[TU-211867] Polluted water maker...and maybe food as well?

[MoMuffins]

Okay, after reading reports of polluted water turning water into more polluted water, I was very skeptical but curious.  I've built many reservoirs where I stored both liquids together without ill effects.  Indeed, I exploit the fact that polluted water is heavier than water to safely store it under a fully oxygenated base under a film of water as a gas barrier.  The polluted water stored this way can be siphoned off through u-bends safely without the need for liquid filters.

Anyways, I've setup many different experiments to try and get polluted water to transform water.  This setup does not work

The two liquids will stay like that forever.  They don't mix and nothing happened.  The same happens if you started with a horizontal partition.

This setup exposes water to two instances of polluted water.  Nothing happened as well.

So maybe three sides with polluted water will cause something special to occur?  Well as it happened, something naturally can produce such a thing.  Here a geyser is submerged under lots of polluted water.  It over-pressurized then burped up some 180kg of water.  This water is surrounded on three sides with polluted water and very shortly after it turned into polluted water!

So polluted water can turn water into more polluted water if and only if the water is surrounded on three sides by polluted water.  This neatly explained what was happening in these two threads, @Smartbird @heckubis

Now the reverse is not true .  Sadly, you can not surround polluted water with water to "clean" it.  However, this finding brings a rather interesting use.  But the use of this fact needs a little detour about geysers. I observed geysers over a period of time and did some experiments of them.  Essentially, geysers are special vents.  Geysers appear to work simultaneously all over the map.  They do not care if they are over-pressurized.  They do not care if you build tiles on them (they will punch a hole in your tiles to vent).  Geysers operate in a sequence of "pressure-rising"->"venting"->"pressure-rising."  During venting, if there is nothing blocking the steam or water, then it will produce steam at 666.2/3 g/s at 120 C, follow by water at 60 kg/s at 95 C, follow by steam at 500 g/s at 120 C.  If you measure the water they make per cycle, here I surrounded it with ice, then it is roughly 1500 kg/cycle and they vent 4 times per cycle.  This is quite a lot of water!

So what to do with all of that water?  Well that is enough water to support the oxygen needs of 29 "Diver's Lungs" dupes or 22 normal dupes.  Or that is a lot of polluted water...which if used the right way can turn into food!  So the idea is to pollute all of that fresh water and then erm...tepidize it into dirt.  The ratio of polluted water -> steam + dirt is 1:1:0.01.  1000g of polluted water turns into 1000g of steam + 10g of dirt.  Now, if you can steam all of that polluted water (1500 kg/cycle), you will end up with 15kg of dirt/cycle.  Alternatively, you can turn the polluted water into fertilizer and bake the fertilizer into dirt.  This is 1200 kg of dirt/cycle at the 5:4 ratio of the fertilizer maker.  This is a lot of dirt and enough to make 16 mush bars per cycle.

Now there are two ways to make polluted water (aside from the dupes of course).  The natural way is to flood the geyser with polluted water.  You want to cover it entirely with this liquid.  As the geyser vent, it will "over pressure" then burp out 300 kg of water that will turn into polluted water.  You design your tank such that it will over flow into a trough.  Here you can pump it to the fertilizer maker and then bake the fertilizer to get it to turn into dirt after 125 C.

The second way is to make this contraption.

Magic happens at the U catchment.  The water input should be no more than 1.6kg/s.  It is safer at 1kg/s.  The flow rate for polluted water should be something small but 1kg/s is fine.  The overflow area is where you pump the polluted water to the fertilizer maker.

I hope you found this useful...The implication is nauseating though.  Dupes eating their excrement.   I know poop burger is a thing but I never knew you can make it in this game.

 

 

[PickPay]

Impressive, well done thanks for sharing !

So you got clean water dripping on 1 side and dirty on the other ?

The other reason I found to turn Geyser water into polluted water is to cool it (!) as it passes through a Purifier currently the temperature changes from anything to 40°C

[MoMuffins]

Water is being dripped directly into the U catchment from above.  Directly near the top of the screenshot you should see a liquid vent. It got cutoff in the screenshot.  The two vents on either side of the U catchment are dripping polluted water.

Why do you want to cool water anyway?  Hot water has no effect on the temperature of the buildings nor do dupes complain about showering with 95C water.   I don't thing the electrolyzer emit gasses at the temperature of the water.

If you are worried that hot water might change the temperature of the oxygen in your base, then just build the reservoir in a vacuum room with access restricted.

[Risu]

After thoroughly testing this, can safely say they are hardcoding this interaction in the simulator, even though they are sending an element list full of values to the simulator.

I hijacked the element loader and tweaked settings for all elements involved and nothing prevented the interaction from happening.

I even removed the ability for the game engine to alter the cells in the simulator. Still happened.

Prevented the game engine from sending the element interactions it wants (which doesn't even work). Still happened.

So tl;dr something hacky is going on.
 

[MoMuffins]

For the love of poo, this is probably the best thing that can happen to water.  This is like water blocks in Minecraft making more of themselves.  So quit testing @Risu and leave it be .  I like my water turning into poo water and the fact that dupes will happily eat it.

[Risu]

This is what it looks like when you turn polluted water into an exact copy of dirt.

 

[heckubis]

ahh so its converting it after still the effect is the same. Thanks for testing it out and explaining it well I was never that good at that sort of thing.

[Mijae]

Based on tests I did a while back, steaming polluted water at best creates 990g of water + 10g dirt.

At the time it was actually much worse for "normal" conditions (not 1-tile wide).  I haven't re-tested since TU, but I doubt fixing mass loss would instead create more mass.  Have you tested the mass conversion of clean to polluted water?  If it's as simple as surrounding on 3 sides it should be easy enough to test, but I'm not home to verify right now.  If it is 1:1, that's at least an interesting way to turn water into dirt (I just doubt there is extra mass being created).

[Risu]

7 minutes ago, Mijae said:

Based on tests I did a while back, steaming polluted water at best creates 990g of water + 10g dirt.

At the time it was actually much worse for "normal" conditions (not 1-tile wide).  I haven't re-tested since TU, but I doubt fixing mass loss would instead create more mass.  Have you tested the mass conversion of clean to polluted water?  If it's as simple as surrounding on 3 sides it should be easy enough to test, but I'm not home to verify right now.  If it is 1:1, that's at least an interesting way to turn water into dirt (I just doubt there is extra mass being created).

As my screenshots above show, it's a direct element hash conversion. Mass and temperature unaltered.
 

[Mijae]

1 hour ago, Risu said:

As my screenshots above show, it's a direct element hash conversion. Mass and temperature unaltered.
 

My reply was directed at original post stating "1000g of polluted water turns into 1000g of steam + 10g of dirt", which I don't think is true.

[Risu]

10 minutes ago, Mijae said:

My reply was directed at original post stating "1000g of polluted water turns into 1000g of steam + 10g of dirt", which I don't think is true.

 

[MoMuffins]

6 hours ago, Mijae said:

My reply was directed at original post stating "1000g of polluted water turns into 1000g of steam + 10g of dirt", which I don't think is true.

So it's (n-(n/100)):n/100.  There happy?

Or it could be 99:1...You wouldn't really know because the game only displays one decimal place.

In the long run, 100:1 or 99:1 or (n-(n/100)):(n/100) is insignificant.

[Mijae]

Just clarifying it's not making new mass.  Good research finding what was causing this.

I did some more testing and it looks like mass is conserved in the steam process now. So 1kg of polluted water does always make 10g of dirt now, even if spread out. I was more concerned if this was fixed or not. Otherwise it could have been a significant difference.  Also verified clean water is polluted at 1:1.

Another interesting thing I noticed with the clean water conversion to polluted is that they need to be at exactly the same temperature.  I'm sure the heat transfer is pretty quick though, especially for the dripping water case.  It'd be interesting to see if small drops could eventually change the temp of a large body of water or not. That is, is temperature conserved (naturally)?

 

[MoMuffins]

I didn't know it was temperature dependent...wasn't really watching the temperature of the two liquids.  I only know they take some time before water is converted into polluted water in the catchment.  The suggested flow rate of 1kg/s was because the transformation happened approximately every 250s.

I do not think small drops will significantly affect the temperature of a large body of water.  Heat is quite conserved.

[Smartbird]

but in my case, the water was not surrounded by dirty water. and it was triggered when some dirty dirty falled down from above..

 

[MoMuffins]

2 hours ago, Smartbird said:

but in my case, the water was not surrounded by dirty water. and it was triggered when some dirty dirty falled down from above..

There must be some area where your water is surrounded by polluted water on three sides.  I've not able to see any transformation with one or two sides.  Perhaps those two conditions will also transform but may take longer.  Whatever the case, it definitely occured with three sides.  You are just unlucky in your case I guess...or you could say that you are lucky.  After all, that is a lot of food to be had.  Happy mush bars.

[PVD]

On 03.04.2017 at 11:27 AM, Fatmice said:

Magic happens at the U catchment.  The water input should be no more than 1.6kg/s.  It is safer at 1kg/s.  The flow rate for polluted water should be something small but 1kg/s is fine.  The overflow area is where you pump the polluted water to the fertilizer maker.

Very interesting setup, but it seems very hard to maintain, at least for me... Look at this one:

Corpses pollute water, in radius one tile, polluted water goes down, clean goes up. Profit.  Beware of a high pressure, as polluted water is 1:1, but it tries to keep 800 kg/tile pressure, so even 1 granite is not enough to keep it. P.s. Finally dupes have a usage.

Also what I have thought about, is what about heat capacity of clean and contaminated water? So, let's say I have 1000kg clean water, so it will take 4180J to change it's degree. And then I will pollute it and have 1000kg polluted water with 6000J to change it's degree, that means that I got from nowhere 1820J per degree? So, looks like in order to cool something really hot, its better to cool down clean water, then contaminate it and use result as coolant. When coolant becomes hot, move it to the void.

[MoMuffins]

2 hours ago, PVD said:

Corpses pollute water, in radius one tile, polluted water goes down, clean goes up. Profit.  Beware of a high pressure, as polluted water is 1:1, but it tries to keep 800 kg/tile pressure, so even 1 granite is not enough to keep it. P.s. Finally dupes have a usage.

Yep, my setup was to avoid using corpses, but corpses do pollute water.  I didn't want to kill any dupes in my base to prove a point.

2 hours ago, PVD said:

Also what I have thought about, is what about heat capacity of clean and contaminated water? So, let's say I have 1000kg clean water, so it will take 4180J to change it's degree. And then I will pollute it and have 1000kg polluted water with 6000J to change it's degree, that means that I got from nowhere 1820J per degree? So, looks like in order to cool something really hot, its better to cool down clean water, then contaminate it and use result as coolant. When coolant becomes hot, move it to the void.

The transformed water takes on the temperature of the surrounding polluted water.  While water was sitting in the U catchment in my setup, it was constantly exchanging heat with the polluted water.  At best, the polluted water will slowly increase in temperature to equal that of the hot water from the geysers.  However, polluted water has higher heat capacity so the transformation means you can store even more heat into the same mass.

If it is too hot, just make fertilizer out of it.  This destroys mass and change the temperature to 40C, which you can use to grow plants and this step further destroys heat.  No need to have a void on the map, which doesn't always spawn.

[PVD]

On 03.04.2017 at 11:27 AM, Fatmice said:

So polluted water can turn water into more polluted water if and only if the water is surrounded on three sides by polluted water.  This neatly explained what was happening in these two threads, @Smartbird @heckubis

 

Oh, this U catchment make me scared, so thanks random I found another way:

So that's why players have their water contaminated, if bottom and right side is contaminated (and diagonal tile also) your colony will suffer sad fun with cascade pollution effect:

P.s. this remembers me how to create big water pool in minecraft...

So, about unlimited polluted water, here is fast made solution:

Clean water will pull out dirty and then randomly turn into polluted, then under high pressure it will go to the reservoir where thermo switch is used to control pressure. The only problem is that your source of clean water and thermo switch can be located far away, so build it nearby, or use geyser...

Better solution will also turn steam into water, and sure, no void provided in the real game, use mop or use thimble reed (if it will not boil?)

[Risu]

1 minute ago, PVD said:

Oh, this U catchment make me scared, so thanks random I found another way. You don't need to surround it with 3 tiles, only 2  You need to be sure that right and down tiles are polluted:

It's still touching 3 polluted tiles. Diagonals count.
 

[PVD]

3 minutes ago, Risu said:

It's still touching 3 polluted tiles. Diagonals count.
 

Hah, yes  But diagonal tile seams easier to achieve.

[MoMuffins]

7 hours ago, PVD said:

Clean water will pull out dirty and then randomly turn into polluted, then under high pressure it will go to the reservoir where thermo switch is used to control pressure. The only problem is that your source of clean water and thermo switch can be located far away, so build it nearby, or use geyser...

How's that going to work?  I thought the liquid vent for clean water don't work when submerged.

[alcurad90]

For the polluted water, I've tested something about making O2 from it

 

The polluted water will let out polluted O2, and polluted O2 could be cooled down to liquid O2 and then change to clean O2

 

Which every step is 1:1 on mass, so this maybe the way that cost least to make O2...

[MoMuffins]

The most energy efficient method of making O2 is through the electrolyzer if you are not using the temperature glitch for pipes.  PO->LOX->O is slower and less throughput.

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Fatmice said:

PO->LOX->O is slower and less throughput.

PO->LOX->O can be made as fast as you want it but if you're not using the glitch it's insanely power hungry. Assuming use of hamster wheels, a dupe has hard time to make enough energy to generate oxygen he consumes.

Even with the glitch, PO->LOX->O requires a large and complex machine while electrolyzer is just a simple device.