Money difference in normal mode, still too easy for veterans?

[JamesFactory]

Hey everybody. Just wondering if the other people with close to 100% win rate on story mode aren't really feeling the normal mode difficulty changes, pre-patch I had about 8 runs in a row with successful story mode completions, with 3/3 so far after the patch.  The difference in funds is definitely noticeable, though not really impeding me personally.  I was wondering if other highly successful operators are feeling the same.

 

I'm not saying that anything should be changed in this post, just wondering how the difference in funds is affecting you folks.

 

I personally like the change, as it does make some hard decisions (mainly nanofab decisions) harder still.  I hope that sometime in the future Klei will implement more challenges, though that is not really the point of this topic.

 

I'm still feeling that safe play, and smart decision making means a guaranteed victory for some of us, your thoughts?

[SAMM]

I made a similar comment on it in the release notes thread, but it's a lazy way of trying to make a game harder; by reducing reward for the same previous actions.

 

So while before you'd get $750 per mission and now you get $375 (fake numbers, but work with me here), while it slows down character building and item purchases, it doesn't make the game harder really, because most purchases and upgrades in game are optional. You can beat the game without ever buying a melee augmentation, or without ever putting a point into Anarchy.

 

So while it was an attempt to make the game more difficult, by making better items rarer in a sense, it doesn't make the game more difficult on a fundamental level, since all upgrades and items are optional and random.

 

So you're right, if you've got the fundamentals down pat, the game's probably not going to be any harder for you with less money rolling in, but each individual mission will feel less rewarding, which I think is a negative effect on enjoyment, really.

 

I hope they re-evaluate the decision (or who cares, really, it's a game) and try to toughen up the game at a fundamental level with changes to props and NPC interaction, rather than just nerfing progression to stretch out upgrade frequency or piling on more and more elements so that the fundamentals of the game becomes muddy and difficult by virtue of said mud.

[SAMM]

One easy way for them to make the game more difficult would be to, when a guard circles back on his path, he does a 180* glance (which way he rotates could be random), before heading back in that direction.

 

As it is they "snap" 180*, and never actually see anything beside them, which makes guards really blind right now if you know they all have miserable peripheral vision.

A change like that would make many cases more difficult to consider, but not any less rewarding.

[ShadowSimmons]

I would not classify myself as a highly successful operator. I have 3 completes under my belt, 2 pre-patch one post and about 4 or 5 failures. I do not consider money to be an issue. I seem to always have enough to get the crucial items. This is true of pre and post patch. If I had more money I would probably upgrade skills more but I'm happy with what I got. I blame my failures on bad luck (bad decisions possibly) during the gameplay itself not because I could of used some item that I couldn't afford or a skill that could of been higher. 

[Plugger]

Hi,

 

One easy way for them to make the game more difficult would be to, when a guard circles back on his path, he does a 180* glance (which way he rotates could be random), before heading back in that direction.

 

 

This is a great idea. Simple, easy and would make a big difference.

 

I've been playing for a while and it's definitely getting easier, and less enticing, as time goes on. A harder challenge would be appreciated.

 

Klei have done an excellent job developing the game from it's early days to now.

 

I hope they manage to find a way to  accommodate new players and more experienced ones.

 

 

[JamesFactory]

During the Devcast, they mentioned new threats are on the way . And they explained why things like turning are so predictable after you understand the mechanisms, and why it's a good thing, which I agreed with. If they add more complex situations with predictable mechanics, then you can actually plan your way through things, even if there are double the guards for example.

[ildarz]

One easy way for them to make the game more difficult would be to, when a guard circles back on his path, he does a 180* glance (which way he rotates could be random), before heading back in that direction.

 

As it is they "snap" 180*, and never actually see anything beside them, which makes guards really blind right now if you know they all have miserable peripheral vision.

A change like that would make many cases more difficult to consider, but not any less rewarding.

 

I don't think that it's good idea, current sight mechanics seems fine as it is. While it's easy to fool one guard, there is situations when you need to sneak past several guards in tight space. It's tricky enough right now, especially when there are guards with 180 arc of sight. Also if you will add random element to it, game will became not only more difficult but also much more frustrating. I'd like to see new challenges in the game but definitely not in style "flip the coin, if it turns head you are dead".

 

And speaking on topic, I don't feel that money difference affected my playstyle in any way, maybe because proper rewards for artifacts in vault missions was added.

[SAMM]

I don't think that it's good idea, current sight mechanics seems fine as it is. While it's easy to fool one guard, there is situations when you need to sneak past several guards in tight space. It's tricky enough right now, especially when there are guards with 180 arc of sight. Also if you will add random element to it, game will became not only more difficult but also much more frustrating. I'd like to see new challenges in the game but definitely not in style "flip the coin, if it turns head you are dead".

 

Fair enough, but as it is where 'alerted' guards travel through the map is/seems random, and we have a daemon that replicates itself over X random other hack points, so you could say we're already dealing with coin-flip scenarios.

 

But I agree, random isn't ideal in strategy games, because then it's not a strategy game. There's no strategy in dice.

 

In the case of my example of a challenge-adding-but-not-reward-reducing addition, I would expect players to expect the guard to rotate in both directions, which is part of the challenge. No more exploiting being a tile out of their visible even though like come on, I'm right beside you, I can smell your cologne.

[HolyDeath]

Fair enough, but as it is where 'alerted' guards travel through the map is/seems random, and we have a daemon that replicates itself over X random other hack points, so you could say we're already dealing with coin-flip scenarios.

 

But I agree, random isn't ideal in strategy games, because then it's not a strategy game. There's no strategy in dice.

 

Some claim X-COM: Enemy Unknown to not be about strategy, because the dice is involved thus you have to get lucky. The truth is that there is much strategy in influencing the odds by either increasing your chances and decreasing the enemy's by using smart positioning, items and abilities of your team to accomplish the mission.

 

Same is true for Invisible Inc.

[Sunswords]

I'm going to agree with JamesFactory here - they could definitely use a hard mode for more experienced players. IMO Normal mode for Story is still fairly balanced for most players (considering that they will need to get their feet wet and knowledgeable of game mechanics before they become veterans). Normal mode on Endless is a different story altogether, I find that the challenge drops drastically as soon as you have several pre-requisite items and maxed Stealth.

 

I also agree with SAMM that reducing resource (cash) is not the best way, since it's really a handicap and not a 'true' added challenge.

 

I thought about how to make the game more difficult (Hard mode), using the current mechanics:

1. A roaming hunter(s) searching all rooms - not necessarily a randomised search pattern, but they roam the map in a systematic but unknown order), not limited to a small loop.
2. Addition: Elite guards patrol more than 2 room lengths - we usually get a good sense of how patrols work within an enemy turn, this can be tweaked for difficult by increasing the amount of time we need to get a sense of their movements.
3. Increase armor on elite guards Alarm level 4 or 5+ - unless players are well equipped, this will quickly become difficult to juggle, especially for Story. This however, is more a function of super bad luck for veterans and we trip alarms (we should know not to increase our alarm rates so quickly)
4. Create an invincible hostile unit - as much as I hate to suggest this, this invincible unit would make things extremely difficult. (E.g., an invincible enemy spy/hero unit that can only melee your agents). Right now we can handle every unit in the game with some planning and equipment. Having an unbeatable condition with a deadline is the ultimate challenge (with only escape possible)
5. Edit: Marginally Increase Field of Vision for Basic Guards - enough said

[jamesl]

Love reading these suggestions and discussions. Keep e'm coming! 

I think we definitely agree on the major points -- the game is not hard enough in Normal mode right now, and lowering money does not add particularly interesting difficulty. I think the main ways we are going to be looking to add difficulty is new types of enemies and possibly some mechanics changes related to how guards move around and explore areas, especially enforcers. 

[Palpetinus]

As enforcers only spawn as reponders to the alarm, they should be a bit more dangerous. Right now I don't really mind them, they're just hunting guards, I never noticed anything particularly dangerous about them.

 

As a suggestion, since they're only here for hunting:

Their sight is limited, of course, just like every other agent's. Although they should be more aware and on guard, that's their job after all. I'd suggest to turn the area where they "notice" someone into a "watched" area aswell. So they are harder to sneak past, while still not being impossible and there's no fooling them with redirecting their patch by walking into the noticed area.

[ildarz]

I would say that currently difficulty has huge spikes depending on the particular level layout and guards positioning. The game is mostly more or less easy, but sometimes it provides adequate challenge. If difficulty will be raised smoothly, such "hard" spikes can easily become "impossible".

 

Also Alarm level 6 (where all guards become alerted) in many cases actually lowers difficulty instead of raising it - sometimes I deliberately wait for it to remove bottlenecks like several guards patrolling desired path.

 

And I always wonder why on high alarm levels no one specifically guards the elevator - the only escape route.

[Palpetinus]

And I always wonder why on high alarm levels no one specifically guards the elevator - the only escape route.

 

Be... Because... Because it's a game, okay? ;w;

I'm still curious as to why highly trained agents of espionage can only escape through an elevator.

I'm also curious why every company, ever, made only skyscrapers

[the truthseeker]

Be... Because... Because it's a game, okay? ;w;

I'm still curious as to why highly trained agents of espionage can only escape through an elevator.

I'm also curious why every company, ever, made only skyscrapers

I blame dystopian future stereotypes  

[Palpetinus]

I blame dystopian future stereotypes

Good point, lets just not get further into logics here and roll with that!

[JimThePea]

Be... Because... Because it's a game, okay? ;w;

I'm still curious as to why highly trained agents of espionage can only escape through an elevator.

I'm also curious why every company, ever, made only skyscrapers

I'm curious as to why they don't have stairwells, what happens if there's a fire? They don't even have the option of jumping out of the windows...

[the truthseeker]

I'm curious as to why they don't have stairwells, what happens if there's a fire? They don't even have the option of jumping out of the windows...

Apparently in the (dystopian) future, everybody can use the elevators in a fire. 

[Palpetinus]

I'm curious as to why they don't have stairwells, what happens if there's a fire? They don't even have the option of jumping out of the windows...

These guards are just lowly grunts, nobody will miss those.

[Galdred]

Fair enough, but as it is where 'alerted' guards travel through the map is/seems random, and we have a daemon that replicates itself over X random other hack points, so you could say we're already dealing with coin-flip scenarios.

 

But I agree, random isn't ideal in strategy games, because then it's not a strategy game. There's no strategy in dice.

 

In the case of my example of a challenge-adding-but-not-reward-reducing addition, I would expect players to expect the guard to rotate in both directions, which is part of the challenge. No more exploiting being a tile out of their visible even though like come on, I'm right beside you, I can smell your cologne.

Actually, randomness adds another layer of strategy : as you have to prepare for things not to go your way (ie risk management). Most  wargames use dice as a resolution mechanics, and strategy in poker is of critical importance in the long run.

 

But I agree that having a guard look left and right when investigating a point would make more sense, as would having guards return to their initial facing after they return from investigating something to their stationary station (it really looks silly that guards forget that they were supposed to guard the door, and stare at the blank wall after they were distracted by ping).

[JamesFactory]

Well todays update definitely adds a bit of difficulty! Good changes too!

[pekbro]

 

But I agree that having a guard look left and right when investigating a point would make more sense, as would having guards return to their initial facing after they return from investigating something to their stationary station (it really looks silly that guards forget that they were supposed to guard the door, and stare at the blank wall after they were distracted by ping).

 

Hi all, I agree with this point. However I think it being able to change the guards facing is fundamental to the game. But they should return to their original facing as soon as they are able to if they don't find anything at

said distraction.

 

Perhaps add the ability to distract guards with a  set amount of money (or gear) tossed on the ground where you want them to look to the first tier of anarchy. You would then have to steal it from them to get it back. You could distract them from for 1 to 3 turns depending on the amount of money you toss at them.

 

-Higher levels of anarchy decrease the amount of money required.

-The value of the gear would determine the number of turns.

-This would present a dilemma as no doubt you would want to retrieve your item if you are able.

-Some really expensive gear could be able to distract multiple guards.

 

This seems more realistic to me. And believe me I know how to distract security guards as I was head of a large security dept for a number of years.

 

Just a thought...

 

-Cheers

[GITMASTERZ]

i think new guards that bend the rules of sight would be very interesting, like an invisible guard that only has 2 tiles of sight, or a guard that you know his whereabouts all the time, but his sight ignores cloaking and cover

[DrMeat]

Give us more reasons to spend those money would be a good way...once the game progress...all the equipments are the best, you will get several hundred Ks of free money, or more...no where to spend...

 

Do you want to spend 250 cash to bribe the guard? Of course~take it~

Money really isn't the reason that makes the game easy to conquer.

But make full use of those free money or the reputation points might be a good way of changing our current way of gaming.

Maybe upgrades for incognica programs, equipments, or agent's unique ability, spend resources like money or time to crack the corporate intelligence,

 

Hope the levels could be more challenge as days of operation pass or reputation increase.

[pekbro]

How about this idea to combat the money problem...

This would apply to endless mode only.

 

-The back hack...

 

A failed hack results in a 50% chance of a trace, not to your location but to your bank account.

After all, you would think that the corps would have their own hackers on staff for corporate

espionage and what not.

 

This hack would result in a significant portion of your funds being liberated from your account.

Not all of it, Gladstone was able to interrupt them before they could take it all.

 

These funds would appear on the map at random the next day. You would receive intelligence on

up to 4 possible locations where it was taken, and you would only have 1 or 2 days in which to retrieve it.

At that point you would be able to split up your team as you like to be able to check these sites simultaneously

(in game time). This way you can decide your own odds of retrieval. 1 agent per site for 100% chance of locating

the money or 2 for 50%. How comfortable are you with solo missions? How well equipped are your agents?

 

 

Also, this could be potentially be good way to utilize a larger number of agents that you might have on staff

if you don't want to spike the difficulty too much. If you have 8 agents unlocked then you can use 2 per site

or whatever.

 

Of course, these missions should offer gear and or rep bonus's and be appropriately challenging.

 

Sorry, I keep trying to make the game harder...