Seasons (long list of analysis and suggestions)

[Melendwyr]

In this thread I'd like to explore the proposed concept of Seasons and the implications for gameplay and design in Don't Starve.

Year and Season Length

First, it's worth noting that putting in a full-length year of three hundred and sixty five days is probably not worth it. Even highly skilled players are unlikely to live long enough to see a year pass. Therefore, I would suggest that a 'year' be a much smaller cycle of days, with each season taking up about a fourth of this year. What if each season lasted fifteen days, and a year was sixty? (Or ten and forty, something like that.)

[edit] A 'season' lasting seven days and a 'year' lasting 28 would be a nice reference to how this world is different from ours. Things would be speeded up from a week and month, respectively.

Season Significance and Reproduction

In the real world, the seasons control or influence the lifecycles of many organisms. Many creatures breed and bear offspring only in certain seasons, or they DON'T do those things in particular seasons. The details depend heavily on the nature of the organism in question. My proposals:

• Beefalo should calve in spring, and the calves should take three seasons to grow to full size. (Once a year, one calf is produced.)
  
• Rabbits should have litters in spring and summer.
  
• Birds should replenish their numbers in summer.
  
• Berry bushes should fruit only in season (summer and fall?).
  
• Grass regrows, but it takes a season to do so - and doesn't regrow in winter.
  
• Tallbirds are... well, weird. They shouldn't produce eggs in winter. Other seasons? Perhaps.
  

Outside of those seasons, the population should remain more-or-less constant. Mimicking a real ecosystem would be too complicated for this sort of game, of course, but it could be convincingly faked. So, there's a 'carrying capacity' for each type of creature, and once the population had risen to that value, no new creatures would be born. The generation of new creatures would depend on the existing population numbers, though, so sufficient overharvesting could lead to extinction. Some creatures would respawn very rapidly (especially rabbits) while beefalo would take a long, long time to replenish their numbers.

Trees

Trees currently grow very rapidly. This strikes me as unrealistic to the extreme, even a game that eschews 'realism' as much as DS. I would suggest the following changes:

• Trees keep the basic life cycle they have now, slowly growing from seedlinghood to maturity to death to regeneration. But the length of time they spend in each stage should be longer - a season, or maybe even a year. A season would be less real, but probably better for gameplay.
  
• Before turning into a young tree, a planted pinecone should be a mound of dirt or smudged location on the ground - essentially an extra growth stage. Regrowing trees should be a long-term endeavor, and harvesting wood would rapidly turn a forest into a wasteland of stumps if care is not taken.
  
• Trees in the mature stage should have a small chance of dropping a pinecone each day. These pinecones would persist, and slowly decay. Only a limited number can exist in any given area before they stop dropping, regardless of tree status. (See also my thread on torches for an explanation of why I think these drops are desirable.)

Night Length

Due to axial tilt, in the Northern Hemisphere Summer has long periods of day with only a few hours of night and Winter long hours of night with a few hours of day. I would suggest that the dark/light cycle of DS change with the seasons. At present, the game world seems to be in a summer mode - long periods of daylight and a little dark. I would make this characteristic of summer only; spring and autumn would have roughly equal amounts of day and night, and winter nights would dominate.

The implications for survival are, I think, obvious and profound. But interesting! (Losing is fun!)

Gardening

This is a tricky issue. I would suggest first that gardening plots should not function in winter. Other seasons, sure. I would also propose that crops can currently be grown far too quickly with fertilization, but that it's too hard to grow a reasonable number of plants because of the expense of resources and space required.

So: planted seeds go through a single 'growth stage' each day, and spend an initial day as mere planted seeds. During this initial stage they are vulnerable to being removed by birds unless the player stays nearby to chase them off (or possibly a scarecrow is built). Once they've sprouted, they can be hasted one stage per day by addition of fertilizer - no more. They would also be vulnerable to being eaten by rabbits or beefalo, who would find the plants attractive. Possibly a fence would be required.

But I would also suggest that more than one plant be possible in a prepared area. Four, perhaps even nine. And when the crop is harvested, there should be a chance of a seed being produced as well - not every time, or there'd be no need to gather them, but often enough that replanting a collection of fields isn't an impossible burden. Just a soul-crushing one. :cD

***

Taken together, it should be difficult to maintain the local population of plants and animals, and relatively easy to decimate them by incautious use. Imagine the world turned into a barren wasteland, populated only by hordes of ravenous spiders! This could be the fate of Don't Starve if players don't balance the need for survival with the need to maintain the world.

Thoughts, anyone? Feedback? Further suggestions would be appreciated.

[Grim]

I like your ideas, they seem resonable and all. I wish that the farms could produce more than one crop, several in fact. this could make it so they only grow in proper season.

and on a side note i believe seasons have been suggested before.

[mobius187]

In this thread I'd like to explore the proposed concept of Seasons and the implications for gameplay and design in Don't Starve.

Sure, why not? The seasons suggestion hasn't been discussed as much as I would like and I usually just end up repeating minor snippets. Let's see what you're propsing.

First, it's worth noting that putting in a full-length year of three hundred and sixty five days is probably not worth it. Even highly skilled players are unlikely to live long enough to see a year pass. Therefore, I would suggest that a 'year' be a much smaller cycle of days, with each season taking up about a fourth of this year. What if each season lasted fifteen days, and a year was sixty? (Or ten and forty, something like that.)

Maximum survival duration is highly debatable. To be honest if there were no new builds I could go on living forever and I know a few veteran members have exceeded 400+ days. The problem is most dangers are avoidable and food isn't an issue. Of course the DEVs are taking this into account and the next update, which will include the hounds, will make long term survival much harder.

That being said 15 days is still far too short for a season. I would suggest that at minimum we have 30-day cycles per season. That would give the full impact to the player and I wouldn't see the need to go beyond a 120-day year. By those terms I would have survived just over a year in my current game.

Beefalo should calve in spring, and the calves should take three seasons to grow to full size. (Once a year, one calf is produced.)

I suggest beefalo give birth during spring and that these babies grow into adults during the summer. Of course I'm basing this on each season being 30 days, so 60 days from birth to adulthood shouldn't be an issue, and that's also the main reason why I'm not agreeing with the suggestion of 3 seasons.

Rabbits should have litters in spring and summer.

I would opt for a simpler solution. Have it that when a rabbit is killed its hole is marked as empty and then 3-5 days need to pass before a new rabbit will spawn from the hole. Then during the winter have it at about a 10% that a rabbit will exit or poke its head out of its hole. This would make it much harder to hunt rabbits during winter.

Birds should replenish their numbers in summer.

Again, I would opt for a simpler solution. Fewer birds and having bird never land in unbaited traps.

Berry bushes should fruit only in season (summer and fall?).

I would say spring and summer as normal, then double the growth period in fall (i.e. longer wait), and then none during winter.

Grass regrows, but it takes a season to do so - and doesn't regrow in winter.

I would leave this as it currently works, with the exception of agreeing about it not regrowing during winter as another hardship of that season. Of course my main reason for saying this is because I would like to see beefalo eat grass (and only when they do so create manure).

Tallbirds are... well, weird. They shouldn't produce eggs in winter. Other seasons? Perhaps.

Yes. I would say eggs for all season except winter. Also, the eggs should hatch in one season (30 days) spawning a baby tallbird that eats berries. Then next season (after 30 days) the baby tallbird becomes an adult.

So, there's a 'carrying capacity' for each type of creature, and once the population had risen to that value, no new creatures would be born. The generation of new creatures would depend on the existing population numbers, though, so sufficient overharvesting could lead to extinction. Some creatures would respawn very rapidly (especially rabbits) while beefalo would take a long, long time to replenish their numbers.

As I suggested, if beefalo need to eat grass and tallbirds need to eat berries, then you can create your own population control. Simply have it that any adult/baby that doesn't eat starves in 1-2 days. That way, if there are too many there will always be those who cannot eat and then will die off.

Trees currently grow very rapidly. This strikes me as unrealistic to the extreme, even a game that eschews 'realism' as much as DS. I would suggest the following changes:

I agree, so let's see what you suggest.

Trees keep the basic life cycle they have now, slowly growing from seedlinghood to maturity to death to regeneration. But the length of time they spend in each stage should be longer - a season, or maybe even a year. A season would be less real, but probably better for gameplay.

Mmm, that would be too long no matter whose season duration (mine or yours) you considered. My suggestion is that when a player plants a pinecone it should become a "seedling" or "sprout" for a lifecycle of the tree. During this time the tree is useless to the player and cannot be harvested (however it could be burned down). Also, pinecones that are on the ground for more than 1 day also become seedlings automatically rather than just waiting for the player to come back and plant them.

Before turning into a young tree, a planted pinecone should be a mound of dirt or smudged location on the ground - essentially an extra growth stage. Regrowing trees should be a long-term endeavor, and harvesting wood would rapidly turn a forest into a wasteland of stumps if care is not taken.

As above, I agree about the extra growth cycle, but not the duration. Right now logs are a primary resource for the player and we should balance reality against gameplay. Otherwise this will just create situations where the players have to trek farther and farther to gather resources, and while that may sound accurate... it's not fun.

Trees in the mature stage should have a small chance of dropping a pinecone each day. These pinecones would persist, and slowly decay. Only a limited number can exist in any given area before they stop dropping, regardless of tree status. (See also my thread on torches for an explanation of why I think these drops are desirable.)

An interesting idea, but why would they decay?

Due to axial tilt, in the Northern Hemisphere Summer has long periods of day with only a few hours of night and Winter long hours of night with a few hours of day. I would suggest that the dark/light cycle of DS change with the seasons. At present, the game world seems to be in a summer mode - long periods of daylight and a little dark. I would make this characteristic of summer only; spring and autumn would have roughly equal amounts of day and night, and winter nights would dominate.

Right now I would prefer that the day durations remained constant... but I won't completely dismiss a suggestion to the contrary.

This is a tricky issue. I would suggest first that gardening plots should not function in winter. Other seasons, sure. I would also propose that crops can currently be grown far too quickly with fertilization, but that it's too hard to grow a reasonable number of plants because of the expense of resources and space required.

Agreed.

So: planted seeds go through a single 'growth stage' each day, and spend an initial day as mere planted seeds. During this initial stage they are vulnerable to being removed by birds unless the player stays nearby to chase them off (or possibly a scarecrow is built). Once they've sprouted, they can be hasted one stage per day by addition of fertilizer - no more. They would also be vulnerable to being eaten by rabbits or beefalo, who would find the plants attractive. Possibly a fence would be required.

I agree with birds eating planted seeds, the scarecrow protecting the planted seeds, and having rabbits eat the plants at certain stages in their growth. However I don't see beefalo eating them, but that may be because I suggested that beefalo would only eat grass. As for fertilizer (manure) I'm split. Part of me thinks it should speed up growth at all and the current growth cycle is fine... or maybe 1-2 days longer at most. The other side of me sees the obvious benfits of manure for crop growth. So I'll leave my opinion as split.

But I would also suggest that more than one plant be possible in a prepared area. Four, perhaps even nine. And when the crop is harvested, there should be a chance of a seed being produced as well - not every time, or there'd be no need to gather them, but often enough that replanting a collection of fields isn't an impossible burden. Just a soul-crushing one. :cD

I would like it if players could "sacrifice" a grown/harvested plant to acquire its seeds. Also, I would like to see berries removed as a crop... we already have them growing on bushes.

[The_Dizzie]

I think a full year would be great, I reached 100+ days before I decided to just die and cash in my points for new characters. Also Season length should vary a bit like it does in real life, maybe have trigger objects that can end them faster. Like you could dig up a rabbit hole, if a groundhog pops out, it would end winter early or some such, it would be funny.

[Riddling Sphinx]

One thing I would like to see is seasonal representation of Spring/Summer/Autumn/Winter. By which, I mean weather changes, flora/fauna changes, and variable resources. So, for example, flowers on the spring, but less until none in the winter.

[dbernard456]

I vote yea for the seasons and for extreme weather.

I would force players to change his survival strategies, forcing them to stockpile food and avoiding a to become reliant on a unique survival strategy ( example, camping near a cluster of rabbit holes, trapping them as if there was no tomorrow and living of morsel for the remaining of the game ).

[mobius187]

I vote yea for the seasons and for extreme weather.

Yup. I would like to see rainstorms, thunderstorms and fog during the spring/summer/autumn (in varied amounts, say less rain during summer), while blizzards and snowstorms cause trouble during winter.

[dbernard456]

If it does not violate George R. R. Martin copyright, the warning for winter could be

The character says : "Winter is coming".

[501105]

Seasons and dynamic weather have so much potential. The more random content in the game, the more survival gets different from day to day. That way you can play the game for much longer without getting bored and having seen it all.

[NeedPants]

I enjoyed reading both the OP and mobius input to those ideas. Seasons definately seem like a good idea to me. Would make the game even more interesting. Pretty much as 501105 said: it increases the replayability of the game by alot.

Relying more on meat in winters due to the lack of berries and farmveggies already makes for a good change of pace, also lack of tree and grassgrowth in winter would make this a very though season indeed. Gonna have to stack up on resources to survive this.

There need to be some downsides to spring and the other seasons too tho, such as the drought of the summer, where alot more trees are dead on average and the max amount of animals is lower than in spring. Slower grow times in autumn. Just cant think of anything in spring to go wrong, well i guess its oke to have an easiest season ^_^.

Lots of food for thought.

[mobius187]

If it does not violate George R. R. Martin copyright, the warning for winter could be

The character says : "Winter is coming".

Nah. That's too common a saying.

Seasons and dynamic weather have so much potential. The more random content in the game, the more survival gets different from day to day. That way you can play the game for much longer without getting bored and having seen it all.

Yes, weather connected to the seasons would allow for more varied situations. For example, have rainstorms mostly during spring/autumn, but uncommon in summer. Have thunderstorms common in summer, but uncommon in spring/autumn. Have fog only in autumn... because it's spookier that way. Also randomly have windy days, with tree leaves occasionally flying past the screen. Then winter would have snowstorms and blizzards (which, like fog, would reduce maximum visibility... akin to torchlight at night or less).

Of course there could also be freak weather, like a tornado that strikes once every 30-45 days or so, making them rare usually only once a year events.

Then you could also have events connected to the moon phases rather than weather, like the "blood moon" in Terraria which causes monsters to become more powerful and dangerous.

I enjoyed reading both the OP and mobius input to those ideas. Seasons definately seem like a good idea to me. Would make the game even more interesting. Pretty much as 501105 said: it increases the replayability of the game by alot.

Yes, seasons would forced players to change the playing habits. If you only farm then come autumn you would find that you are no longer harvesting as much... and by winter you have no way to grow food. Hopefully such a player had stocked up and has enough to survive until spring, that or they could try their hand a foraging.

Of course this is where I think a Stamina gauge would be useful, because during the warmer months (spring/summer) stamina would be tracked against physically strenuous tasks, like chopping down trees. And give added purpose to "hiring" pig men to help you with these chores as you become tired. Then rainstorms/thunderstorms would wear away at your stamina slowly over time if you are standing outside during this kind of weather. In the autumn the effects would be slightly more severe as the rain would be colder, while in winter simply being away from a fire source would cause stamina to lower as you get cold, and snowstorms/blizzards would lower stamina faster. Of course the solutions would be to stay close to fire and/or wear warm clothes (beefalo jacket/hat) to reduce the effects significantly at the trade off (i.e. lose the protection provided by the log suit, for example).

There is a lot that could be realized by implementing weather, seasons, and a stamina gauge. In fact, I consider a stamina gauge more important than a thirst gauge, as you could group that with the current hunger gauge (if not making it as explicit).

Relying more on meat in winters due to the lack of berries and farmveggies already makes for a good change of pace, also lack of tree and grassgrowth in winter would make this a very though season indeed. Gonna have to stack up on resources to survive this.

Exactly. Survival is all about being prepared... and in all honesty, everyone should have a clear idea how winter works. No one should be surprised by its effects, and that's in synch with the game's theme of letting players realize for themselves what they need to do.

Also, as Kevin mentioned before, he is considering on adding "rot" into the game. I think this is great news because I horde meat and veggies, and in some cases I have food I gathered from back at the start of the game that I never got around to eating. That's messed up when you really think about it. I want food to rot so that early on we won't be able to save food, we would collect it and eat it to survive. Then, with time, would could learn how to craft ways to preserve food, and I'm of course referring to other ideas I've made, like the ice box (which requires a source of ice blocks... like a snowy island biome) or drying/salting fish (not my suggestion, but a good one). Also if salt is introduced we could turn ordinary meat into salted meat, which I suggest wouldn't be as filling (because of the taste), but lasts much longer. While fruits and veggies could be combined with glass jars to create preserves (i.e. berries => berry jam, cucumbers => pickles, ect).

There need to be some downsides to spring and the other seasons too tho, such as the drought of the summer, where alot more trees are dead on average and the max amount of animals is lower than in spring. Slower grow times in autumn. Just cant think of anything in spring to go wrong, well i guess its oke to have an easiest season ^_^.

Agreed. That's why I suggested less rainstorms during summer, to make it the "dry season". As someone else suggested rain could make crops and other plants grow faster, so a lack of rain would strip out that benefit, but at the same time maybe crops could "wilt" under the heat and need water... and while I don't want to add more items, maybe a multi-purpose wooden bucket could be added to the game. You fill it with water from ponds (or rivers... I would like to see rivers in the game) or a well (i.e. something you could build with lots of stone and some wood, plus rope). Of course I wouldn't suggest adding a bucket just for this, as the bucket could also be used to carry lots of other liquids like oil (from swamps... it could bubble up in patches) and rubber resin (collected from rubber trees, as part of the slingshot idea).

And yes, I think spring should be the easiest season because it follows winter, the harshest season for the player. In that way it would be like a reward for the player having survived the winter...