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Criticism - Progression Tiers - kill fun!


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Hello Again,

I'm continuing my theme of criticism of the game, not because I hate it ... but because I love it.

 

Let's imagine you actually want to USE the game content whilst playing the game ... well you can't.

 

It is prohibitively, unrealistically, overly, unfunishly convoluted to unlock the Smart storage / Solid transport.

Here is what you need to do

  1. Train a Dupe as researcher in MULTIPLE Tiers of research skills <---- Takes hours
  2. Research through the tech tree to the end Tiers <--- Takes hours
  3. Train a dupe as a general engineer <--- Takes hours
  4. THEN train the same Dupe as a Gopher <--- Takes hours
  5. THEN train the same Dupe as a Courier <--- Takes hours
  6. THEN train the same Dupe Mecatronics engineer
  7. THEN you can get that Dupe to build the "fun" end game Smart storage / Solid transport stuff.

HOLY balls .... are you sadistic!!!

(Additional reminder : You have to do all of the above whilst managing ALL the other things ... and also not dieing)

But wait there's more!

All of the above you'll have to repeat multiple times in separate bases / play sessions .... Because to get "gud" at making use of the "fun" end game tech you need to practice, test and trial different ways of setting it up.  To get maximum value you'll have to start a base with the use of it in mind from the beginning.

 

 

The fun of the game is using the amazing content you Devs produce.  The fun IS NOT trying for hours and hours to access the cool content!!!

It is NOT fun being prevented from using fun and helpful content for hours and hours and hours ... in the hope that sometime in the future you can have a "jolly-fun-time" with the game content.  0.o

 

The challenge of the game is managing all of the cool content, NOT MANAGING WITHOUT the cool content!

 

I've said this before and I stand by it - "The game is too hard."

Some like it hard.  Some like it the way it is.

I caution you game experts who know the ONI Meta to really consider what is best for the game.

I ask you to consider what I'm saying not from your position of expertise, but from a new player perspective or someone who cannot invest enough time to become an expert in ONI Meta!

Lastly I do not ask or request the game be "dumbed down" ... but the game does need to address the difficulty / complexity spikes.

 

Much love.

Gushes of urine.

 

DubbleTwice 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, DubbleTwice said:

Gushes of urine.

Hmkay ^^
Game is not finished and every game needs some sort of grind, to motivate the player to play it.
A big problem i see with playerexperience is the random worldgen.
Starterbiome could make a big difference too (dirt/algae/metal)
For me, tubes piping and shipping stuff, is completely unused, like hand sanitizer and other things.
I see many playthroughs from tubers, who offer a bad tactic for beginners.
When you ask me, if there is to much grind in this game, then my answer is no.
Edit: Here i tested the research time needed, after jobs update.


 

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24 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Everything researched by cycle 36

 

Gushing Urine seems to be the primary product of the bases I produce.  :/

Two reposes

1) Quote "game content completely unused" - mostly because it's locked away behind a "grind-wall".  o.0

2) Part of my concern is that you NEED TO BE and expert to play the game.  You are a "senior member" and have over 1000 posts .... I can see you are an expert.  ... 

I don't think you are trying hard enough to understand how new or non-experts find the game.

My criticism is NOT that you have trouble with difficult / complexity spikes ...

 

I'm talking about the other people ....

 

lol.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, DubbleTwice said:

It is prohibitively, unrealistically, overly, unfunishly convoluted to unlock the Smart storage / Solid transport.

Here is what you need to do

  1. Train a Dupe as researcher in MULTIPLE Tiers of research skills <---- Takes hours
  2. Research through the tech tree to the end Tiers <--- Takes hours
  3. Train a dupe as a general engineer <--- Takes hours
  4. THEN train the same Dupe as a Gopher <--- Takes hours
  5. THEN train the same Dupe as a Courier <--- Takes hours
  6. THEN train the same Dupe Mecatronics engineer
  7. THEN you can get that Dupe to build the "fun" end game Smart storage / Solid transport stuff.

HOLY balls .... are you sadistic!!!

(Additional reminder : You have to do all of the above whilst managing ALL the other things ... and also not dieing)

 

First of all, all of that is optional. It's the cherry on the top of the cake. And you can have all that in about three hours play time, if you really, really want it. It's not even that hard. Assuming you know what you're doing which of course may not be the case. But sorry, I'm not going with your "takes hours and hours and hours and hours...". No, it doesn't. You're just exaggerating.

9 hours ago, DubbleTwice said:

All of the above you'll have to repeat multiple times in separate bases / play sessions .... Because to get "gud" at making use of the "fun"

You know, there are those 'Save' and 'Save As' buttons. You don't need to start from scratch every time if you don't want to.

I don't think there's point to make the game easier by default. I think it will be a good idea to add more generator modifiers for people to make it easier for them when they're learning the game, things like better yield from digging or faster learning. That's for sure. But the default could in my opinion be even harder than it is, since for experienced players the game is not hard at all. And the fun in the game is coming from the game providing the right amount of challenge. Too hard or too easy are not fun. And everyone has their own measure what's hard or easy, and it also changes over time.

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On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 11:17 PM, DubbleTwice said:

It is prohibitively, unrealistically, overly, unfunishly convoluted to unlock the Smart storage / Solid transport.

Here is what you need to do... [snip]

I disagree.   The largest of the hurdles to get there fast is a Mechatronics engineer, but honestly you're going to be way behind on power long before you care about that skill, but I digress.

In about 2.5 cycles (25 minutes standard time) you have your research going at normal speed.  Since you need operator to level up before you can open Mechatronics put them on the hamster wheel that feeds the research power.  Eventually you get some electric and by then they should have moved along to supply jobs... which is what you want the automation to do anyway.

There's tons of supply.  Literally.  This doesn't take THAT long.  Certainly not before you need to start implementing huge transport levels of goods.  Also, those goods only tote 20 kg/second.  I have dupes once they hit that level carrying around 1600kg of this stuff.  Getting them on the automation actually doesn't help much.  On top of that you have major power draws if you're simply trying to container tote a massive mineral dig down to a storage area.  It's not going to get done in a reasonable amount of time.

However, on to the research concerns.  ~day 6 I've usually got two researchers and the base 6 researches done.  However, if you're looking for a straight to Solid Transport build, you'd do Adv Research Day 3, Brute Force Refinement on day 4, Refined Objects on 5.  Then switch over to Power, for Regulation (5-6), Automatic(6), Generic (7), Smart Storage (8), and Solid Transport (9-10).  Hopefully you threw farming in there at some point so you don't starve to death.

My average opening is usually barely on Coal power and all the Meal Lice plants I can find around day 7.  You really don't need ANY of this stuff until much later in the game, long after you've cleaned research out.

What the Solid Transport systems *really* do is allow you to remove the small hand jobs that are all over the place.  Example: Instead of your dupes carrying all your polluted dirt from the sieves back to the compost piles, you can just let the transport system handle that for you.

Bulk transport isn't really part of the picture.  That much power isn't really available until the end game anyway for automation of smaller concentrated systems unless your RNG was lucky.  I really don't understand why you think it needs to be way down the tree.  Now if you wanted to get on about why an air vent is two levels deep on research I would understand.  But this?  Not so much.  You are *hours* away from building it anyway long before your dupes are finished leveling.

If anything, the complex and deep tree for the building of the thing will help newbies keep from trying to take on too much too fast trying to build things with huge amounts of electrical power.  It's kind of like going to the Ruins in Don't Starve before you knew enough ways to keep your sanity from breaking. 

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I like how you add hours to everything, it can all be going on at the same time, Also if you have a good researcher you can complete all research in something like 20 cycles, so 3.3 hours or if your on triple speed 1 hour. you can have multiple researchers researching which reduces this further.

During that time your engineer will be able to be promoted, your miner etc. 

Also, just gonna point this out there, a person with lots of posts doesnt have to play the game to be able to post. so amount of posts has nothing to do with it. Someone asking for advice, help etc can easily rake up a lot of posts, I don't even know where i managed to type over 1000 posts. I also have similar hours to @TheExceed but i have about 10 times his posts.

On 14/04/2018 at 7:17 AM, DubbleTwice said:
  • Train a Dupe as researcher in MULTIPLE Tiers of research skills <---- Takes hours
  • Research through the tech tree to the end Tiers <--- Takes hours
  • Train a dupe as a general engineer <--- Takes hours
  • THEN train the same Dupe as a Gopher <--- Takes hours
  • THEN train the same Dupe as a Courier <--- Takes hours
  • THEN train the same Dupe Mecatronics engineer
  • THEN you can get that Dupe to build the "fun" end game Smart storage / Solid transport stuff.

So your first point, second point, third point can all be done at the same time. Mechatronics does take time, but considering what it does and that you need a pretty established base I do not see how waiting a few hours is a killer. or if you play on triple speed then like two hours. 

Get a dupe who likes their job, it goes by a lot quicker. 

 

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I personally fall into the category of people who like the complexity and depth of the game. The game essentially changes at each “tier”. Though I do see the benefit of “warping” to a given level - it would be cool to have the ability to just start a world at 100, 200, or 500 cycles. Some games do offer abilities to start at advanced levels, maybe we need that option rather than changing all of progression.

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15 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

I personally fall into the category of people who like the complexity and depth of the game. The game essentially changes at each “tier”. Though I do see the benefit of “warping” to a given level - it would be cool to have the ability to just start a world at 100, 200, or 500 cycles. Some games do offer abilities to start at advanced levels, maybe we need that option rather than changing all of progression.

AKA sandbox mode! Which would be cool 

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