Self-Powering Oxygen Module MkII - (Production-And-Cooling)

[Angpaur]

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

That's a bold claim.

Electrolyzer has 2 inputs: power and water. You get constant amount of O2 and H per amount of H2O.

Assuming you're using it to supply O2 and your build doesn't delete hydrogen the "measure how good electrolyzer build is" is amount of O2 per kJ.

That being said standalone electrolyzer without any pumps is most efficient.

Yet it is still possible that standalone electrolyzer will keep getting overpresuriezed so its performance will be lower.

And your post only proves that there is still no common ground to describe how "good" electrolyzer is, because you are talking about efficiency and my post mainly focused on electrolyzers performance.

[martosss]

9 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

That's a bold claim.

Electrolyzer has 2 inputs: power and water. You get constant amount of O2 and H per amount of H2O.

Assuming you're using it to supply O2 and your build doesn't delete hydrogen the "measure how good electrolyzer build is" is amount of O2 per kJ.

That being said standalone electrolyzer without any pumps is most efficient.

up-time also matters

[Grimgaw]

3 minutes ago, martosss said:

up-time also matters

Can you explain to us why?

[martosss]

space efficiency - if you're not running at 100%, you're using those tiles and not producing Power/Oxygen, so you're basically less space efficient - you would need more space to achieve a certain Oxygen/Hydrogen/sec generation rate. Since map size is limited(though map is large), space efficiency should also matter.
Practically it matters, since you need to dig a space before you build and deal with what's in this spce - germs, heat, cold, water...

[Grimgaw]

So it's not up-time but space efficiency now? Having 4 Electrolyzers doted around the base uses the same amount of space as those 3 pump setups, uses the same amount of water per O2 plus some savings on power (480W tops vs 840+ W).

It's amusing how newer members of this community try to reinvent the wheel.

[martosss]

19 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

So it's not up-time but space efficiency now? Having 4 Electrolyzers doted around the base uses the same amount of space as those 3 pump setups, uses the same amount of water per O2 plus some savings on power (480W tops vs 840+ W).

It's amusing how newer members of this community try to reinvent the wheel.

yea, right...

• You can use the Hydrogen? (unless you're building a huge farm at the top of your base, which still wouldn't work, as Hydrogen will pile up and eventually start flowing down) ... so you're at 0% energy efficiency until you start pumping ... and then we'll start measuring how efficient you are... in the meantim no power for your dupes.
• You can charge atmo suits or control Oxygen spread without pumps? I doubt it.
• You don't spend extra on piping? Each electrolyzer needs an input and water sources are limited, so you have to haul water to those 4 places.
• Cooling? - heats itself and surrounddings up to 75°? And cooling 4 places is easier than cooling 1 place?
• Overpressure? - when those 4 electrolyzers stop working, you're worse than my 1 electrolyzer, and they will, since you don't pump the Hydrogen anywhere and you don't control the Oxygen spread, so you'll have 4 light-blue bubbles of Oxygen and red death everywthere else.

[Grimgaw]

OK, so not up-time, not space efficiency, but now we are concerned with pumping the oxygen and hydrogen around? I thought the challenge was electrolyzer efficiency not distribution. That is a separate system.

8 minutes ago, martosss said:

Cooling? - heats itself and surrounddings up to 75°?

@Angpaur design doesn't have cooling.

I can keep adding electrolyzers to combat the 'red death'. And guess what? They'll still use the same amount of water AND power per amount of O2 made.

 

[martosss]

8 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

OK, so not up-time, not space efficiency, but now we are concerned with pumping the oxygen and hydrogen around? I thought the challenge was electrolyzer efficiency not distribution. That is a separate system.

@Angpaur design doesn't have cooling.

I can keep adding electrolyzers to combat the 'red death'. And guess what? They'll still use the same amount of water AND power per amount of O2 made.

He's not interested in the cooling, that's why he doesn't implement and test it. For your real base, though you do need it, unless you're ready to cook your plants, dupes and critters in 50° O2.

I agree on the electrolyzer 100% power and resource efficiency - power and wate is not wasted(unless you delete gases).

The idea is that you need a threshold of minimal control over where O2 and H2 goes, that's why you need to pump it. Probably you're right - you can let it flow in the air and dupes will breath it so the more you let in the air - the more you save on pumping it around. However, making sure that the oxygen travels to the spot where you need it without ventilation is rather tricky, so I wouldn't do it, but you're free to build 1 electrolyzer next to each building if you really want to(or 2! - in case the first one overheats/overpressurizes). That will ensure total electrolization.

[Angpaur]

21 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Angpaur design doesn't have cooling.

Yeah, because it is just a testbed blueprint.

If I would be implementing it in a real colony then one pump would be pumping hot oxygen to atmosuits, second would go through some cooling(2 wheezworts chamber should be enough for 500g packets) and then vented in strategic places in the colony.

Centralized solutions suits me better as it allow more control and also you can always tinker with them. Also it looks better

And as there is no end game in ONI right now, then we just have to chellenge ourselves in some ways to have more fun. Trying to find "best" electrolyzer setup is my chellange. Does it bother you or what is the reason of your critique?

[Grimgaw]

8 minutes ago, martosss said:

I agree on the electrolyzer 100% power and resource efficiency - power and wate is not wasted(unless you delete gases).

Well that went whole circle.  

So now that we established that, when you look at distribution the power efficiency is the only factor. That means not letting gas pumps intake packets smaller that 500g. Something which all these builds focused on max amount O2 per cycle fail at miserably. (Just look at @Angpaur's build - his O2 pumps activate at 200g).

[Angpaur]

4 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Something which all these builds focused on max amount O2 per cycle fail at miserably. (Just look at @Angpaur's build - his O2 pumps activate at 200g).

Bottom pumps pump full 500g packets. You can test it if you like.

Here is save file:

electrolyzer test.sav

[Grimgaw]

2 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

You can test it if you like.

 

Spoiler

Except when they don't?

[martosss]

6 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Well that went whole circle.  

So now that we established that, when you look at distribution the power efficiency is the only factor. That means not letting gas pumps intake packets smaller that 500g. Something which all these builds focused on max amount O2 per cycle fail at miserably. (Just look at @Angpaur's build - his O2 pumps activate at 200g).

As I said above, space also matters, so it's better to make it more compact, if possible. That's why I would choose the 5x5 or 5x6 version vs my older design - it uses much less space and still give you a decent throughput. So you might consider electrolyzer efficiency as Oxygen generated/tile/cycle. This will take into account both space requirements(tiles) + up-time(O2/cycle).

My O2 pumps are set to 100 and still pump full packets most of the time. They stop every 5-10 seconds for 1-2 seconds and then start again running at full packets.

Your point regarding pressure 200g is irrelevant as it matters greatly where the sensor and pumps are placed with respect to the electrolyzer. When the sensor is "behind" the pumps, i.,e. further away from the electrolyzer, it's only logical to have lower pressure activating the pumps.

However, I do agree with the 500g packet size remark. There I'd argue that because of automation it matters how long the pump works between pauses. When stopping because of automation it wastes a part the last packet, so making it stop more often is more inefficient. That's why it's nice to have a sensor + logic on the Hydrogen pump and let it work for 10 seconds, then stop until pressure rises and repeat, as the pump is much faster than 1 electrolyzer.

[Angpaur]

If you point me toa solution solving last packet problem than I  would gladly use it.

However I've never seen so far any.

And reaching maximum performance means you also have more hydrogen, which you can spend to make more power, so those last smaller packets probably are compensated and even may be possible you gain some more power. However I don't have a good idea how to measure that.

[Grimgaw]

13 minutes ago, martosss said:

So you might consider electrolyzer efficiency as Oxygen generated/tile/cycle.

So back to space efficiency? Again, strategically placed electrolyzers will win any day. Electrolyzer IS 100% efficient. 

Might I remind you and everyone that efficiency is measured by output/input. In electrolyzer's case output=input=> output/input=1=100%.

All you can do is optimize distribution, and we agreed on 500g remark.

[martosss]

17 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

If you point me toa solution solving last packet problem than I  would gladly use it.

Use a ****storm of electrolyzers and 2 ****storms of pumps, so they output/input perfectly (if I remember correctly 125 electrolyzers and 250 pumps, 28 Hydrogen ). And I hope you don't use it!

17 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

However I've never seen so far any.

eh, I wonder why!

17 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

And reaching maximum performance means you also have more hydrogen, which you can spend to make more power, so those last smaller packets probably are compensated and even may be possible you gain some more power. However I don't have a good idea how to measure that.

If you measure strictly depending on water usage)(as water is the bottleneck), each packet <300g is a loss. But it's a small loss. It accumulates to ~10-20kJ/cycle(300-310kJ pump energy instead of 288kJ), which is ... 5-10%. I'm willing to work with that number.

Of course, you can be hyper efficient and let electrolyzers run free and just gather the Hydrogen with a pump on the roof - that would be the best. However, that means you use O2 purely for out-of-atmo-suit breathing/feeding respective pufts(tier 3) for O2 storage(though you lose 5% there). and you must ensure proper electrolyzer distribution. + it costs more materials(for electrolyzer + piping +wires+infrastructure) and can give you spikes in Power/water usage.

My main issue is keeping the Hydrogen from flying everywhere, as it will get stuck in a dark corner and just sit there and make your dupes miserable.

6 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

So back to space efficiency? Again, strategically placed electrolyzers will win any day. Electrolyzer IS 100% efficient. 

Might I remind you and everyone that efficiency is measured by output/input. In electrolyzer's case output=input=> output/input=1=100%.

All you can do is optimize distribution, and we agreed on 500g remark.

Again, if you consider the space required for all those electrolyzers in a big base, your setup will lose, since it has to supply enough O2 in each place of the base + not let Hydrogen gather anywhere.

Also you're limited to no atmo suits and no ventilation for farms ... so can you comment how you deal with that in your case? Let dupes walk on Lava/volcanoes/meteor's surface?

[Grimgaw]

40 minutes ago, martosss said:

eh, I wonder why!

Oh look, a wiki pic from last year. It gives you so much pressure that your dupes will have constantly popped eardrums from all the O2. 

This game was in public Alpha back in Feb last year. You really won't invent anything new in O2 game. Sorry.

40 minutes ago, martosss said:

Also you're limited to no atmo suits and no ventilation for farms ... so can you comment how you deal with that in your case? Let dupes walk on Lava/volcanoes/meteor's surface?

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

I have 4 of these in my base for 24 dupes. There's cooling, no packets below 500g ever (H2 sensor at 800g, O2 at 700g), there's over-pressure switch off on both H2 and O2 pipes. 

[Oozinator]

2 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

You really won't invent anything new in O2 game. Sorry.

But it's fun to watch ^^
Never forget the Perlator MK 2 mini, most famous system evah!

 

[martosss]

14 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Never forget the Perlator MK 2 mini, most famous system evah!

A true pearl! Same as the IRL thing - pretty and useless? You should make a necklace of those and sell it.

[Oozinator]

9 minutes ago, martosss said:

A true pearl! Same as the IRL thing - pretty and useless? You should make a necklace of those and sell it.

My grandma told me, perlator is smart and the IRL thing too.
But instead of discussing with you unfriendly thing, i present you a flower.

[martosss]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

I have 4 of these in my base for 24 dupes. There's cooling, no packets below 500g ever (H2 sensor at 800g, O2 at 700g), there's over-pressure switch off on both H2 and O2 pipes. 

So you have how many diver's lungs do you have?16? that will pump 500g of O2 and over-pressure, which means you can sustain 5 normal  dupes/such setup, so 20 for 4 ...

I'm still curious to see the last packet of each pump's work cycle. Is it 500?

So given that you can only pump 500/888 of the output, this will also be your up-time(56.(306)%).I assume you're using 22 tiles for the sake of the argument(number of tiles that need to be surrounded). That means you have 56/22 efficiency ~ 2.5% O2 generation/tile efficiency.
The upper versions have 100%/22 = 4.54% O2 generation/tile efficiency.

See the difference? More than 50% So 2 of my setups will produce more than 3 of yours in the same amount of space for the same amount of time.

16 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

My grandma told me, perlator is smart and the IRL thing too.
But instead of discussing with you unfriendly thing, i present you a flower.

Thanks for the parachute? It's really ... Blooming? Now you got me curious - what the perlator's O2 generation / tile is ? Any data on O2 generation speed?

PS. Even the picture is named para.jpg!

And why are you offended? I compared it to pearls! They're highly valued and very beautiful!

Here, to make you feel better, I'll say that my SPOM tank is big, fat, ugly and inefficient.(and I mean it, it is!)

Spoiler

 

[Grimgaw]

It's like a broken record with you. Great you're space efficient on 256x384 tile map (yes that's over 98k tiles). Good job. As long as it works for you. 

 

[martosss]

6 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

It's like a broken record with you. Great you're space efficient on 256x384 tile map (yes that's over 98k tiles). Good job. As long as it works for you.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the discussion(those designs are interesting) and agree, that the 3-pump design is not optimal if you consider the oxygen for out-of-suit-breathing/feeding it to pufts. I'm just trying to compare designs on different criteria. I'm showing you mine with what I think are its benefits, you're free to discuss them with me and propose better ones.

[Angpaur]

@Grimgaw I already tested 2 pumps desings - they cause hydrogen deletion. And you have 4 of them...

You should check if yours delete hydrogen too.

[Kabrute]

if you find any system deleting gasses then please post a bug report with save file.  Thank you