnt happen often but what if...)?

You would use PH2O in the area or drain you early water supply. I would do the same.

When I found a reliable source of water I would like to have:

1. A system that has low investment.

2. A system that scales well.

 

With this in mind I have encountered this:

It was made during "Ranching Upgrade Mark I Preview". I was doing some experiment so please excuse the misplaced stables.

Spoiler

5af3373d7f7ff_twosides.thumb.png.3ff4f00fbe8d6f05e5b62b6dab901a0b.png

Im virtually surrounded by slime biome except a bit to the top and left. I was lucky to have a PH2O geyser nearby (this game was lucky in all things) but wheezeworts were a little bit harder to get. Not saying there were none but it took time and only this four.

No problem in the long run but in the early game, I dont know.

Cheers

mr pink

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Personally everything I build in debug, I eventually build in a stream base.

Honestly, i'm somewhat against these ass-clowns that ONLY create stuff for debug theory and never actually implement it - or worse, they don't stress test it for a lengthy period before slapping it on the forums. 

Saying that, nothing is impossible to transfer from debug theory to normal game - just takes more time and patience, and most importantly - forward planning. The problem is, one cockup can potentially take many cycles to fix.

I remember once I had a naptha liquid lock that failed (naptha - the devils spittle) and it ruined my vacuum on a "tunnel" that had taken 30 cycles to prime... Live. Much salt was present that day.

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1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

Honestly, i'm somewhat against these ass-clowns that ONLY create stuff for debug theory and never actually implement it - or worse, they don't stress test it for a lengthy period before slapping it on the forums. 

Main reason I spend so much time on debug and post results is I have a hard time investing in a game that's still not complete (hard to raise fish without a sustainable algae source)

It is true sometimes I jump the gun in my findings and post before realizing there was a problem about 50 cycles down the road.  It's a bad habit I'm trying to fix

Also I have yet found a world seed that contains the 4 things I'm looking for in a long term colony 

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Advice for what sorry ?

Never mind I just want to get back to the topic :).

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Also I have yet found a world seed that contains the 4 things I'm looking for in a long term colony

What are those?

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I was also curious, but as for the OT the builds I promote on here are all practical during normal survival because thats how I play the game and where and how things get done.  I've also got 1200 hours of gameplay logged and an additional 300 hours of forum time over the last 6 months, and its been an education and a half, to the point that I felt comfortable writing up tutorials.  There's a certain level of self satisfaction in seeing some enormous task brought to completion, without any injuries, or the base itself grinding to a halt.

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My biggest non debug build was about 150 cycles. It would have been twice as much if I had not planned it out first in debug.

There honestly isn't anything in debug that can't be built in normal as long as you are using normally available materials and your build operates in normally available temperatures. The real difference is setup time and build steps. The biggest difference between debug and normal builds in my experience is managing gasses and vacuums and there are some tricks for those in normal play.

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15 hours ago, Neotuck said:

Also I have yet found a world seed that contains the 4 things I'm looking for in a long term colony 

I totally get you there, I have this dream seed that I want but have yet to find.  I thought I was close with my current survival base but holy heck, the dormant times on the Steam and Slush are ridiculous......

I agree with @Lifegrow  I've been able to build anything that is presented on the forums in a regular game but it takes a LOT of planning, and patience, extra pieces like pumps in the build, and yes, a little salt.....    

@Neotuck  I enjoy your posts a lot - you always state how long it's been running and honestly I enjoy watching the thread and seeing what happens.    I hope more people start posting MKII post-drip cooling new pipes, new sensors, etc builds soon. 

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15 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

In Lifes case many a piece of salt as he dismantles and rebuilds XD

Listen, I make these mistakes so that you don't have to....

I'm a hero damnit, some say the greatest ginger hero of all time ever.

 

Others say i'm a bearded tool.

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Heh I will add, juuust as I get to the point where I think I understand how to build and arrange stuff, we get an update and I have to learn all over.  Not a bad thing, but at this point I kinda wish I could save Dupes and port over like half a dozen of them early on.

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