Why do people hate caves?

[Ortorin]

You're missing the point entirely. Almost everything in the game that is 'optional' has its own risks and rewards for doing it. For me, a large part of the fun of the game is, in fact, figuring out what optional thing I'm going to do that will give me the best chance of survival. Caves aren't really like that. As far as I can tell, going into caves is always bad for you.

 

But that's not really why I don't like them. I mean, I like adventure mode, and it's completely optional. What I don't like about caves is that, in them, the gameplay is fundamentally different than on the surface. I've already described this at great length, but to sum up:

Gameplay in caves isn't about survival. You cannot find the resources to sustain yourself in them. You're supposed to keep returning to the surface whenever you start running low on health/sanity/food/armor/weapons/etc. That means that in caves you have a permanent safety net. If I started running out of any of those things on the surface, I'd have to start thinking about the best way to get more. In caves, the best solution is always to return to the surface. Also, even death doesn't seem like as big a deal in caves. If you die on the surface, whatever problems killed you will still be waiting for you after you resurrect. If you die in caves, whatever problem killed you probably isn't going to follow you to the surface. On the whole, this makes caves feel more like a sight-seeing expedition than a survival situation.

 

If you like caves in spite of that, that's fine. I'm not saying caves are bad. I'm saying they change core gameplay mechanics, and I don't happen to like the way they change them.

 

No sir, YOU are missing the point entirely. 

 

 

Now I really have to ask, what could possibly be wrong with an area of the game that is played differently than the surface? I get bored rather easily of fighting the same mobs, looking at the same scenery, doing the same sort of activities day in and day out. Having caves as an optional area to go explore in, where danger and death lurk around every rock, is a great way to break the tedious nature of living only to survive. Caves feel like an adventure mode that you don't have to leave all your items behind to play.

 

I argue that the people that don't like the caves simply cannot enjoy the challenge that comes from them. These people are spoiled by having daylight, food in every biome, easy to kill common mobs, and a big, well stock base to run to when they feel the least bit threatened at their disposal that they cannot live without these luxuries for half an hour to go spelunking. I believe it is a very immature, give me awesome stuff for little effort, mentality that is displayed by those that dislike caves due to their optional nature, and/or how hard Depths Worms are to kill in groups.

 

Caves are perfectly valid play areas in their current form. Try to learn to adapt you play style to the challenges that caves pose. Try to enjoy the adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment from fighting four Depths Worms at once and winning. Try to be the master of your world from top to bottom, not just another inhabitant that survives it.

 

No one can say they "beat" the game until they are able survive an indefinite amount of time in caves. I for one will "beat" this game and be the master of this world... THEY be damned!

[Cynical Cynicist]

My goal is to live in the Ruins as Wes. Aside from that, I don't really have an incentive to care about the caves.

[the truthseeker]

Agreed. if I want (the current as of this reply date's) level of Worm difficult, I'd simply play Wes. 

 

My goal is to live in the Ruins as Wes. Aside from that, I don't really have an incentive to care about the caves.

[Sporb]

Now I really have to ask, what could possibly be wrong with an area of the game that is played differently than the surface? I get bored rather easily of fighting the same mobs, looking at the same scenery, doing the same sort of activities day in and day out. Having caves as an optional area to go explore in, where danger and death lurk around every rock, is a great way to break the tedious nature of living only to survive. Caves feel like an adventure mode that you don't have to leave all your items behind to play.

No, you don't understand. I must not have been clear enough. Let me use this quote from Bigfoot about the DLC to clarify what I meant:

'We want to be able to make big scary changes to the game rules and do strange new things without changing the core, vanilla DS experience.'

I'm saying that caves change the core, vanilla DS experience. No, they don't feel like adventure mode to me; if they did, I'd enjoy them. They don't just make big scary changes to the game rules. They don't just add new challenges. Playing caves is a bit like playing a different game: a different game that I don't like. I didn't say there was something wrong with it; I just said that I don't enjoy it, and I think that there are others who feel the same way.

 

I argue that the people that don't like the caves simply cannot enjoy the challenge that comes from them. These people are spoiled by having daylight, food in every biome, easy to kill common mobs, and a big, well stock base to run to when they feel the least bit threatened at their disposal that they cannot live without these luxuries for half an hour to go spelunking. I believe it is a very immature, give me awesome stuff for little effort, mentality that is displayed by those that dislike caves due to their optional nature, and/or how hard Depths Worms are to kill in groups.

This hypothesis falls apart if you consider adventure mode. Adventure mode provides challenge. Setting up a large base is generally not a good idea. Food can be scarce. There's a level with no daylight. It even provides another difficulty you don't have to deal with in caves, which is the inability to take items with you.

Despite having all the things you say these people hate, I don't hear the same dislike for adventure mode that I hear for caves. I, for one, like adventure mode and dislike caves.

 

But I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time replying, because you've already decided that anyone who disagrees with you dislikes challenges, is bad at the game, and is immature to boot.

[the truthseeker]

I'll just say unlike Sanity, Caves added to the game in the update is optional and you can choose not to go there and still thrive even if ignoring it.

 

 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but am saying it appears the caves are made for people who have at least made it to mid-game (and not made for people who are just starting out a new world and haven't made a base and multiple sanity items/survived to their first or higher winter and found the Tam O' Shanter.)

[Norman1346]

I just want to say that I enjoy the caves. They are in my opinion a vastly superior addition to the game over adventure mode.

 

One gripe I do have is with the ancient pseudoscience station though. To build anything it offers you need things from the ruins such as thulicite and rare gems. So it seems redundant to me that you cannot prototype stuff, I mean I have to go to the ruins to get the materials anyway, why break the continuity of the prototyping mechanic?

[the truthseeker]

I just want to say that I enjoy the caves. They are in my opinion a vastly superior addition to the game over adventure mode.

 

One gripe I do have is with the ancient pseudoscience station though. To build anything it offers you need things from the ruins such as thulicite and rare gems. So it seems redundant to me that you cannot prototype stuff, I mean I have to go to the ruins to get the materials anyway, why break the continuity of the prototyping mechanic?

 

 

I thought the idea is you have to be there to craft it, so they gave nearby items because you have to always be there.

 

If you could prototype and not be altar or pseudo science station bound, then you could get items from far away. 

[jangofet]

Too much risk, not enough reward.

Risk:

depth worms

spiders

bunnies when you are carrying meat

insanity monsters on second level

tentacles

Slurtle/snurtle (not really)

Earthquakes

Constant problem between equipping sane clothes, light producing items, or weapons.

 

Reward:

Bunny stuff

Slurtle/snurtle stuff

Gems

More rocks that you can get on surface

more gems

 

Too much danger, not enough reward.

[Grumpy]

I argue that ... These people are spoiled by having daylight, food in every biome, easy to kill common mobs, and a big, well stock base to run to when they feel the least bit threatened at their disposal that they cannot live without these luxuries for half an hour to go spelunking. I believe it is a very immature, give me awesome stuff for little effort, mentality that is displayed by those that dislike caves due to their optional nature

That's just too rich.

 

And how would you feel about the caves and the worms if you weren't able to CHEAT to test out all your strategies.  Would you still be testing ways to kill six worms if you had to spend hours getting yourself into that position each time only to be killed and then having to start over?  Would you do it if you couldn't set up well lit field to build your test walls on and had to instead meet them in their true environment each time?

 

My point is, you're having to use extensive cheats to figure out how to handle the stock scenario.  Without them it would be nigh impossible to do what you've been doing.  That's not how a game should work.

[Ortorin]

No, you don't understand. I must not have been clear enough. Let me use this quote from Bigfoot about the DLC to clarify what I meant:

'We want to be able to make big scary changes to the game rules and do strange new things without changing the core, vanilla DS experience.'

I'm saying that caves change the core, vanilla DS experience. No, they don't feel like adventure mode to me; if they did, I'd enjoy them. They don't just make big scary changes to the game rules. They don't just add new challenges. Playing caves is a bit like playing a different game: a different game that I don't like. I didn't say there was something wrong with it; I just said that I don't enjoy it, and I think that there are others who feel the same way.

 

 

You say they change the core game play, I say you are wrong. Everything that is different about caves from the surface is nothing but a  setting changed on the world generation screen.

 

Season: Always summer                            ;;You never get cold down there.

Lighting (earth quakes): More                    ;;Something hits you, and the things around you from the sky.

Day: Always night                                       ;;Only you have more night lights.

Rain (Nightmare Cycle): More                    ;;The NC is a drain on your sanity like rain, but with monsters to kill.

Pig Men: More                                            ;;I say more because you have two different types of "Pig Men followers"                                                                                                                          ;;to recruit: Bunny Men and Rockthulus.

Spiders: More                                            ;;And with new abilities

Hounds (Depths Worms): Lots

Fireflies (Light Bulbs): More

 

"Changing the core, vanilla DS experience." means messing with the mechanics of the game. The mechanics have no been changed, only the content that is displayed.  As stated above in my list, each new item, enemy, and event has an analog on the surface. The core game play still remands the same, these are simply new challenges.

 

Another way to put it is: there is a surface world generation setting, and there is a cave generation setting. They are simply different worlds to play in, just like adventure mode.

 

This hypothesis falls apart if you consider adventure mode. Adventure mode provides challenge. Setting up a large base is generally not a good idea. Food can be scarce. There's a level with no daylight. It even provides another difficulty you don't have to deal with in caves, which is the inability to take items with you.

Despite having all the things you say these people hate, I don't hear the same dislike for adventure mode that I hear for caves. I, for one, like adventure mode and dislike caves.

 

People also dislike starting adventure mode on the "King of Winter", but they do it because they have to in order to unlock some character. Or maybe they simply want to overcome the challenge that adventure mode poses. Caves are nothing more than another challenge. If you do not like taking on that challenge, if that challenge is too laborious a task for you enjoy for you to actually enjoy beating it, well guess what... that simply means you cannot play EXPERT MODE.

 

That's right, there might be that "Challenge mode" with all the different maps it has, but but there is only one "Expert Mode" map, that is Caves. If you can't hang, than go back to the surface. Us pros are going to make it our *****.

 

 

But I'm not sure why I'm wasting my time replying, because you've already decided that anyone who disagrees with you dislikes challenges, is bad at the game, and is immature to boot.

 

You are immature because you are crying that Expert Mode is too hard of a challenge for you to complete. Tough luck. Other players that that have the guts and skill to take on the challenge for what it is, enjoy it greatly. 

 

If you stopped whining about it, (and yes, I am calling your posts whining about it. They might be long, thought out statements, but your posts are still about not enjoying playing Expert Mode because you can't complete it.)if you try to actually take on the challenge for what it is, you might find yourself enjoying Caves. If not, than you are just not hardcore. Whatever, not everyone is a hardcore player of this game.

 

So to conclude I would like to summarize:

 

The core mechanics of the game were never changed, only the world generation settings and the items, mobs, and events being generated.

 

All caves are is the Expert Mode of the game.

 

If you cannot handle playing Expert Mode then cool, don't play it. But we who actually like the challenge, and enjoy surviving in the Caves enjoy it greatly.

 

*Edited to fix format the format is still messed up anyways. xD*

[Ortorin]

That's just too rich.

 

And how would you feel about the caves and the worms if you weren't able to CHEAT to test out all your strategies.  Would you still be testing ways to kill six worms if you had to spend hours getting yourself into that position each time only to be killed and then having to start over?  Would you do it if you couldn't set up well lit field to build your test walls on and had to instead meet them in their true environment each time?

 

My point is, you're having to use extensive cheats to figure out how to handle the stock scenario.  Without them it would be nigh impossible to do what you've been doing.  That's not how a game should work.

 

Everybody had a different way of approaching a challenge. Some people like to take the challenge head-on, trying to muscle through it and figure it out on the go. Others like to sit back and strategize . I am a strategist. I run scenarioin my head, test them out with different tools, and see what works for me. Once I have made some plans, I implement them.

 

I may be using cheats for testing out how to fight the Depths worms, but I still have to DO it when I play in Caves on a regular save game. If I were to die while playing then guess what; I go back the drawing board. I'll think of new techniques, test, practice, and then apply the new plans to the next playthru.

 

This is my play style. You have your own.

[the truthseeker]

Look, if you can't enter caves, you can still play the game. Therefore, it can't change the core mechanic. If you got some new character or your character only could get abilities from the cave, then I'd consider it "core."

But it's optional. Love it or hate it, it's optional. Like Adventure mode, once you (successfully) exit it, you don't have to return if you wish.

 

Or you can. Your choice, your option.  

[Will]

I like caves because they have good music, add more things to do and fight, and add more to the world. That's all. Plzkthnksbie

[TeoSS69]

Too much risk, not enough reward.

Risk:

depth worms

spiders

bunnies when you are carrying meat

insanity monsters on second level

tentacles

Slurtle/snurtle (not really)

Earthquakes

Constant problem between equipping sane clothes, light producing items, or weapons.

 

Reward:

Bunny stuff

Slurtle/snurtle stuff

Gems

More rocks that you can get on surface

more gems

 

Too much danger, not enough reward.

Most cave and ruins items are made so you don't have any more need to constantly grind for grass twigs and logs on day 300. I go into caves to farms slime for my Miner Helmet so I don't have to keep Grass and Twigs to make torches. I go into ruins to make the Star Caller so I don't have to keep grass and logs to make fires. I go for the Hunger Belt that benefits Wolfgang a lot. I go for the Lazy Explorer that drastically decreases the distance I have to walk. I go for the Crown that doesn't let spiders stunlock me. I go for the Rabbit Hutches so I don't have to make traps to farm Spiders. I go for Rock Lobsters so I don't have to constantly make tooth traps for protection. etc. etc.

Are these items needed to survive? Absolutely not. Do they make late game something more than just grinding? You bet your ass it does.

The main problem with caves was already stated by @the truthseeker . Items are not the problem, they're the contrary.

 

That's just too rich.

 

And how would you feel about the caves and the worms if you weren't able to CHEAT to test out all your strategies.  Would you still be testing ways to kill six worms if you had to spend hours getting yourself into that position each time only to be killed and then having to start over?  Would you do it if you couldn't set up well lit field to build your test walls on and had to instead meet them in their true environment each time?

 

My point is, you're having to use extensive cheats to figure out how to handle the stock scenario.  Without them it would be nigh impossible to do what you've been doing.  That's not how a game should work.

You don't need cheats, just a back up plan. Also worms unlike hounds, stop chasing you if you got too far away even if there aren't other mobs nearby. Meaning you can come back later and pick them one by one.

[Nyx_Overkill]

Thulecite suit/crown/club + houndius shootius.nough said why to go down there... xD