The Naval combat issue thread

[ThaumicParrot]

So here's a thread to discuss problems with naval combat and propose possible solutions! Here's a rework I had in mind:

Make all naval combat ranged instead of melee. This would mean that you can't smash ctrl+f with spears, swords, etc. However, the spear, poison spear, and cutlass supreme are able to be loaded into the speargun. I would suggest making more melee weapons compatible with the speargun, such as the pegleg, cactus spike, etc.

This change would also apply to mobs. They wouldn't be able to melee attack you, but would have to use ranged/lunging attacks. For instance, I came up with a few attack reworks for mobs:

Sea hounds- They could jump at your boat (which would be dodgable) like they do in the release trailer.

Tiger Shark- Could still do his belly dive, but also hurl hairballs at you.

Whales- A water-pound attack, similar to the tiger-shark, and also have an orca-cry stun attack, which would make you weary of keeping your distance which would make whale hunting much more interesting

Swordfish- could do a lunge like the sea hounds, but faster and stronger.

These are just a few of my ideas, but please post your possible solutions!

[stl1234]

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I don't see a problem with the sea combat. I feel like people are expecting it to work like the land version, and they get disappointed. I actually like that when you are in above your head, you can't win.

Here is my mental comparison of how sea vs land combat works:

• Player and mobs are at equal footing on land
• Everything can be kited without a significant risk of damage on land, including most giants
• Items, tech level, amount of exploration, etc... nothing matters. You can kill almost everything 1 on 1 during day time with the axe crafted on day 1.
• Small group of mobs can also be kited, but requires more skill.
• With proper armor, players can tank all mobs, including small groups of them.
• Only large groups of enemies cannot be handled with skill or items.
• Typical approach is: must kill everything.

This is how sea combat is now:

• Land based player is at a disadvantage against sea based mobs.
• Most things can be kited, but only with the proper equipment.
• Items, tech level, amount of exploration are deciding factors in combat.
• Small groups of enemies become very challenging, so think before you engage.
• Mobs cannot be tanked effectively, so think before you engage.
• Typical approach is: tactical attack with enough preparation, if the target needs to be killed, avoid otherwise.

Sea combat, IMO, fits the Don't Starve world better, it requires planning and preparation, in contrast to land combat, which most of the time, does not require either.

Also, I'm not sure what mobs are causing the problem in sea combat? Swordfish is easy to kite on a cargo boat with snakeskin sail, Whales were easy to kite with armored boat and cloth sail (Didn't attack one since the last update, so I don't know about the changes). Tiger Shark, why the hell would you attack that on sea? It is easy enough to run away and find a land to fight it. Sea Hounds, again, why would you try to handle hounds at the sea? There is enough warning to get off the sea, which then you can get back on your boat and blast them from your boat, or the opposite. If nothing else works, sea hounds can be outrun utilizing the waves with any combination of alchemy engine sails and boats.

[WillPwn4Food]

1 hour ago, stl1234 said:

...Whales were easy to kite with armored boat and cloth sail (Didn't attack one since the last update, so I don't know about the changes)...

They're attack has been sped up significantly (or the semi-stunlock no longer works). They can wreck your boat somewhat quickly if you get too close and stay there. I've resorted to relying entirely on spearguns for them.

[AnonymousKoala]

I really like these ideas.

Sea Combat falls flat for 3 reasons:

Bringing a knife to a gun fight(everything almost is a melee attacker) in this case, means you're the one winning. 

The fact you get gangbanged so easily by melee enemies boils down to tanking it, and boat tanking is not an option as you will die easily.

Lack of variety(most melee weapons are unique. Most Ranged weapons that we have boil down to "does it do enough damage", and we dont have a lot of them either).

Boat speeding up via momentum is annoying because of how slow you start, and the fact you stop in your place when you shoot a ranged weapon means that just attacking puts you at a disadventage.

Having the weapons not force you to stop(at least when on sea), momentum gained faster, and enemies changed because this is not land combat and they act like it is, and sea combat is perfect. 

6 hours ago, stl1234 said:

Sea Hounds, again, why would you try to handle hounds at the sea? There is enough warning to get off the sea, which then you can get back on your boat and blast them from your boat, or the opposite.

If the only way to handle a mob on sea is to give up on it...that is not a valid way. 

[Hugeisno1]

I don't see any problem with sea combat as it is. Difficult to be sure but that's how it goes for us land dwellers.

[PhelsarusBeel]

1 hour ago, Hugeisno1 said:

I don't see any problem with sea combat as it is. Difficult to be sure but that's how it goes for us land dwellers.

It's pretty simple if you go 1v1 against most enemys on the Sea you'r pretty fine because you can concentrate much better on a single foe however once you encounter the Sea Houndwaves in later days it becomes pure awefull because Seahounds can easily Stunlock you and there is no Toothtrap equivalent to help you fend them off so it's really you VS them with no proper tools other then taking the hits (because you can't properly kite).

As for the COmbat itself as i said as long as you fight enemys 1v1 it's pretty okay specialy because Boats have fairly good HP Pools and with boatrepairkits it's easy to negate most damage mobs do. However this is 1v1 as soon as you get into fisticuffs with more then 1 enemy that isn't a Stinkray it basicly becomes a race of who can empty the HP pool of the opposing party quicker and most of the time the party with the Numberadvantage aka the Sea Hounds will win.

TBH the only real thing i would like is an equivalent to the Toothtrap so i can plan better ahead when i want to fight Sea Hounds (not that i want to since they drop f*** all in terms of usefull loot) or at least be able to create a little panic shelter like i do with regular hound attacks.

Something like Jellyfishmines that shock any seacreature when they get to close to them or actual Seamines (made with Coconades) that deal high damage to enemys just something i can make to be able to prepare myself a bit more when going after Sea Creatures.

[Hugeisno1]

15 hours ago, Mr.P said:

It's pretty simple if you go 1v1 against most enemys on the Sea you'r pretty fine because you can concentrate much better on a single foe however once you encounter the Sea Houndwaves in later days it becomes pure awefull because Seahounds can easily Stunlock you and there is no Toothtrap equivalent to help you fend them off so it's really you VS them with no proper tools other then taking the hits (because you can't properly kite).

As for the COmbat itself as i said as long as you fight enemys 1v1 it's pretty okay specialy because Boats have fairly good HP Pools and with boatrepairkits it's easy to negate most damage mobs do. However this is 1v1 as soon as you get into fisticuffs with more then 1 enemy that isn't a Stinkray it basicly becomes a race of who can empty the HP pool of the opposing party quicker and most of the time the party with the Numberadvantage aka the Sea Hounds will win.

TBH the only real thing i would like is an equivalent to the Toothtrap so i can plan better ahead when i want to fight Sea Hounds (not that i want to since they drop f*** all in terms of usefull loot) or at least be able to create a little panic shelter like i do with regular hound attacks.

Something like Jellyfishmines that shock any seacreature when they get to close to them or actual Seamines (made with Coconades) that deal high damage to enemys just something i can make to be able to prepare myself a bit more when going after Sea Creatures.

Just use the same strategy as you use again regular hounds. Get something else to kill them or draw their attention away from yourself.

What fool tries to fight hound waves without help? Simply lead them a merry chase past stinkrays or other ocean opponents and then then come back later to loot the field. That or stay on an island and fight the regular hounds. Hell, if you really don't want to fight them at sea then simply wait for the sea hounds to spawn then disembark onto an island. They'll get bored and wonder off in a day or so. You can pick them to pieces to your heart's content then.

Battle has always been a case of who can empty the other's heath pool first. I still don't see what the issue is.

 

A sea based trap wouldn't go amiss but battle is not impossible without it.

[stl1234]

4 minutes ago, Hugeisno1 said:

Simply lead them a merry chase past stinkrays or other ocean opponents and then then come back later to loot the field.

They easily tear trough most other sea mobs though, only ballphins really stand a chance, and they are kind of rare and cannot really be relocated.

It seems like sea hounds are the main reason why people don't like/having trouble with the sea combat, and I agree that there aren't any practical ways to deal with them aside from not dealing with them or basically cheating by going on land. While I believe some challenges are fine being intractable when approached head on, I would not oppose to adding ways to have a way to handle them on the ocean as well. Maybe the solution that would please most people would be one of:

• Some kind of sea trap as mentioned before. This works for large hound waves on land, so it can for sea hounds as well. Empty bottle + Jellyfish + Hounds tooth = snapper? Would work identically to tooth trap on land (limited uses, fire once & rewind).
• Additional friendly mobs on the ocean to deal with/thin the ranks of the sea hounds. Sea-lions?
• Ways to relocate ballphins (like beefalo or the pigs of the base game + RoG). Either by building a structure or simply by making them follow the player
• Ways to find/summon ballphins in times of need. Craftable Ballphin sonar?

[Hugeisno1]

6 minutes ago, stl1234 said:

They easily tear trough most other sea mobs though, only ballphins really stand a chance, and they are kind of rare and cannot really be relocated.

It seems like sea hounds are the main reason why people don't like/having trouble with the sea combat, and I agree that there aren't any practical ways to deal with them aside from not dealing with them or basically cheating by going on land. While I believe some challenges are fine being intractable when approached head on, I would not oppose to adding ways to have a way to handle them on the ocean as well. Maybe the solution that would please most people would be one of:

• Some kind of sea trap as mentioned before. This works for large hound waves on land, so it can for sea hounds as well. Empty bottle + Jellyfish + Hounds tooth = snapper? Would work identically to tooth trap on land (limited uses, fire once & rewind).
• Additional friendly mobs on the ocean to deal with/thin the ranks of the sea hounds. Sea-lions?
• Ways to relocate ballphins (like beefalo or the pigs of the base game + RoG). Either by building a structure or simply by making them follow the player
• Ways to find/summon ballphins in times of need. Craftable Ballphin sonar?

Oh I'm sure a clever player will find ways of dealing with them. Clever players always do.

They do indeed kill the stinkrays quite fast but rarely before being poisoned. Sometimes they even cause enough of a ruckus to attract a tiger shark. Now that's when things get interesting.

There's the option of leading them to water beefalo as well.

At worst they get scattered and weakened. At best they all die.

Cheating? No my good sir. All's fair in water and war. It's a valid strategy. I've had to abandon islands to land hounds before only to return later to deal with the scattered remains.  Sometimes the best course of action is a tactical retreat and some problems are best dealt with by letting others deal with them instead. Besides you don't go head on against land hounds either. It's a waste of resources at best. Death at worst.

Oh the possibilities are quite endless when it comes to what could be added. Sea walls. Sea platforms. Sea farms and so on.

[Kuirem]

On 28/2/2016 at 10:23 PM, ThaumicParrot said:

Tiger Shark- Could still do his belly dive, but also hurl hairballs at you.

Reminds me of something. Like the idea of Naval combat being more ranged.

[voyager156]

4 hours ago, stl1234 said:

Ways to find/summon ballphins in times of need. Craftable Ballphin sonar?

To summon them we could have a seashell-horn instrument:

[Grahf]

I usually use clockwork ships to deal with the sharkhounds. Just swim around the clockworks as they shoot their cannons, hopefully hitting the sharks that follow.