hotflungwok Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 So I've been playing this for a long time now, and I'm noticing a troubling trend. In ancient times, when you wanted something dead, there were a variety of ways to go about it. You could lead them to something that would kill them for you, make traps to kill them, or even just kill them yourself. The Deerclops could be a tough fight, he could kill a whole herd of piggies or beefalo before he went down, but you still got a choice as to how you wanted to do it. Then, in Reign of Giants, we saw something new, monsters you didn't want help with, cuz they could kill everything around them in one hit. You couldn't lead the Bearger or the Dragonfly to a pig village, the first would flatten it in one attack, the second would flatten it then burn it down. Huge loss of (almost) nonrenewable resources, just not workable. Both of these 'flatten everything' attacks could also quite easily flatten the player in one hit as well. Trying to take them on one on one was asking for another new thing: an instakill through armor. Fighting them wasn't impossible, but it was much much riskier than before. However, they both came with a new weakness: food. Both of them had something they wanted, and when they got enough of it they went to sleep, allowing you to blow them up, or just mostly blow them up and finish them yourselves. So you lost one method, had another become a lot harder, and gained a new way to kill 2 specific things. And now we've got a new boss, and a new venue for combat. The boss has an attack that can kill instantly, grab you from off screen, and can demolish everything around it. It shows up during a season where movement and light are already a problem, and can show up very early in the game. Something capable of helping you kill stuff is much less common, and there's a good chance there's nothing on any particular island. Since everything is so spread out getting to something that can help is probably not even an option. No more pig villages, no more tentacles, no more hound mounds. There's monkeys, but they have their own problems and are difficult to work with. There's stlll spiders. I'm not going to mention snakes. So what we have here is a boss that is very difficult to get others to kill for you, has no food weakness, and doesn't seem to activate traps (assuming youve been able to make any with hounds now dropping teeth about as often as the Krampus drops a sack). You're basically stuck fighting it. Combat on the water just pushes us further down this road. Even kiting has been taken away. Everything else in the water is so much faster and more maneuverable than you, you're stuck just standing there trading blows until one of you runs out of hit points. It really seems to me that the emphasis in the game has gone from being clever and problem solving to mindless bashing and instant death. I see less and less options, and more ways to lose your whole game to the slightest mistake, just bad luck. I'm all for danger, there has to be risk, but getting killed by something from offscreen you don't even have a chance to see yet is just silly. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
InSanity71 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I somewhat agree with this, especially with the sealnado and the combat on water, because it seems as if sometimes there are no other options to deal with them. In the base game you have lots of options to deal with (almost) everything and even in ROG there are still quite a few options, they are just more difficult and require new methods. Yet I feel the emphasis on the idea that you can have someone/something else deal with it for has been taken away, to an extent. I believe there are still ways you can get help, for example the sharks can be led to bottlenosed ballphins, or water beefalo, or you can just go to land and either kill them 1 by 1 or leave them to aggro something else. I think this means that now the emphasis is massively reliant on knowing your surroundings and exactly where everything is (exploring), whereas in the base game and ROG you could settle down anywhere and just figure it out. So I feel the reason for at least some of the complaints are solely because the methods and tactics to go through the game have been drastically changed. And this is also the reason that I have been struggling with this is because I need to completely rethink how I go about quite a few things to survive. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzKratoszz Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 There are a couple things here I'd like to comment on. First, this is early access still. And I see that some of your complaints are based around bugs. Which of course are unintended and not something you balance a game around. Talking about giants now. Sure they can be dangerous, especially if its your first time seeing them. There is a good chance it will even end your run. But the current sealnado is just as easy as the current quacken when you learn its move set. Now combat at sea. If you want to kite something such as sharks, but you find it just too hard to move back fast enough, there is an easy solution. Just use a poison spear. Poison slows down their attack animations and gives you much more time to kite them. Very useful for 1-3 sharks. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemporaryMan Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Which one of the giants can instakill through armor? I've been hit by all of them while wearing armor, none of them is an instakill. Dragonfly can be an instakill without armor, if it does that triple stomp instead of the usual swipe, but that's the only one I'm aware of. Some times I get arrogant and fight deerclops without armor... end up eating pierogies for dinner until the snow melts. As for sealnado, it isn't an instant kill either, though it'd be a mercy if it was. That thing never gives up pursuit and steals so much of your inventory you can't even make replacement weapons and armor to fight back with. Besides the two giants already mentioned, deerclops will relax after smashing enough structures and Goose/Moose won't chase far from the nest. I'm not aware of any way to appease sealnado. As for its special attack, I wasn't aware it destroys all structures; I've only tested walls. What about hopping on a boat to escape that attack, then back on shore afterward to counterattack? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzKratoszz Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 1 minute ago, TemporaryMan said: Which one of the giants can instakill through armor? I've been hit by all of them while wearing armor, none of them is an instakill. Dragonfly can be an instakill without armor, if it does that triple stomp instead of the usual swipe, but that's the only one I'm aware of. Some times I get arrogant and fight deerclops without armor... end up eating pierogies for dinner until the snow melts. As for sealnado, it isn't an instant kill either, though it'd be a mercy if it was. That thing never gives up pursuit and steals so much of your inventory you can't even make replacement weapons and armor to fight back with. Besides the two giants already mentioned, deerclops will relax after smashing enough structures and Moose/Goose won't chase far from the nest. I'm not aware of any way to appease sealnado. As for its special attack, I wasn't aware it destroys all structures; I've only tested walls. What about hopping on a boat to escape that attack, then back on shore afterward to counterattack? A good way to keep extra essentials, such as weapons and light is to keep them in your boat. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousKoala Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 3 hours ago, zzKratoszz said: A good way to keep extra essentials, such as weapons and light is to keep them in your boat. Doesn't he destroy boats in his way? 3 hours ago, zzKratoszz said: There are a couple things here I'd like to comment on. First, this is early access still. And I see that some of your complaints are based around bugs. Which of course are unintended and not something you balance a game around. Talking about giants now. Sure they can be dangerous, especially if its your first time seeing them. There is a good chance it will even end your run. But the current sealnado is just as easy as the current quacken when you learn its move set. Now combat at sea. If you want to kite something such as sharks, but you find it just too hard to move back fast enough, there is an easy solution. Just use a poison spear. Poison slows down their attack animations and gives you much more time to kite them. Very useful for 1-3 sharks. Poison slows them down? Really?...that actually makes poison much more helpful since you're slow as a snail who's lacking motivation when you're on sea. It might still be early access, but that means its the best time to comment on these things. Also, Release The Quacken is the final big content update I believe, which makes this an even better time to comment on these things. I also like RoG and Vanilla's way to approach combat. Sure you could tank things, but you could kite(with that being the best option), take adventage of the fact mobs don't hate just you, but other mobs too. On sea there's cheaping out and running to land, ranged combat(which ends up as tanking because of you being incredibly slow, and the momentum mechanic making you exposed to attacks after landing just 1 hit), melee combat(mainly tanking), leading the enemy to the few mobs you have(who will eventually die out to as they don't respawn i believe), and very vaguely kiting, which fails the moment the enemy starts moving. All of these ways, and all the ones who are intended(because if cheaping out is intended...it's not a good decision) are flawed, and not challanging, as much as they just rely on tanking things. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5dV Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Combat at sea is ridiculous. Boats don't have the speed required to kite anything, and ranged weaponry is low in damage. I would need to fire a speargun 30 something times to kill a tiger shark in the water, or I can just use an axe and kill it on land. You can't tank on the water either, since boats rack up damage quite quickly, and you don't have to speed to use boat repair kits between attacks. It is nigh impossible to fight a pack of 6 sea hounds, since you hit one, then you get stunlocked and die. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysulyan Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I agree with the fact that water combat is a bit sloppy, if not completely impossible to achieve. Lately I realized there's no way I can melee enemies while riding a boat. Most of the times I will end up with low boatHP and go back home-island with water up to my knees. That's why I lead sea hounds to stinkrays now, instead of trying to kill them. Or even ballphins and boaty knights. Sea dogs are great diversions. Same goes for bosses. Maybe right now you need less bashing and more running? But now that I think about it, whenever there's danger in Don't Starve, most of the times you will end up running away from it, Shipwrecked or not. Because it's a roguelike game and it demands quick and spontaneous decisions that will most likely seal your fate every time, even cheaping out and going from sea to land, who cares? It's your gameplay and it's smart because you are using what little you have to your advantage. Luck has always been a important factor in this game, like running away from a hound pack and casually finding a field of killer bees that start chasing and distracting them or having a wildfire spread to your base out of bloody nowhere. Generally, with monsters, I do what I always used to do: let the enemies kill themselves. I have gathered enough hound teeth to make the good old trap corridor to avoid hound attacks and teeth keep piling up thanks to this. The Sealnado is a particularly easy fight when you figure out the tactics. If you stay close enough, it shouldn't trigger the big-hella-whirly-windy-thing that sucks you in and insta-kills you without armour. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
YumoS Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 you can lure the sealnado to water beefalos and they will destroy him really quickly. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voyager156 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 11 hours ago, hotflungwok said: And now we've got a new boss, and a new venue for combat. The boss has an attack that can kill instantly, grab you from off screen, and can demolish everything around it. If you wear a log suit + football helmet he can't. But I must admit that he is hard and I really have trouble in my games mainly by him. Did he can destroy a base? (he was very close my base once and nothing happened...) 11 hours ago, hotflungwok said: It really seems to me that the emphasis in the game has gone from being clever and problem solving to mindless bashing and instant death. I don't think that is really that bad - I enjoy SW very very much! But it would be a nice addition to have another ways to kill a boss. 8 hours ago, zzKratoszz said: If you want to kite something such as sharks, but you find it just too hard to move back fast enough, there is an easy solution. Just use a poison spear. Poison slows down their attack animations and gives you much more time to kite them. Very useful for 1-3 sharks. This I didn't know - I must test it 3 hours ago, Ysulyan said: Because it's a roguelike game and it demands quick and spontaneous decisions that will most likely seal your fate every time, even cheaping out and going from sea to land, who cares? It's your gameplay and it's smart because you are using what little you have to your advantage. ^ Exactly. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeputyDeath Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I think the sealnado was meant to be this ridiculously powerful because his drop can be used, with sewing kits, infinitely and is very useful. Obviously by this I mean the turbine blade because the magic seal is nigh on useless. I think they made a mistake with RoG in this respect, because the only decent boss loot items - excluding the guardian - were from the deerclops and the bearger, arguably the easiest and third easiest to kill. The dragonfly's drops were only useful for killing the dragonfly again, and the Moose/Goose's drops are made redundant by an ice fling-o-matic, a fridge and a thermal stone. So I'm okay with bosses being more powerful than before, as long as the loot that you get from them is similarly powerful so that killing them is actually rewarding. Plus, the giants ARE meant to be boss creatures, so making them as easy as they were in RoG to kill (excluding the dragonfly) just makes absolutely no sense. In my opinion, all bosses should be at least 75% as powerful as the dragonfly, possibly without the destruction. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voyager156 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 36 minutes ago, DeputyDeath said: So I'm okay with bosses being more powerful than before, as long as the loot that you get from them is similarly powerful so that killing them is actually rewarding. Plus, the giants ARE meant to be boss creatures, so making them as easy as they were in RoG to kill (excluding the dragonfly) just makes absolutely no sense. I don't say that it is bad that Sealnado is a strong boss. I prefer him than eg. Tigershark - who is not even a challenge. That of course doesn't mean that I like Sealnado cos i hate that fu@#er Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilioEstevez Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I get where you're coming from but I really like how hard it is to kill some bosses in SW. Killing them just makes it so much more satisfying and worthwhile. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusilie Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I am a real Newbie at Don`t starve, but I do think this game is just awesome and I love Shipwrecked. So far I made it 3 times into Hurricane Season with a good chance of going on from there, but then: SEALNADO! First time: Night of the 30th day, rain, storm and lightning – was killed instantly, didn’t even know about this sucker J Second time: Night of the 30th day, rain, storm and lightning – again, Sealnado came out of nowhere, already in its twister-form. I tried to run, but fat chance. Got roasted and toasted by lightning and sucked in by our little whirly friend… Third time: AGAIN Night of the 30th day, rain, storm and lightning!!! And AGAIN Sealnado is coming!!! I paused the game to ask you for advice. What chance do I have in darkness? I have to hold a torch for light and can’t hold a weapon. And I just have a few seconds to decide on a strategy. No water beefalos nearby to lead Sealnado there. Is hiding behind a rock really an option? Does it ever give up and despawns when you do it? I just got a seashell armor and a spear – Newbie, like I said. And I found 4 Obsidian Coconades, but never used one before and am afraid to blow myself up in my panic And there is the darkness problem…. Really tragic that. And why always at night in bad weather? Seems buggy to me… I’d really appreciate your advice J Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaumicParrot Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 #makenavalcombatrangedonly Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
soggynachos Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Shipwrecked has always bugged me in terms of combat, idk, it's always felt very awkward and unbalanced. 1 hour ago, ThaumicParrot said: #makenavalcombatrangedonly #navalonlyweaponsplz Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldruthlace Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 10 hours ago, Ysulyan said: If you stay close enough, it shouldn't trigger the big-hella-whirly-windy-thing that sucks you in and insta-kills you without armour. Are you telling me the if I just get real up in it's space and let him smack me around with melees, he won't do the aoe at all? I thought it was just supposed to be every 3 or 4 attacks at random. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysulyan Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 37 minutes ago, ruthlace said: Are you telling me the if I just get real up in it's space and let him smack me around with melees, he won't do the aoe at all? I thought it was just supposed to be every 3 or 4 attacks at random. Well I think two or three days ago I battled the Sealnado and I just did the good ol' JUMP'N'SHOOT kiting technique. Hit two times, run back to dodge attack, then go back again and hit, and then go back, then wait for it to charge and swing, and then go back and attack. It did not trigger the big-hella-whirly-windy-thing at all. Maybe it was just coincidence, but I have already tried this twice. Maybe my Sealnados glitched or something? I wouldn't know. They did that if I ran too far away though, that's for sure. In my first attempt, for some reason Sealnado stopped attacking me when it was at low hp, too. I don't know what was up with it but I just snatched the chance and defeated it asap. Weird things happen in Early Access. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/65029-where-bosses-and-combat-in-general-seems-to-be-going/#findComment-729287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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