Nerf to summer watering can strategy

[ShadowDuelist]

We also tend to craft and use a lot of starcallers, which you can turn to mooncaller staves on full moons (which is any day with wickerbottom or after crab king). Those staves have a lot of uses, can be placed anywhere, the polar light lasts 2 days and its cooling effect incredibly intense. 

I think we have a lot of cheap options already, they just require a bit of preparation:
 

Spoiler

- Eyebrellas can be mass farmed in winter in multiplayer servers
- Chilling amulet is decently cheap, and the gems can be easily farmed by killing blue hounds in winter at any hound nest area and/or killing dragonfly every 20 days.
- Floral vest is okay-ish as an emergency item if you did not get an eyebrella , but its probably worth using to get desert goggles.
- There are dozens of moosegoose nests around and after the moslings spawn, you can quickly make a stack of feathers, which will last you several summers for luxury fans.
- If you are the lucky ice chester bearer, as long as you keep it alive, then most of your summer problems are gone.
- characters that don’t mind wetness (Wurt, Wormwood) can go around with ice hats. Ice is available all year long now (Iceberg mining)
- WX can bypass thermals or any overheating mechanic entirely
- Wicker can cast permanent rain trough summer which will make the enviroment bearable for most characters, up until the last days of summer (when you will need something other than wetness to cool down)
- Teleporting characters can go back to exchange their thermals in a fridge in a few seconds.

And if you add caves usage, caves will entirely negate overheating, you can easily farm a large chunk of blue gems, or craft starcallers to turn into mooncallers.

I agree that summer is a bit more annoying than winter, and the thermal stone exploit made it a lot easier, but I don’t see it as a really cathastrophic change since the options to fight overheating are still plenty.

Wildfires on the other hand, after the perma rain exploit (with moslings) was gone, still remains very problematic. The “official” options to prevent them are very few and the rng nature of them happening slightly offscreen makes them incredibly problematic.
 

TL:DR: some exploits cleverly solved problems, and once those exploits were removed, the underlying problems are hard to fix with what we have. This exploit IMO does not seem like one of them.

[Jakepeng99]

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Who knows, maybe someday the devs will allow us to use these items without having to put the backpack aside. The fact is, the thermal stone easily solves the game's temperature issues.

It's a good thing Pearl provided a consistent late-game alternative to the Thermal Stone. Still, it remains questionable to have items in the game that are good but impractical due to the loss of 14 backpack slots.

This is a more of a dont starve together 2 thing. (Iykyk)

[RubLog6]

5 hours ago, mima_ said:

i dont think feather is a problem. the problem is people dont know how to UTILIZE this item properly ^^ 

This feels backhanded.

I do craft this item and use it... when I play solo or lights out... anyhow, youre telling me... I should spend a whole season in the vicinity of my friends. 

Down feathers have other uses too. 10 for a weather pain (also requires a gear), 2 for a book... Not everyone can do fw without wp/bsstaff.

That killing method you shared, requires lightning rod, grass and twigs... not too bad of an issue. Yet, more items added to a list just to fight a seasonal boss. Edit: okay i reread your comment about leaving the mother out, my bad but it is still a hassle no? If one mosling calls momma, mom comes down aggro on you, you'll have to move, chances are the moslings will escape anyway. Sorry, but I think that's a ridiculous amount of work for a seasonal boss... I see how it is, exploiting mob pathfinding (for a relatively easy fight) is fine, but watering can cooling is not. Ironic.

4 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

We also tend to craft and use a lot of starcallers, which you can turn to mooncaller staves on full moons (which is any day with wickerbottom or after crab king).

I already commented on moon callers and yellow gems previously. Also, let's not go to wildfires, watering can nerf doesnt have anything to do with that. Just put it out with the same watering can or the fabled luxury fan. You're right however, as much as I'm seemingly whining about it, overheating is not that difficult to pull through.

This nerf was just plain unnecessary-that was my gripe. This nerf does not make you a better player in any way whatsoever. It just forces you to slow down and cooldown for a good while (in the case of placing down an endo fire here and there; I've never seen anyone use a chilled amulet. All I know it has low durability and temperature change still takes time).

I guess you could argue that pouring water on a rock causing it to go below freezing temperature doesn't make any sense. But then again I can fix said rock with a sewing kit for some reason.

Additionally, it just becomes rigorous when joining a public server in summer. Let's hope they've got extra feathers for you at base 😄... oh wait they don't, no one bothered to kill a second moose in spring. WX just killed one for their circuits and that was pretty much it.

Edited Saturday at 07:09 PM by RubLog6

[Popian]

16 hours ago, Walrusst said:

if the nerf was unintended due to back end spaghetti code

From the OP you can tell that it's a definition thing where "cold resistance resists cold" so it is an intended change in that sense. This makes it less likely (though non-zero because they are watching) that an exception will be made, even if it wasn't targeting this interaction specifically.

 

[DVGMedia]

16 hours ago, Walrusst said:

Honestly its sort of besides the point of us debating whether or not it should be gone, if the nerf was unintended due to back end spaghetti code then the old strategy where you could cool a thermal stone using roughly 2/3rds a watering can was a strategy the devs respected and it will be restored probably now that the complaint has happened.

I think it may actually be part of the update and maybe they will create things that lower temperature of the player.  Right now currently the only things that lower the temperature of a player thats not just set the player to -2(Klaus spell and mutated buzzards) are deerclops attacks and waterballoons. with this new update winter insulation does actually protect the player from those minor deductions. 

But it really could be something they are planning for the future.  
The only thing i kind of hate is that often times when klei has an idea they will implement it partially and then it never really gets completed.  And that has been years of history. 
I would think it would be better to show that this is a thing that happens. with new mobs or attacks that lower temperature and then implement the change so can have it be like here is a counter. 

[Cruvimaster]

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

This is a more of a dont starve together 2 thing. (Iykyk)

They will probably do what they don't want to do in DST.

[Cheggf]

21 hours ago, RubLog6 said:

Theres limited eyebrellas and luxury fans to go around. 

No there isn't. There was already more than enough room to support an infinite amount of players through the summer with the summer frest (better eyebrella), cooling foods, wetness application, Chester, endothermic fires, being in the caves, etc. Even without a single eyebrella you could easily have 100+ people go through the entire summer without a single death from overheating - you'd sooner have people dying of malnourishment than a lack of options for dealing with the heat.

But even with all of that, for some reason, they decided that there shouldn't be limited eyebrellas to go around. They added the hostile flare so that in the first winter instead of getting 1 eyebrella, you can get up to 9 eyebrellas in the first winter. This is more eyebrellas than the server size limits of both 6 and 8, only on a 12 player server would even a single person have to actually think about doing anything except for using the eyebrella. In a 12 player server 9 people could just run around with eyebrellas, 1 person could just use ice chester, and then a whopping 2 people would have to actually do something else.

But even with infinite eyebrellas available, in my experience most people are either disconnected or in the caves during the summer, so even in a 12 player server I doubt there would be any contention over eyebrellas unless you were just completely ignoring the existence of Deerclops until it was too late to acquire them. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

10 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Who knows, maybe someday the devs will allow us to use these items without having to put the backpack aside. The fact is, the thermal stone easily solves the game's temperature issues.

It's a good thing Pearl provided a consistent late-game alternative to the Thermal Stone. Still, it remains questionable to have items in the game that are good but impractical due to the loss of 14 backpack slots.

It's a dream, but a distant one probably.

[Lovens]

That sucks, it was a cool strategy and I enjoyed using it in new worlds or boss rushes before getting my hands on a Moon Caller Staff. But I'm not surprised to see Klei take the fun out of the game by patching an unconventional item use or a niche strategy. It wouldn't be the first time it happened. 

[Walrusst]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

No there isn't. There was already more than enough room to support an infinite amount of players through the summer with the summer frest (better eyebrella), cooling foods, wetness application, Chester, endothermic fires, being in the caves, etc. Even without a single eyebrella you could easily have 100+ people go through the entire summer without a single death from overheating - you'd sooner have people dying of malnourishment than a lack of options for dealing with the heat.

But even with all of that, for some reason, they decided that there shouldn't be limited eyebrellas to go around. They added the hostile flare so that in the first winter instead of getting 1 eyebrella, you can get up to 9 eyebrellas in the first winter. This is more eyebrellas than the server size limits of both 6 and 8, only on a 12 player server would even a single person have to actually think about doing anything except for using the eyebrella. In a 12 player server 9 people could just run around with eyebrellas, 1 person could just use ice chester, and then a whopping 2 people would have to actually do something else.

But even with infinite eyebrellas available, in my experience most people are either disconnected or in the caves during the summer, so even in a 12 player server I doubt there would be any contention over eyebrellas unless you were just completely ignoring the existence of Deerclops until it was too late to acquire them. 

Honestly I seldom see more than two people who are able to optimize anything on a 12 person open server, there are a lot of people wandering around lost and desperately hoping for guidance, about 25% who are content running a farm and basically acting like a housekeeper, a handful of about 33% of people who kinda understand the progression and are labbing out some kind of chokepoint in the progression they haven't beaten yet (Often crab king,) and like 7% of people who actually engage in any sort of quick and efficient progression.

If I go down and just casually club ancient guardian to death people tend to be astonished and super thankful if I throw a thulecite club at them. I seriously doubt many worlds see more than one eyebrella, the bulk of them probably got made recently with the WX rework just due to the influx of good players actually remembering to play wx and needing water protection.

Still I want to toy with hostile flares a bit more when I actively start playing more again just because there seems to be a remarkable number of people who haven't experimented with the houndius shootius. I know its kinda irrelevant but its an iconic item I want to build for newbies because otherwise its an item people pick up in terraria and forget where its from completely.

[Cheggf]

14 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

Honestly I seldom see more than two people who are able to optimize anything on a 12 person open server, there are a lot of people wandering around lost and desperately hoping for guidance, about 25% who are content running a farm and basically acting like a housekeeper, a handful of about 33% of people who kinda understand the progression and are labbing out some kind of chokepoint in the progression they haven't beaten yet (Often crab king,) and like 7% of people who actually engage in any sort of quick and efficient progression.

If I go down and just casually club ancient guardian to death people tend to be astonished and super thankful if I throw a thulecite club at them. I seriously doubt many worlds see more than one eyebrella, the bulk of them probably got made recently with the WX rework just due to the influx of good players actually remembering to play wx and needing water protection.

Still I want to toy with hostile flares a bit more when I actively start playing more again just because there seems to be a remarkable number of people who haven't experimented with the houndius shootius. I know its kinda irrelevant but its an iconic item I want to build for newbies because otherwise its an item people pick up in terraria and forget where its from completely.

Yeah most people have no idea how to play and are probably going to disconnect before summer even appears, but it's not an issue with summer. The game is giving you way more than enough eyebrellas, and way more than enough alternative ways to survive summer. If people aren't, it's not the game's fault that the entire server is unanimously not preparing for the upcoming seasons. Whether they are ignorant of how to prepare, or they are just choosing not to, ample option for them to do so is there.

[Walrusst]

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Yeah most people have no idea how to play and are probably going to disconnect before summer even appears, but it's not an issue with summer. The game is giving you way more than enough eyebrellas, and way more than enough alternative ways to survive summer. If people aren't, it's not the game's fault that the entire server is unanimously not preparing for the upcoming seasons. Whether they are ignorant of how to prepare, or they are just choosing not to, ample option for them to do so is there.

I mean most of them use thermal stones, fridges, and endothermic fires in my experience, or someone good lures them into the caves. Siesta lean to's kinda work sometimes for them. The starter kit even gives them barely enough stuff to live to get rescued if they run in circles under a tree if the late join starter bonuses are involved.

A lot of the new and clueless players are able to enjoy the game if you are willing to go halfway to match their pace, and make sure to not completely bulldoze the postern area so new joins are left completely without an option to start. Not like, become a newbie yourself, but if you act like players who aren't elite are able to have fun once they realize what the first puzzle pieces are to actually get going, they'll try and start labbing out the game.

Edited Sunday at 12:18 AM by Walrusst

[DinsdaleP]

Let me tell you all a secret about how to get around this, or at least make the nerf's effect minimal: bundling wraps.

You take four or five thermal stones, throw them in a fridge, now you've got all your thermals cooled to 0°C. Take them out, water them down to -20°C (which will take 20+ splashes now), keep one, bundle the rest up (with rope if you went for only four), now you've got over a day of overheating protection for each thermal stone... if you play your cards right, you're only gonna have to do this about two times, three at worst, since there's no overheating in the first and last days of summer.

But even as a serial summer starter (because it's way more fun when the world is actively trying to kill you), while I do feel the nerf, it feels justified (watering cans made everything way too easy) and simple to play around. Sprint to mosaic, dig up graves, chances are you'll find a gear, so you can just build a fridge, cool your thermal, then hammer said fridge. When the thermal starts getting warm, go to your nearest cave entrance, throw down another fridge and explore until the thermal stone cools, then hammer said fridge once again - it all costs one whole gold nugget. If you don't find a gear, just go for Endothermic Fires for the same effect, you'll be spending most of your time underground rushing the ruins anyway.

[Mike23Ua]

Honestly the change was probably made because Klei added a brand new and extremely massive biome into the game that is always hot. It would defeat the entire purpose of this biome even existing if watering thermal stones was a super easy way to stay cooled down. With that said, I mostly rely on petrified trees to gather Nitre to build some nice Endothermic fires to keep my thermal cooled down.

But more likely then not, Klei is hoping players will use more late game items like the Ice Crystalizer or whatever it’s called, because this Heated Biome is Part ONE of a Two Part Shadow Arc Finale… and the biome is honestly just way way too big for Klei to NOT have more planned to do with it.

(Furmarole biome is the size of 4 or 5 normal biomes combined.)

[Walrusst]

I mean its the gold biome not far removed from the gears biome, you can basically rebuild your fridge an infinite number of times down there.

Still, I'd love more content down there given how much of a pain it is to actually find that place, but I say this as someone who has 90% played characters that are far outside my  norm lately so I expect once I stop doing wx's family detour it will start being easier to find it quickly without the 15 day circuit grind.

Edited Sunday at 01:07 AM by Walrusst

[Tranoze]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

biome even existing if watering thermal stones was a super easy way to stay cooled down.

I think thermal stone watering can was more like a clutch than a super easy way to stay cooled down. Imagine they remove water bucket clutch in Minecraft since it was "super easy way" to avoid fall damage there.

[RubLog6]

9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

No there isn't. There was already more than enough room to support an infinite amount of players through the summer with the summer frest (better eyebrella), cooling foods, wetness application, Chester, endothermic fires, being in the caves, etc. Even without a single eyebrella you could easily have 100+ people go through the entire summer without a single death from overheating - you'd sooner have people dying of malnourishment than a lack of options for dealing with the heat.

But even with all of that, for some reason, they decided that there shouldn't be limited eyebrellas to go around. They added the hostile flare so that in the first winter instead of getting 1 eyebrella, you can get up to 9 eyebrellas in the first winter. This is more eyebrellas than the server size limits of both 6 and 8, only on a 12 player server would even a single person have to actually think about doing anything except for using the eyebrella. In a 12 player server 9 people could just run around with eyebrellas, 1 person could just use ice chester, and then a whopping 2 people would have to actually do something else.

But even with infinite eyebrellas available, in my experience most people are either disconnected or in the caves during the summer, so even in a 12 player server I doubt there would be any contention over eyebrellas unless you were just completely ignoring the existence of Deerclops until it was too late to acquire them. 

Why you lying?

U get glommy on day 11. Winter ends day 35. Glommy poops 2-4 days, let's take it as three each day

Average number of goops = (35-11)/3= 8

Okay 8 goops, i'll give it to you and round it up to 9 hostile flares acquired. I dont know who is killing 9 deerclopses in winter. Will you do this? I am surely not going out of MY way to do this, perhaps you're an incredibly nice and patient person, but yea you could do with a bunch of friends to make it easier. That's not the main thing, the probability of getting 9 deerclops from all 9 hostile flares is very unlikley to happen. Yes you could kill glommer. 60 percent chance to spawn clops per flare... not writing the equation here, did the math. This equates to 15 hostile flares required on average. 

Please don't say a summer frest is an eyebrella (do i really need to explain why?) I unironically like body slot items though.

I'll agree with your last bit. It seems like people love to disconnect in spring and summer and come back in autumn... I wonder why.

 

5 hours ago, DinsdaleP said:

Let me tell you all a secret about how to get around this, or at least make the nerf's effect minimal: bundling wraps.

 

I have to kill a raid boss to stay cool? Didn't you make two posts on 2 different platforms 5 days ago about how you were having a hard time with wx-78 and asking tips for willow (easy mode character, up there with wiggy, whom you also seemed to enjoy). I'm not ridiculing you, just have a little bit of sympathy.

5 hours ago, DinsdaleP said:

But even as a serial summer starter (because it's way more fun when the world is actively trying to kill you), while I do feel the nerf, it feels justified (watering cans made everything way too easy) and simple to play around. Sprint to mosaic, dig up graves, chances are you'll find a gear, so you can just build a fridge, cool your thermal, then hammer said fridge. When the thermal starts getting warm, go to your nearest cave entrance, throw down another fridge and explore until the thermal stone cools, then hammer said fridge once again - it all costs one whole gold nugget. If you don't find a gear, just go for Endothermic Fires for the same effect, you'll be spending most of your time underground rushing the ruins anyway.

Do this again but c_skip(5), you do not overheat the first day of summer. Set boulders to less. No going to mosaic, there is no gold there. Assume it's already been mined by other people. Graves are not allowed either, they've already been dug. Unsure if this command will work with world temperature, so instead, join a server in the middle of summer. Not early summer. No one is giving you gears on day 1 at spawn. Btw ruins is raided and shadow rift is on. Cave rain is unlikely, but hey, it can happen.

Everyone who has responded, I appreciate the knockback, it makes me reconsider if I'm being a whiny brat about this, I don't think we should go on autopilot blindly agree with everything that's put out, I like that the forums are here for us to rave. Heck I love reading comments when other people argue 🍿 + points if Mike is involved. I usually don't berate about something; maybe I'm just venting my frustrations. However I feel as though you:

A) consistently fail to thoroughly consider my arguments aka read

B) fail to see that the issue i'm bringing up is not the difficulty of surviving summer and hence, overheating.

 

Edited Sunday at 06:16 AM by RubLog6

[Cheggf]

12 minutes ago, RubLog6 said:

Why you lying?

U get glommy on day 11. Winter ends day 35. Glommy poops 2-4 days, let's take it as three each day

Average number of goops = (35-11)/3= 8

Okay 8 goops, i'll give it to you and round it up to 9 hostile flares acquired.

Accusing me of lying and then posting math proving I'm right (even ignoring the 2 you can get from killing Glommer and the 1 you get from Deerclops' natural spawning) is an interesting comment. 

[RubLog6]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Accusing me of lying and then posting math proving I'm right (even ignoring the 2 you can get from killing Glommer and the 1 you get from Deerclops' natural spawning) is an interesting comment. 

This scenario is highly highly highly highly highly highly optimised in terms of acquiring the goops. It is unlikely to happen, almost impossible. I've never experienced or accumulated >13.33333333333333333 goops by day 35. (Average flares required for 8 clopses, 8/0.6).

For your sake, I'll also have to assume glommer was

1) Successfully retrieved on day 11,

2) Kept alive till day 31 killed in time

3) 0 Goops were eaten

The flare discussion and hence, deerclops kill isn't even the main issue here. 

You cannot guarantee (I had to do the math for you and you are still a slave to rng for a clothing item you do not need) glommer will drop the required amount, including the 2 kills on day 21 and 35 (if you havent reached it). Adding in the natural deerclops means you must only start firing flares after day 30*. Will you be also be able to hit 8 clopses by spring? 

I want to add, I did the math, not to show that you are right but i'm giving you a lot of leeway, yet you refuse to provide even an ounce of grace in any reply. And instead always turn to nitpick one detail in a whole argument to come across as having the higher ground.

Edited Sunday at 07:41 AM by RubLog6

[Tranoze]

37 minutes ago, RubLog6 said:

 Adding in the natural deerclops means you must only start firing flares after day 30*. 

deer will spawn on day 30 even if you flare before i think.

37 minutes ago, RubLog6 said:

You cannot guarantee

He didnt say guarantee, he said 

10 hours ago, Cheggf said:

can get up to 9 eyebrellas

That mean it is possible, not guarantee.

Plus you can get more goops if wicker decide to read full moon every night and you stay there to kill gloomer, or speed runner summon moonstorm early.
 

Edited Sunday at 07:49 AM by Tranoze

[Cruvimaster]

In the summer, I prefer using desert goggles because they delay overheating, provide a slight sanity boost (+3.3/min), and negate the slowing effect of the sandstorm. Plus, they are an item that can easily be crafted for everyone in a multiplayer world during the first few days of summer.

[mima_]

18 hours ago, RubLog6 said:

mom comes down aggro on you,

no the mom only agro u if u near her. if u chase the kid u will be safe just make the sign in between of wall so u cant pass thro, or with statue really like 3 tile away from the nest u will be able to make the baby stuck and literally free hit it 
 

[WendyHater9000]

Glad I’ve never get used to use this exploit.

Mooncaller gang for the win!

[Walrusst]

8 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

In the summer, I prefer using desert goggles because they delay overheating, provide a slight sanity boost (+3.3/min), and negate the slowing effect of the sandstorm. Plus, they are an item that can easily be crafted for everyone in a multiplayer world during the first few days of summer.

When everyone was basing near the oasis I remember desert goggles were like a plague.

[DVGMedia]

7 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

When everyone was basing near the oasis I remember desert goggles were like a plague.

they used to not have weather protection or sanity gain. Not sure when they added that. 

Edited Sunday at 06:28 PM by DVGMedia