Why Steam geysers may not be sustainable (with wheeze wort).

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, chemie said:

So if I set the valve to 2 kg/s, and set a bridge on the outlet so any cold water I don't use just gets vented back, this should be close enough to automatic.  I just didnt like fighting the thing based on demand.

That's not quite how it works. If you set input valve to 2kg/s, then the local aquatuner loop sees 10kg/s constantly. And the output is always the same as the input valve setting, so 2kg/s output.

The output must not block for any reason, so you need a buffer pipe or overflow buffer. 

It is advisable to bring the input valve setting down in steps. Start with 5kg/s and when output temps are stable go to 3.333kg/s, then 2.5kg/s, before going to 2kg/s.

[Le0n1des]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It is advisable to bring the input valve setting down in steps. Start with 5kg/s and when output temps are stable go to 3.333kg/s, then 2.5kg/s, before going to 2kg/s

Could you please elaborate on that? I thought you should start on low setting to attain faster initial cooling and gradually bring the setting up...

[Saturnus]

Just now, Le0n1des said:

Could you please elaborate on that? I thought you should start on low setting to attain faster initial cooling and gradually bring the setting up...

It might spike to extremely low temperatures and break the pipes if you cold start it like that.

There's several things that can go wrong. The input water the pump picks up might not be the right temperature. And feedback loops generally needs a bit of time to stabilize, in the game as well as in real life.

[chemie]

So d

4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

It might spike to extremely low temperatures and break the pipes if you cold start it like that.

There's several things that can go wrong. The input water the pump picks up might not be the right temperature. And feedback loops generally needs a bit of time to stabilize, in the game as well as in real life.

So does one tuner with 2kg net with feedback config use same power as 5 tuners with 2 kg flow?

[clickrush]

3 minutes ago, chemie said:

So does one tuner with 2kg net with feedback config use same power as 5 tuners with 2 kg flow?

1 tuner with merged packets of 10kg and a 2kg valve uses 1.2kW / (10kg/2kg) = 0.24kW power and has a throughput of 2kg at -14°C.

5 tuners with 2kg flow in series w/o a feedback loop use 1.2kW * 5 = 6kW of power and have a throughput of 2kg at -14°C * 5 = -70°C.

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, clickrush said:

1 tuner with merged packets of 10kg and a 2kg valve uses 1.2kW / (10kg/2kg) = 0.24kW power and has a throughput of 2kg at -14°C.

That would be 2kg/s at -70C actually, and it uses 1200W. That's why feedback loops are so great when you have don't need the full throughput. Try it.

[clickrush]

6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

That would be 2kg/s at -70C actually, and it uses 1200W. That's why feedback loops are so great when you have don't need the full throughput. Try it.

Oh right you don't pre merge the packets after you valve them sorry. The powerefficiency is the same but you scale up the cooling effect.

I don't actually know when to use this since I usually control aquatuners with temperature and not with mass. But the design is just ultra nice.

I assume this might be useful when trying to cut air pumps with regulators as you can increase the thermal mass throughput without adding pumps. So a single pump with a regulator and a feedback will move the same amount of heat watts as 2 pumps with a regulator. Cool stuff!

[chemie]

10 hours ago, Saturnus said:

That would be 2kg/s at -70C actually, and it uses 1200W. That's why feedback loops are so great when you have don't need the full throughput. Try it.

But the 5 tuners only run 20% of the time...they only run when they get a 10 kg packet 

[Saturnus]

31 minutes ago, chemie said:

But the 5 tuners only run 20% of the time...they only run when they get a 10 kg packet 

Not unless something has changed since yesterday.

And if they do then that's obviously a bug that needs to be fixed. Many systems are controlled directly by the fact that you can have a continuous stream of less than 10kg/s packets. If that results in erratic behaviour from the aquatuner then many common designs using them will stop to function entirely.

[Kasuha]

33 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Not unless something has changed since yesterday.

Has this changed recently? As far as I remember, the only things capable of merging into pipe were bridges and valves, all other buildings always required the output pipe segment empty to work.

[SkunkMaster]

1 minute ago, Kasuha said:

Has this changed recently? As far as I remember, the only things capable of merging into pipe were bridges and valves, all other buildings always required the output pipe segment empty to work.

afaik this is still the case, even with as little as 50g, my natgas gens stated the pipe was blocked, 1 pipe fixed that.

[Saturnus]

13 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Has this changed recently? As far as I remember, the only things capable of merging into pipe were bridges and valves, all other buildings always required the output pipe segment empty to work.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? 

What @chemie said above, if I understand him correctly, is that the aquatuner only starts working when it sees a full 10kg/s packet, and presumably stacks up lesser packets inside until it reaches that. If that is the case, then that is a definite game altering change. 

[Kasuha]

13 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

What @chemie said above, if I understand him correctly, is that the aquatuner only starts working when it sees a full 10kg/s packet, and presumably stacks up lesser packets inside until it reaches that. If that is the case, then that is a definite game altering change. 

The way understood it was - if you chain 5 aquatuners and send sufficient supply on their input but only draw 2 kg/s from the output, they'll be making single step every 5 seconds, i.e. reaching equivalent power consumption as your feedback loop.

Of course limiting the flow before the aquatuners would not do the trick.

[chemie]

3 hours ago, Kasuha said:

The way understood it was - if you chain 5 aquatuners and send sufficient supply on their input but only draw 2 kg/s from the output, they'll be making single step every 5 seconds, i.e. reaching equivalent power consumption as your feedback loop.

Of course limiting the flow before the aquatuners would not do the trick.

This is what I meant....are they equivalent since 5 would be easier to have flow vs feedback which can freeze easily.  In game (TU), you could see them start and stop as they built 10 kg of inventory 

[Kasuha]

30 minutes ago, chemie said:

This is what I meant....are they equivalent since 5 would be easier to have flow vs feedback which can freeze easily.  In game (TU), you could see them start and stop as they built 10 kg of inventory 

Both have their advantages and their drawbacks. The loopback is actually safer - if a single colder packet comes to the chain of five aquatuners, the chain wil break. If the same packet comes to the loopback, there's good chance it will handle it with just small decrease of temperature on output for a while. The loopback doesn't even have problem if it blocks on output, but it will break very fast if the input dries out. The chained aquatuners are more sensitive to temperatuire fluctuations on input but won't mind empty input pipe.

[Saturnus]

And there's the obvious logistics of 5 series connected aquatuners. Lot's more material cost and space requirement. Not to mention you all of a sudden have to accommodate intermittent 6KW power draws instead of a steady 1200W. Though I suppose you could make automation to ensure each are turned on for an equally short time, one after another but that's just getting silly trying to avoid the obviously better feedback solution.