Near-Vacuum Hydrogen Airlock

[StroamCR]

Edit: See my third post in this thread for the near-vacuum setup of this airlock, which is impervious to almost any realistically achievable high or low pressure, and is also very good at thermal insulation.

 

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been mentioned before - I haven't seen it anywhere and a brief forum search didn't turn anything up either.

I came up with a passive airlock design that keeps different gases perfectly separated without any power use or (to my knowledge) gas deletion. It utilizes the fact that gases separate due to gravity and that two gases can't occupy the same location at the same time.

 

As you can see the chlorine and oxygen on either side of the ladders will never mix. Spaces 5 and 6 will fluctuate, but unless the pressure difference between the gases is extreme, the chlorine and oxygen will never get up to 3 and risk spilling over into the other room. Furthermore, the hydrogen will never get below 5 or 6 and risk spilling upwards into either room, unless one of the rooms is very low pressure. I chose hydrogen to fill 1-4 because it is the lightest gas in the game, and therefore won't be displaced no matter what gases are being separated by the airlock. Also, the hydrogen is necessary to separate gases that have the same or similar densities such as oxygen and polluted oxygen. In the above example it is also necessary to prevent carbon dioxide from being exhaled into the chlorine room, which would eventually occur if 1-4 were filled with oxygen.

Building this airlock in an actual game is quite simple:

Simply pump hydrogen from an electrolyzer setup into the middle room up to an appropriate pressure, then deconstruct A and B and build ladders in their places.

 

Advantages of this design:

1. Zero gas bleed across the airlock

2. No power draw

3. No dup wait time for airlock cycling

4. No soggy feet or drenched debuff

5. Can separate rooms with substantial pressure differences. You would think that high pressures would compress the hydrogen into fewer spaces than 1-4, but testing revealed that a hydrogen pressure of 1000g was able to separate a chlorine room at 10kg from an oxygen room at 200g. Therefore, only the extreme pressures that are creating by polluted oxygen accumulating over polluted water, or natural gas produced by oil well back pressure, could realistically cause this airlock to fail. Edit: upon further testing, it turns out that even a pressure of 150,000kg will not push hydrogen at 1.1 grams out of space #2. High pressure will not realistically cause the airlock to fail.

 

Disadvantages/limitations of this design:

1. Slightly longer dup travel time because they have to climb and descend the ladders

2. Cannot thermally isolate rooms. Edit: see my more recent posts for the near-vacuum setup, which is extremely effective at thermally isolating the two rooms.

 

Enjoy! I hope you can put this design to good use.

[StroamCR]

So after further testing it seems that high pressure is not an issue for this design. I was successfully able to separate chlorine gas at 10,000kg (yes that's ten thousand kilograms) from oxygen at 10 grams. No matter what the pressure difference between the chlorine and the hydrogen, the hydrogen apparently cannot be forced out of space #2.

What does seem to matter is low pressure, because the hydrogen can end up spilling out into the low pressure room. In the test above, I had the hydrogen pressure at 50 grams in order for it not to spill out into the 10 gram oxygen room.

[SackMaggie]

more disadvantages is you can't drop air pressure

When it drop hydrogen will eventually leaked out and leave you just 1 tile (No.1) when you rises pressure

or pressure other side is too much push your hydrogen up to 1 tile

so i prefer water lock + atmo suit combo

[StroamCR]

1 hour ago, SackMaggie said:

more disadvantages is you can't drop air pressure

When it drop hydrogen will eventually leaked out and leave you just 1 tile (No.1) when you rises pressure

or pressure other side is too much push your hydrogen up to 1 tile

so i prefer water lock + atmo suit combo

 

Well like I said in my most recent post, the hydrogen won't be pushed up by a high-pressure side in realistic scenarios. I was able to get the hydrogen to be deleted in one of my tests, but that was with a hydrogen density at 100mg, against a chlorine density of 10kg. Low pressure is a concern, but I've been testing out different setups, and if you are able to get the hydrogen density to around a few grams (which is realistically achievable), it shouldn't spill into either room, and neither room will push past it.

 

So I guess the best arrangement for this then, is more like a hydrogen near-vacuum airlock, where the hydrogen density is in the ballpark of 1 gram, and either room can get to very high or low pressures with no issue. This has the additional benefit of being very effective at insulating the rooms thermally, since heat transfer of a gas is dependent on its density. I tested this by separating 10kg of polluted oxygen at 500K from 10kg of oxygen at 100K, with the hydrogen at 1 gram. After a few cycles the temperatures of the rooms hadn't even shifted a single degree Celsius:

[StroamCR]

I did some more testing to figure out where the breaking points of the airlock are. 1 gram hydrogen density seems to be the key value; below that and it has a tendency to be deleted by the gas in the rooms when the tiles at A and B are deconstructed. Therefore I tested the limits of 1.1 gram density hydrogen.

In terms of upper pressure bound... I couldn't find one. 1.1 grams of hydrogen isn't pushed from space #2 even by 150,000kg of gas density in one of the rooms. This must result from the limited mobility of the hydrogen in the 4-space shape of the airlock, since a 6-space shape achieved by removing the tiles above spaces 2 and 4 fails in this situation.

For the lower pressure bound, it seems to lie somewhere in the range of 100-150 mg of room pressure. At and below 100mg, hydrogen spills into the low pressure room, which causes its density to become less than 1 gram, and then it gets deleted by the high pressure room gas.

The 1.1 gram hydrogen density airlock did not fail in my test of 150,000kg polluted oxygen in the left room, and 150 mg oxygen in the right room (a billion-fold difference in density). This demonstrates that the airlock in this setup is impervious to pressure differences short of actively attempting to turn one of the rooms into a vacuum.

In terms of heat transfer, I put 2kg of oxygen at 95C in the left room, and 2kg of oxygen at 25C in the right room. The right room increased in temperature by around 0.5 degree Celsius after the first cycle. For comparison, a simple mechanical airlock made of gold amalgam, the least conductive choice, caused the right room to increase by about 14 degrees in the first cycle. Therefore the near-vacuum hydrogen airlock is in the range of 20-30 times better insulating than a gold amalgam airlock.

[bzgzd]

You could add one more block to be more secure against low pressure. I am using CO2 air lock :

CO2 will never exchange its position with anything vertically and can't be pushed down by high pressure against wall and will not push low pressure up against wall.

But problem is duplicants exhale. If duplicant breathe out in the middle of your hydrogen lock it would be a problem.

I really have no idea how such CO2 block can fail but in my current game it did fail after about 70 cycles. No idea why or how so I can't do any change to prevent it from happening again.

 

[StroamCR]

Ah yes that extra block would do it. Then the hydrogen couldn't displace the room gas from its space just like the hydrogen can't be displaced from its space. Thanks!

I considered a carbon dioxide airlock but realized it could be compromised by dups exhaling and adding carbon dioxide to the lock, so it couldn't be used next to a room with oxygen or polluted oxygen in it, or anywhere carbon dioxide could diffuse into. The hydrogen airlock is protected from extra hydrogen diffusing in by the two tiles on the insides of the room from the ladders (the ones coming down from the ceiling).

I'm pretty sure dups don't exhale carbon dioxide when they're holding their breath. They begin holding their breath as soon as they enter the hydrogen, so they shouldn't exhale within the hydrogen itself. I've sent dups through it many times and haven't seen it happen yet, but I suppose that's not proof that it will never happen. Maybe I'll run a test game with it for a while, with a hamster wheel on the other side to see if it becomes compromised at any time.

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, StroamCR said:

I'm pretty sure dups don't exhale carbon dioxide when they're holding their breath. They begin holding their breath as soon as they enter the hydrogen, so they shouldn't exhale within the hydrogen itself. I've sent dups through it many times and haven't seen it happen yet, but I suppose that's not proof that it will never happen. Maybe I'll run a test game with it for a while, with a hamster wheel on the other side to see if it becomes compromised at any time.

I will try hydrogen version instead of CO2 in my next game... brief testing looks good and I never take flatulence duplicants.

 

[Lifegrow]

Can anyone explain a worthwhile application for this, that couldn't be replicated with a fail-proof liquid lock?

I genuinely don't understand what the uses for this type of lock are, nor do I understand why you would want to build one in a non-debug world. The diagram that @StroamCR provided on how to build it makes perfect sense, and I understand the theory behind it - but surely a naptha lock, or even crude oil lock would be superior in thermal properties?

Stress is neither here nor there once you have some basic decor around your base - so i'm honestly baffled  

Great observations though, I just wonder what it could be used for.

[StroamCR]

The main benefit is just to avoid soggy feet and sopping wet without the use of an exosuit. It can also be created very early in the game - as soon as you get access to gas pumps, and before you have access to oil or naptha. Perhaps in the future stress will be made to be a bigger deal, or the liquid puddle lock may be 'fixed' out of the game.

[StroamCR]

Here is an updated design with thanks to @bzgzd for the idea to add the tiles below 5 and 6.

 

This design has a lower pressure limit in the 1-10 microgram range, and no upper pressure limit. Dups can move quite a bit faster through it too!

[bzgzd]

I did some more tests and I am going to use it now in my normal non debug games. When it works 100% why would I get soaking wet or soggy feet debuff? And similar CO2 lock I used before got compromised in real game after some time but this I think can hold forever.

 

Duplicants seems to always exhale from butts. They can get oxygen from several locations around them but not when standing in the middle of that hydrogen airlock - there they hold breath. In video I posted earlier between 1:00 and 1:30 Bubbles is standing with head in hydrogen and exhale several times always to the bottom tile.

That little 20g CO2 block can push away even 500kg water but it should make no problems to this airlock.

 

 

[GreatGameDota]

12 hours ago, StroamCR said:

It can also be created very early in the game - as soon as you get access to gas pumps, and before you have access to oil or naptha

Early on you can just use water, but I always like new ideas on how to make perfect airlocks 

[Lifegrow]

As regards stress, does anyone have the definitive values for stress change under different circumstances ? I think low oxygen is 10% change per cycle, but not sure if holding breath has a lasting effect...

1 hour ago, bzgzd said:

I did some more tests and I am going to use it now in my normal non debug games. When it works 100% why would I get soaking wet or soggy feet debuff? And similar CO2 lock I used before got compromised in real game after some time but this I think can hold forever.

In the video you linked above, over the course of maybe 1/3rd of a cycle, your dupes gain 7% stress.

I'm assuming this is caused by "holding breath" or "low oxygen" ?

What I'm wondering is what the actual difference stress wise between the two versions is over the course of a cycle.

 

[bzgzd]

19 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

As regards stress, does anyone have the definitive values for stress change under different circumstances ? I think low oxygen is 10% change per cycle, but not sure if holding breath has a lasting effect...

In the video you linked above, over the course of maybe 1/3rd of a cycle, your dupes gain 7% stress.

I'm assuming this is caused by "holding breath" or "low oxygen" ?

What I'm wondering is what the actual difference stress wise between the two versions is over the course of a cycle.

 

I think "Holding breath" gives no stress, maybe because it gives death soon but in that video "chilly surroundings" -> "cold air" was the reason for stress increase. They get it quicker in hydrogen but much quicker in water. I used some lower temperature hydrogen below 20 Celsius there.

Yes there exist also "low oxygen" stress but I believe that happens only in oxygen with low density.

 

[GreatGameDota]

39 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I'm assuming this is caused by "holding breath" or "low oxygen" ?

What I'm wondering is what the actual difference stress wise between the two versions is over the course of a cycle.

 

15 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

Yes there exist also "low oxygen" stress but I believe that happens only in oxygen with low density.

 

I believe the "low oxygen" stress buff can also happen while holding their breath. My dupes had the debuff while in a chlorine filled room.

Wet feet is 10%, soaping wet is 20%, ow oxygen is 10%, and cold/hot air is 10%, I believe. So it's about the same (?).

15 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

They get it quicker in hydrogen but much quicker in water. I used some lower temperature hydrogen below 20 Celsius there.

Hydrogen itself is a gas that makes dupes cold. If you look in the thermal comfort overlay it always show hydrogen as cold like liquids. I believe it stop being cold if it's hot but then your dupes think it's toasty.

[bzgzd]

11 minutes ago, GreatGameDota said:

 

I believe the "low oxygen" stress buff can also happen while holding their breath. My dupes had the debuff while in a chlorine filled room.

Wet feet is 10%, soaping wet is 20%, ow oxygen is 10%, and cold/hot air is 10%, I believe. So it's about the same (?).

Hydrogen itself is a gas that makes dupes cold. If you look in the thermal comfort overlay it always show hydrogen as cold like liquids. I believe it stop being cold if it's hot but then your dupes think it's toasty.

Big difference is that some debuff like "low oxygen" or "cold air" goes away immediately when there is no more low oxygen and some like soggy feet or sopping wet stays active for 0.2 cycles after just stepping into water.
Popped eardrums is worst as it stays 0.5 cycles.

 

[Lifegrow]

Hmmm all very interesting. Again, not trying to downplay the idea, it's great - just trying to figure out when/if i'll ever use it.

 

[StroamCR]

4 hours ago, GreatGameDota said:

Early on you can just use water, but I always like new ideas on how to make perfect airlocks 

That's true of course, but I was mainly referring to the ability to create a thermally-insulating airlock early in the game, perhaps as a portal into a steam geyser room. I would think low-pressure hydrogen would be more insulating than a water puddle lock, but I haven't tested it directly.

On another note, I did have the airlock 'fail' during a real-game simulation I did in my debug game. I had the dup build the airlock from scratch in order to create an entryway into a chlorine geyser. At one point a little oxygen got into the airlock and got stuck in spaces 2-4, just fluctuating back and forth. No oxygen or chlorine leaked to the other side as a result, but the thermal insulation would most likely be compromised. I'm not sure what caused it to happen, but it did occur while the dup was standing in the airlock and collecting some stone on the ground. Perhaps it's best to keep the airlock clear of debris so that dups don't linger inside?

[The Flying Fox]

Decided to try this type of lock myself.  Seems to work rather well.

 

Works great for an in-base chlorine room.  Store food, seeds, slime, and fertilizer in there with no issue, no germs.  Far better then the mechanized doors I was using before.  No destruction of gases, no popped ear-drums debuff because of doors slamming shut and displacing gases.  Also works far better with multiple Dupes running in and out of the room.  And yeah, doesn't appear to have CO2 building up in the Chlorine room either.

[MidnightSteam]

Gave this idea for a spin. I couldn't make it any smaller because my Duplicants enter from the side so it had to be two tiles high. Seems to be working. Probably not much faster than doors since they pause for a split second when climbing or going down.

An upside is that gasses don't get destroyed by doors.

@StroamCR  I'll let you know how it goes after a few days.

[GreatGameDota]

16 hours ago, StroamCR said:

That's true of course, but I was mainly referring to the ability to create a thermally-insulating airlock early in the game

How is hydrogen gas "insulating"? I might have missed the reason in an earlier post. But you can just make water locks 100% insulated by doing one airlock followed by a vacuum and then another airlock. You could even use naptha.

[The Flying Fox]

2 hours ago, GreatGameDota said:

How is hydrogen gas "insulating"? I might have missed the reason in an earlier post. But you can just make water locks 100% insulated by doing one airlock followed by a vacuum and then another airlock. You could even use naptha.

@StroamCR Stated in an earlier post that you could fill the hydrogen pocket with a tiny amount of hydrogen, with just a few grams and it still wouldn't break.  Seeing that heat transportation in ONI is dependent on mass, it would take forever for several grams of hydrogen to move a significant amount of heat from one room to the other.  Also, since ONI favors cold moving down and heat moving up, the fact that the lock stair-steps both up and down further slows the movement of heat.

[GreatGameDota]

18 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

@StroamCR Stated in an earlier post that you could fill the hydrogen pocket with a tiny amount of hydrogen, with just a few grams and it still wouldn't break.  Seeing that heat transportation in ONI is dependent on mass, it would take forever for several grams of hydrogen to move a significant amount of heat from one room to the other.  Also, since ONI favors cold moving down and heat moving up, the fact that the lock stair-steps both up and down further slows the movement of heat.

Thanks for the clarity  but it isn't a perfect or permanent insulator kinda like a liquid lock as well.

[MidnightSteam]

@StroamCR

I can't play the game much anymore but through the cycles I've had the chance to play it's still holding up well.