The upcoming official Gesture Wheel has BIG issues

[Echsrick]

why is wurt greener on the icons?

[Hollow soul 3]

On 5/28/2025 at 11:49 PM, Echsrick said:

why is wurt greener on the icons?

Too much seaweed

[JesseB_Klei]

On 5/24/2025 at 6:05 PM, ADM said:

Then again they don't have to put the character under the frame : ) or much more solutions can be explored like cropping models or other.

Also to add to this, not using image would have a lot more utility, we could have the emote pre-play on the buttons or such.

And I really, REALLY, sincerely hope this won't be made in a hostile fashion which will forbid us from easily making new emotes or such because I was actually hoping to make a few more, but the way it's presented atm is near impossible and has too many constrains when we account for mod characters. I really just hope this will be mod friendly and I sure bet we'll make cool things out of that.

With time this is desired to be setup with a skins puppet UI anim and potentially playing the animation when hovering over the emote. This first pass is a direct port from the consoles to get controllers more in sync between the platforms and improvements can be made safely in the future with the UI and how it feels.

On 5/24/2025 at 11:20 PM, Digi_056 said:

This will suck as it is, there is a large amount of mods that will break, including my own. A generic placeholder should be made at the very least. Optimally, placeholders could be generated automatically when the image is not present. I think this would save everyone a great deal of pain.

For the next hotfix this is what will be as a fallback generic character as a placeholder for the time being.

[-Variant]

13 minutes ago, JesseB_Klei said:

With time this is desired to be setup with a skins puppet UI anim and potentially playing the animation when hovering over the emote. This first pass is a direct port from the consoles to get controllers more in sync between the platforms and improvements can be made safely in the future with the UI and how it feels.

On 5/24/2025 at 10:20 PM, Digi_056 said:

This seems like the best case scenario, it'd go miles for skin support and modded characters as well.

15 minutes ago, JesseB_Klei said:

For the next hotfix this is what will be as a fallback generic character as a placeholder for the time being.

Wouldn't using the puppets exclude the need for any icons at all? Or is it being done so the system in place doesn't need to be changed much currently?

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, Wraif said:

If you're asking why they aren't implementing the puppet method for the next hotfix, my guess is that it's too mechanically complex to be done by then; even if it isn't, they have more than just the gesture wheel to worry about working on.

how complex can it be when its literally been done by a workshop mod 10 years ago and would save them the bother of sorting out or even adding in placeholder art.

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

how complex can it be when its literally been done by a workshop mod 10 years ago and would save them the bother of sorting out or even adding in placeholder art.

Because mainline game code cannot be implemented in the same way that workshop mods are.

They need to figure out where to place the code, need to think about how it interacts with other pieces of code, internally test the code, make sure that the way it is written is the most efficient to not cause a burden on player machines that are running it (especially relevant when considering the Switch is one of those machines)... Stuff like that. It's never as simple as copy pasting the code from a modder.

In fact, I'm not even sure if they're legally allowed to copy paste the modder's code, btw. They might need to write a different code on their own to avoid potential lawsuits from stealing the entire code that someone else made (I'm not a lawyer though, so I'm not sure if this is true or not).

[xhyom]

Gesture and Geometric were made by ONE person, haven't been updated in years, and still work perfectly to this day, so it's definitely not rocket science, and they're not amateurs, right? It's hard to believe that there's this much difficulty for a full team of professionals working on their own game to REPRODUCE something that's been around for years, made by a fan.

[AliceShiki]

17 minutes ago, xhyom said:

Gesture and Geometric were made by ONE person, haven't been updated in years, and still work perfectly to this day, so it's definitely not rocket science, and they're not amateurs, right? It's hard to believe that there's this much difficulty for a full team of professionals working on their own game to REPRODUCE something that's been around for years, made by a fan.

It's not rocket science, but it's not simple either, that's all I'm saying.

Klei obviously hasn't been working for 10 years on Geometric Placement or Gesture Wheel, it was a recent decision to decide to implement them... But the full team isn't focused on just those 2 features, it's focused on all sorts of things that need to work together and not break, so saying they having a full team is disingenuous.

And like... I haven't really put in any work on working with mods on DST (but I did do some mods for Binding of Isaac in the past, which is also modded in Lua, even if the main game of Isaac is actually coded in C), so an experienced DST modder can correct me if I'm wrong, but mods can put a bigger strain on the machine of the user, and the modder doesn't really need to care about that, that's the user's problem.

Similarly, a mod can stop functioning properly depending on how many mods the user has and what is the loading order of those mods... Which again, is not the modder's problem, it's the user's problem... At most, I have seen some modders start their mod name with "!!" to put them on the top of the modding queue to avoid issues with loading order, but that's about all I have seen that modders could do about this issue.

And well... Devs can't behave in this same way. They need to care about the strain on the machine, they need to make sure the controls are responsive, they need to make sure their program won't cause issues to existing mods and won't cause any unwanted interference, and they need to make sure their entire code is well-rounded and functions properly without causing any strange crashes and bugs. Also, they need to add some level of future-proofing in their code, so that they can add more features that they may be planning later on without actually causing issues that break their game apart and force them to either write some seriously janky unoptimized code to make it work, or be forced to rewrite large chunks of code to make the game still function with the new feature... Worries that modders really don't have at all.

When I was modding Isaac, sometimes someone reported a bug that I couldn't replicate, so I just told the person... "Well, I dunno what's causing it, it's working on my end." Or worse... Sometimes I experienced a bug and I couldn't figure out what caused it, so I gave up and just wrote a notice on the mod's page that I sometimes experienced a certain bug, and at most listed out a workaround for it... Devs can't do that. They need to take their work with much more seriousness than a modder does.

And again, it's not Rocket Science indeed, but it's also complex and demands time. Devs simply work on different standards than modders do.

Also... You don't know how long it took for the modders to make the code and UI for stuff like Geometric Placement and Gesture Wheel. Devs have deadlines to meet, modders do not, so this also affects development.

[xhyom]

1 hour ago, AliceShiki said:

...

Klei obviously hasn't been working for 10 years on Geometric Placement or Gesture Wheel

...

Not even the creator of the mod that released this and others, less than a year after the original Don't Starve was released, worked on it for 10 years. And they did it while they were inventing the wheel, alone. If Klei copies something that have already been made, makes mistakes and creates problems that already had a solution 15 years ago, it's kind of pathetic, yes.

If it was a programming problem sure, they didn't make the most optimal code ever whatever they'll fix it anyway, but as the topic makes clear its fundamentally wrong, the foundation started wrong and created problems that didn't exist, not that the coding is wacky. The topic is definitely not about a bug, a crash or performance problems like you try to put as the problem, but rather that Klei took something that was already done and managed to make it worse, twice, and as I said, these are mods that are almost abandoned and haven't broken despite all of Klei's updates, which possibly don't take these two mods into consideration before putting a line of code in. So saying that Klei took a bad path because they care a lot about performance and they take a lot of care before making any changes to the code, while a mod (that works despite everything) wouldn't worry about that, unlike the official (non-functional) one, is simply ignoring the whole problem and talking about something else.

Edited June 3, 2025 by xhyom

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, xhyom said:

It's not that the program isn't working as expected, they've programmed something else entirely and it is working perfectly the way they designed it, and that's the problem. But you can ignore that, as my insight is not as sacrificial

OMG that's not that complicated at all. It's just half of the technical work completed.

They need to merge the existing Gesture Wheel on the console platform into the base game first, and then they can start the development of the Gesture Wheel function applicable to PC/all platforms. The unimplemented Gesture Wheel in the game now is not "Klei is trying to reproduce that work and then messing up". It is just a prerequisite for that work. 

Edited June 3, 2025 by Cassielu

[xhyom]

14 hours ago, Cassielu said:

That actually has nothing to do with who needs to consider more issues between the official developers and the modder.

That's what I'm saying tho, it's not who makes the best code or whatever, but Klei went with a different route with how emote icons works and it's troublesome, there's nothing buggy or not working as intended, it's working but the way it works will break things, and it didn't need to happen because they already knew what worked, because it already existed, stable and functional. They just went a weird route. And now they have to work even more probably to circumvent that problem, because they didn't do the same thing a mod had already done. like what do you mean not that complicated, I'm literally simplifying it, the other guys are the ones saying as if it was too complex for Klei to do it, that there's different standards between modders and devs and things that does not have anything to do with Klei not using puppets

 

Edited June 3, 2025 by xhyom

[ADM]

Can y'all calm down ?

[RoughCactus69]

11 hours ago, milsonmeow said:

I mean, didn't the current AG fight was 'inspired' by the Uncompromising Mode mod??? If they can do that with 'relative ease' then it shouldn't have been a problem with this supposed gesture wheel too.

I don't think the gesture wheel should be too difficult. It already exists and it's already implemented on consoles. All they gotta do is port it over and add mouse support.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

9 hours ago, xhyom said:

Buddy going after me in 3 different topics, talking about my posts in that enlightened tone of his and posing as a monk while adding absolutely nothing to the conversation other than pretending to be more civilized lol

Cool your jets bucko. At the end of the day, it's not that deep. 

 

Klei is making very nice needed QoL updates, and what they have now isn't even final. Feel free to complain once full release drops.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus 

[xhyom]

1 hour ago, RoughCactus69 said:

I don't think the gesture wheel should be too difficult. It already exists and it's already implemented on consoles. All they gotta do is port it over and add mouse support.

Sincerely,Cactus

Cool your jets bucko. At the end of the day, it's not that deep. 

Klei is making very nice needed QoL updates, and what they have now isn't even final. Feel free to complain once full release drops.

Sincerely,Cactus 

I don't understand your point, like you kind of said the same thing as me, and he — do you agree with us but disagree? But you agree with the guy that you disagree, in terms of things being doable or not, just for the sake of it? I repeat, this performance of civility and toxic positivity adds absolutely nothing to a discussion, we are not in an email.

[AliceShiki]

15 hours ago, xhyom said:

Not even the creator of the mod that released this and others, less than a year after the original Don't Starve was released, worked on it for 10 years. And they did it while they were inventing the wheel, alone. If Klei copies something that have already been made, makes mistakes and creates problems that already had a solution 15 years ago, it's kind of pathetic, yes.

If it was a programming problem sure, they didn't make the most optimal code ever whatever they'll fix it anyway, but as the topic makes clear its fundamentally wrong, the foundation started wrong and created problems that didn't exist, not that the coding is wacky. The topic is definitely not about a bug, a crash or performance problems like you try to put as the problem, but rather that Klei took something that was already done and managed to make it worse, twice, and as I said, these are mods that are almost abandoned and haven't broken despite all of Klei's updates, which possibly don't take these two mods into consideration before putting a line of code in. So saying that Klei took a bad path because they care a lot about performance and they take a lot of care before making any changes to the code, while a mod (that works despite everything) wouldn't worry about that, unlike the official (non-functional) one, is simply ignoring the whole problem and talking about something else.

15 hours ago, xhyom said:

They are basically saying, look: they have to make very professional code, different from the sloppy code made by modders that has no standard (although it works) so that's why it's worse in its essence because: *insert things that are not related to the problem and say that programming is difficult* (I'm ignoring that the problem is not about programming and codes but about how they developed the thing itself, I'm very smart). You can change the code for this issue as much as you want, since it's not about performance, bugs, crashes, formatting, where to put the code, but rather that it's fundamentally wrong. It's not that the program isn't working as expected, they've programmed something else entirely and it is working perfectly the way they designed it, and that's the problem. But you can ignore that, as my insight is not as sacrificial

Uhn... Did you not read the post made by Klei's devs on this very thread?

That's all I have to say in response to you. I think you should read the dev posts in this very thread. You seem to be complaining about a non-issue.

12 hours ago, ADM said:

Can y'all calm down ?

For what it's worth, I think there is only one person in this thread that isn't very calm... >.>

[xhyom]

38 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Uhn... Did you not read the post made by Klei's devs on this very thread?

That's all I have to say in response to you. I think you should read the dev posts in this very thread. You seem to be complaining about a non-issue.

For what it's worth, I think there is only one person in this thread that isn't very calm... >.>

I said that it is certainly not that difficult for Klei, a professional team, to use the same method applied in the mod, which is the suggestion of the topic and you decided to lecture me about how mods work, how they need to have quality standards as if the mod doesn't, how programming, deadlines, schedules work, which has absolutely nothing to do with Klei deciding not to use the same METHOD of the mod. The other guy suggested that doing the same thing the mod did would be TOO COMPLEX for Klei to do, like seriously? Are you guys being serious?

And I have no idea what you two hope (talking about the guy that disappeared, not adm btw) to gain from this nonsense of trying to portray me as the stressed and out of control person who won't give in to you, the self-proclaimed voice of reason, like, the only thing you did was tell me that things are complicated, as if I said the opposite, and as if that were very deep and meant a lot.

Edited June 3, 2025 by xhyom

[RoughCactus69]

3 hours ago, xhyom said:

I don't understand your point, like you kind of said the same thing as me, and he — do you agree with us but disagree? But you agree with the guy that you disagree, in terms of things being doable or not, just for the sake of it? I repeat, this performance of civility and toxic positivity adds absolutely nothing to a discussion, we are not in an email.

I don't think it would be too hard to implement, but I'm not a developer. I can also see how it might take some time to polish it out.

 

Two things can be true at once.

Sincerely,

Cactus

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, xhyom said:

I said that it is certainly not that difficult for Klei, a professional team, to use the same method applied in the mod, which is the suggestion of the topic and you decided to lecture me about how mods work, how they need to have quality standards as if the mod doesn't, how programming, deadlines, schedules work, which has absolutely nothing to do with Klei deciding not to use the same METHOD of the mod. The other guy suggested that doing the same thing the mod did would be TOO COMPLEX for Klei to do, like seriously? Are you guys being serious?

And I have no idea what you two hope (talking about the guy that disappeared, not adm btw) to gain from this nonsense of trying to portray me as the stressed and out of control person who won't give in to you, the self-proclaimed voice of reason, like, the only thing you did was tell me that things are complicated, as if I said the opposite, and as if that were very deep and meant a lot.

You asked how complex could it be when a mod has already done it.

I explained to you that mainline code has different needs than mods, so they have to do things differently.

You didn't seem to be convinced, so I elaborated a bit more on the specifics... You still seemed to not be convinced, and then started saying some weird stuff that made it seem like you hadn't even read the dev comments on this thread explaining that the issue brought up was already logged and they are currently planning on doing things in a way that doesn't break mods.

So I told you to read the dev comments. That's all that happened.

I can't convince you that game development functions in a fundamentally different way than mod development does, but that's just the reality of things.

[xhyom]

Quote

 

Notes for Modders

• The emote wheel now has a default fallback that will be used as a texture for the time being. In the future we want to do a pass on it to change it from the console version of using textures to a full skins puppet animation rig setup so even modded characters will work without tuning.

 

Things were so fundamentally different that they came to the same conclusion, I'm shocked

Edited June 6, 2025 by xhyom

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, xhyom said:

Things were so fundamentally different that they came to the same conclusion, I'm shocked

Correct. JesseB_Klei's latest post in this very thread already said that this was the plan, hence why I asked you earlier if you had actually read their posts in this very thread.

You asked about complexity, I answered about complexity. I never said anything about different outcomes being the goal, because they weren't.

Edited June 6, 2025 by AliceShiki