Was Maxwell Always a Jerk?

[ImDaMisterL]

9 hours ago, YoshiEmblem said:

Maxwell is basically Mr. Gold. 

Lol, yes!

I seriously need to start watching that series again...

But yeah, back on topic, I think Them and the nightmare fuel played a big role im changing Max' personality. William doesn't strike me as the egotistical or jerk-y person that Maxwell (sometimes, but not always) is.

[thisbird]

I've always thought thought that William was kind, gentle, awkward, and not particularly charming. He wanted to be a magician, but he just didn't have the stage presence to pull it off, so even though he'd practiced pulling that rabbit out of that hat 27 times or so, on stage he'd fumble it, or the rabbit would end up under the table eating a carrot when it was supposed to be miraculously appearing, or he'd put the hat back on his head after trying and the rabbit would show up THEN. Sweet guy; not so much meant for showbiz.

So you've got this guy, who's trying and failing to live his dream. I always pictured him coming from a not-especially-affluent background. He probably had to save up for passage to the US to do this thing he always wanted to do, and once he got there he didn't have his own money to live on but had to start borrowing right away to get himself and his show set up. This would explain why, when he's in debt with the knee-breaking type, he can't rely on his family for help with money, even though at least his brother is also in the states and they're clearly on good terms. I saw a really good post once, where someone broke down the amount he owed accounting for inflation and modern prices; it came out to only a couple hundred dollars in modern equivalency. So we're not talking millions of dollars, here. This is a reasonable amount of money, and William can't scrape it together to literally save his own life.

So here's William, who's a decent guy at heart but is also kind of fixated on what's gone wrong with his life. Then he starts dabbling with Them.

This "sweet boy," as Wickerbottom says, wants two things to make his life go the way he needs it to: charisma, and money. The Umbra Codex drops the promise for whatever he wants right in his lap, and he jumps at the chance, and they give it to him.

Money? Plainly he's burning through the stuff, based on his lines in-game. He gets someone to seed pomegranates for him. He has nice suits, and he takes care of them. He has the pocket money to take out an ad every day of the week in a major newspaper to search for an assistant, and then the money to pay her salary.

Charisma? Just look at him. He ditched the glasses; his whole physical bearing changed, posture and all. He pays attention to fashion, and he's fixated on his own appearance. He has real magic to show off now, sure - but he also has the finesse to pull off a stage show in the first place.

So he gets his payoff, but I think They take whatever you are, every part of you, and corrupt it. So William gets buried under Their influence, and more and more he's replaced with Maxwell the Great, who's vain, selfish, inconsiderate, and greedy. And I don't think William ever gets lost entirely; I think Charlie especially works as a counter influence to help keep what he used to be around, to some degree. (Take a look at how his whole posture changes in The Final Act when she kneels next to him on the stage. Everything up until then's been keeping up appearances, but he lets them drop for just a second.)

But... yes. I don't think Maxwell was always a jerk.

Tl:dr: William was a doof with a dream. They gave him his dream and ruined him in the process.

[imsomony]

Here's an excellent lore compilation by @Spazmatic, a write-up of all the puzzles in story form from back when DS was first created:

Really helps give a good overview of how William Carter became the Maxwell we know today. He wasn't always a jerk. He was just a man trying to make a name for himself in the new world, who stumbled upon dark arts that took over his soul.

[Zhuzha]

@thisbird Wow, dude, you took the words right out of my mouth. This is basically my headcanon characterization for William.

Except for this bit:

3 hours ago, thisbird said:

I always pictured him coming from a not-especially-affluent background. He probably had to save up for passage to the US to do this thing he always wanted to do, and once he got there he didn't have his own money to live on but had to start borrowing right away to get himself and his show set up. This would explain why, when he's in debt with the knee-breaking type, he can't rely on his family for help with money, even though at least his brother is also in the states and they're clearly on good terms. I saw a really good post once, where someone broke down the amount he owed accounting for inflation and modern prices; it came out to only a couple hundred dollars in modern equivalency. So we're not talking millions of dollars, here. This is a reasonable amount of money, and William can't scrape it together to literally save his own life.

I imagine him coming from a middle-class family (maybe, upper middle-class); he always wanted to be a magician, but his brother was the only one, who encouraged him, the rest of the family wanted him to choose a more "serious" occupation. So they refused to support William financially, and he had to scrape some money on moving to the US and his show himself - thus he quickly got into debt. Maybe he didn't want to ask for help from his brother because of pride before reason: his relatives told him that his dream was stupid and he'll never make it on his own, and asking for help would be proving them right.

[Arlesienne]

@ThisBird - where is your worshipping altar so that I can make an offering to this marvellous post?

[thisbird]

19 hours ago, Zhuzha said:

@thisbird Wow, dude, you took the words right out of my mouth. This is basically my headcanon characterization for William.

Except for this bit:

I imagine him coming from a middle-class family (maybe, upper middle-class); he always wanted to be a magician, but his brother was the only one, who encouraged him, the rest of the family wanted him to choose a more "serious" occupation. So they refused to support William financially, and he had to scrape some money on moving to the US and his show himself - thus he quickly got into debt. Maybe he didn't want to ask for help from his brother because of pride before reason: his relatives told him that his dream was stupid and he'll never make it on his own, and asking for help would be proving them right.

I never thought of it that way, but I could see that, too. 

He does have an excess of pride. Maybe that wasn't entirely of Their doing, after all.

5 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

@ThisBird - where is your worshipping altar so that I can make an offering to this marvellous post?

Aw, jeez, it was just me rambling about headcanons. ^^  I tend to go a bit long-winded, eheh.

[Arlesienne]

13 minutes ago, thisbird said:

Aw, jeez, it was just me rambling about headcanons. ^^  I tend to go a bit long-winded, eheh.

Then please don't stop. It was a most rewarding experience. I am all ears for more.

[Reagle]

On 5/11/2016 at 9:16 PM, MikoWebster said:

he could have been rich and terrible with money, or he could have been poor and been given a lot of favours prior to becoming Maxwell. It's an interesting look into his backstory for sure!

 

I'm leaning towards William starting from a wealthy family. When he came to America, he was obviously very learned, and this is coming from late-industrial-era-Great-Britain. He came over looking very meek, and honestly, it didn't seem like he worked a day in his life. So he's a rich man's son going to America to pursue a passion, but it seems that he doesn't have a ton of money with him when he begins. I chalk this up to a father (early 1900s, mind you) disapproving with William's obvious passion for stage magic. This would also explain that only Jack seemed to care when William started to isolate himself from society- his family, well, sort of forgot about little old William.  So my best guess is: Left his family to become a Magician in America, soon became broke, and the Codex Umbra was his way out.

Please say if you agree/disagree! Thanks!

20 hours ago, Zhuzha said:

@thisbird Wow, dude, you took the words right out of my mouth. This is basically my headcanon characterization for William.

Except for this bit:

I imagine him coming from a middle-class family (maybe, upper middle-class); he always wanted to be a magician, but his brother was the only one, who encouraged him, the rest of the family wanted him to choose a more "serious" occupation. So they refused to support William financially, and he had to scrape some money on moving to the US and his show himself - thus he quickly got into debt. Maybe he didn't want to ask for help from his brother because of pride before reason: his relatives told him that his dream was stupid and he'll never make it on his own, and asking for help would be proving them right.

 

I didn't read the second page completely!  Sorry there mate, I basically repeated what you said

[thisbird]

On 5/12/2016 at 8:45 AM, Arlesienne said:

Then please don't stop. It was a most rewarding experience. I am all ears for more.

Haha, I will definitely not be shy about jumping into any and all future lore threads. Nothing can stop the rambling. ^^