Woodie can no longer use tree army on FW

[Well-met]

in my opinion bone cage is the root of misery most people experience with FW. Relax the bonecage and suddenly people probably won't complain about the other factors of the fight anymore.

[aidankocherhans]

7 hours ago, astareus said:

I don't get. I don't understand this topic. So many misleading arguments. It's actually very easy to understand, and if you don't, you need to change the way you think.

If you don't like boss fights, then you're not the audience for it. Don't try to change what people enjoy already.
If you feel like you wanna progress through the game while not facing bosses head-on, there are ways in-game where you can do that.
If you can't use gunpowder on planar enemies, just use brightshade bombs.
Don"t wanna learn fuelweaver fight, use indirect in-game mechanics.

If you have problem with dfly larvae, just build the stone wall go ahead, no one is gonna cancel you for doing that.
And if you wanna use health adjust mods, then go ahead too, I won't shame you for it.

But to be so incredibly selfish to want to change the entire game's uncompromising mission of being hard and unfair in it's nature, to try to make it easier to accommodate you wanting rewards and resources at a low cost/maintenance is not to be expected from someone who says they love the game, yet they neglect the audience.

If you think the healing on fuelweaver is unfair, you're right, it is, and that's what makes it interesting for me, so don't try and take that from me for your own reasons.

If you're tired of fighting antlion every summer, trust me, it's way more annoying having to maintain her hunger level. Your own ideas of maintaining bosses will hardly make the developers of the game go "easy" on you, rather it'll be the opposite. You can already kill all spider in the surface, give their all 100 to 200 monster meat to a bird and spam eggs, burn an entire forest and mine nitre for 1 season to COMPLETELY negate the fighting action from 93% of bosses. If that's not enough for you, then please step out of the train or else you'll get dragged with it.

Treeguards were an indirect in-game mechanic to fight fuelweaver with. Do you not understand why people are opposed to its removal?

[Swiyss]

13 hours ago, Cheggf said:

anything is unfair it's that you can dodge his attacks while he can't dodge yours, and you can stop his healing while he can't stop yours. 

Literally has a shield that stop my attacks. Literally uses bone cage to stop me from stopping the healing.

Of course the player has to be the last one able to defeat it. It's not like they made an impossible boss only defeatable if you have 6 players with you.

13 hours ago, Well-met said:

in my opinion bone cage is the root of misery most people experience with FW. Relax the bonecage and suddenly people probably won't complain about the other factors of the fight anymore.

Yet it is so simple to just use a lazy explorer. And with some more practice, you can cancel his bone cage attack by simply walking out of the range.

8 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

Treeguards were an indirect in-game mechanic to fight fuelweaver with. Do you not understand why people are opposed to its removal?

I don't think you get it. It's not intentional to remove the ability to place trees in there. It was clearly stated here that this is just a side effect to removing regrowth on relocated ancient turf.

[Parusoid]

On 3/23/2025 at 4:45 AM, DegenerateFurry said:

I swear, if they touch the moongleams method next, I will personally find every fossil in the Constant and burn them in a Dragonfly furnace out of spite.

Moongleams method? Care to elaborate? 
 

[Kwaik]

Let's ask the real questions here 

 

What's the easiest, most efficient FW cheese left in the game at this point? 

 

[Well-met]

10 hours ago, astareus said:

Yet it is so simple to just use a lazy explorer. And with some more practice, you can cancel his bone cage attack by simply walking out of the range.

it is not simple as the charges are very limited and teleporting makes you insane = beaks which snowball into a no fun mess.

the dodge is unreliable and most characters can't afford the time or distance it needs to pull off, not to mention the boss just spams it anyway.

 

[DegenerateFurry]

5 hours ago, Parusoid said:

Moongleams method? Care to elaborate? 
 

You basically get a ton of moongleams, bundle 'em up, put on something shock-resistant, and open the bundle as Fuelweaver enters his BS phase, and they kill all his BS while you lead them around so you don't have to put up with any of it.

[Mike23Ua]

39 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You basically get a ton of moongleams, bundle 'em up, put on something shock-resistant, and open the bundle as Fuelweaver enters his BS phase, and they kill all his BS while you lead them around so you don't have to put up with any of it.

The crazy concepts players come up with to fight bosses never ceases to amaze me, but at the exact same time Klei seems to want to eradicate all those “illegitimate” ways of fighting a boss from the game, and if they’re going to actually go that route: then they should at this point just add “item checks” to being allowed to enter a boss fight scenario 

(kinda like how Pig King refuses to start the Champion Pig Mini Game when you try to give him a Championship Belt and the Battle Area isn’t cleared)

Ive played RogueLites that let the player go Ham with crazy guns and abilities, but when it came to “balancing the boss fights” certain abilities or weapons would disappear from your arsenal during the fight.

This allows the developers to design, edit or rework the boss fight around the few methods they intend for you to be allowed to use, rather than having to try to re-adjust that boss per new character, weapon, skill etc they decide to add to the game.

I can only imagine how Woodie mains are feeling right now, to be given new toys in his skill tree and then have those toys rendered unusable later.

At this point: Just Klei really should just “item check” they’re boss fights, so we the players know what’s intended, and what’s not.

[Hollow soul 3]

8 hours ago, Kwaik said:

Let's ask the real questions here 

 

What's the easiest, most efficient FW cheese left in the game at this point? 

 

Just saw this

 

[DegenerateFurry]

31 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Just saw this

 

This honestly seems less efficient than just getting a bunch of moongleams.

[Swiyss]

6 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

This honestly seems less efficient than just getting a bunch of moongleams.

if you're getting moongleams, better to use the brightshade staff at this point.

[Parusoid]

12 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You basically get a ton of moongleams, bundle 'em up, put on something shock-resistant, and open the bundle as Fuelweaver enters his BS phase, and they kill all his BS while you lead them around so you don't have to put up with any of it.

Does this person use a mod that removes the shadow hands or moongleams kill them as well?

[Cheggf]

6 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

Does this person use a mod that removes the shadow hands or moongleams kill them as well?

The moongleams kill the shadow hands. You can see it happen at 1:56.

[Hollow soul 3]

9 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

This honestly seems less efficient than just getting a bunch of moongleams.

Yeah, the cheeses are less practical than just using the weather pain. 

[Parusoid]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

You can see it happen at 1:56.

Where exactly, i cant see

[Primalflower]

On 3/27/2025 at 2:01 PM, Well-met said:

in my opinion bone cage is the root of misery most people experience with FW. Relax the bonecage and suddenly people probably won't complain about the other factors of the fight anymore.

This is so true its unreal. There are things you can do to fight against the bone cage with varying levels of intendedness, but the fact of the matter is that the player feels helpless and unactionable when the bone cage is enacted upon them, it *feels* like you're put in a situation where you can't respond, even if you technically can. it just *feels* unfair, even if there is something you can do. and it makes everything around it feel so much worse than it might otherwise feel

[Hollow soul 3]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

This is so true its unreal. There are things you can do to fight against the bone cage with varying levels of intendedness, but the fact of the matter is that the player feels helpless and unactionable when the bone cage is enacted upon them, it *feels* like you're put in a situation where you can't respond, even if you technically can. it just *feels* unfair, even if there is something you can do. and it makes everything around it feel so much worse than it might otherwise feel

 there's an item that stops that.

[DegenerateFurry]

9 hours ago, astareus said:

if you're getting moongleams, better to use the brightshade staff at this point.

Not quite. Killing CC is its own big thing that's harder than just farming a moonstorm, and if you kill CC before Fuelweaver and then wait for rifts, you're then not able to use Fuelweaver's bone helm against CC, which is the whole reason you'd even want to kill him before CC in the first place.

Also, the question was "what's the easiest, most efficient cheese". The Brightshade Staff is by far not the easiest or most efficient. Making a single thulecite bug net and playing Pokémon on some Moongleams (gotta catch 'em all!) is way easier and more resource-efficient.

[Primalflower]

10 hours ago, astareus said:

if you're getting moongleams, better to use the brightshade staff at this point.

you can get moongleams without turning on surface rifts. Moongleams just spawn from moonstorms, which only require you to visit archives/kill crab king to assemble the altars. so it's more like a question of just if you're willing to fight crab king without caves rift equipment, which I would argue is a far smaller and more reasonable hill to climb for most characters

[Cheggf]

9 hours ago, Parusoid said:

Where exactly, i cant see

If you watch from 1:53 you can see that there's a hand right next to a morsel which disappears from an electricity effect at 1:56. At 2:02 the bottom left hand that's adjacent to the morsel one gets killed by the following swarm. At 2:05 the hand next to the chest gets killed by the swarm, which was the final hand so they start attacking AFW. They're kiting the swarm of moongleams into all the hands. 

[Dwight34]

On 3/29/2025 at 9:07 PM, Primalflower said:

if you're willing to fight crab king

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 60 gunpowder incoming

On 3/27/2025 at 9:01 PM, Well-met said:

in my opinion bone cage is the root of misery most people experience with FW. Relax the bonecage and suddenly people probably won't complain about the other factors of the fight anymore.

Indeed. It adds another layer of destroying anything you're doing with an undodgeable bs attack, that forces you to swap to a lazy explorer and waste time and lose a ton of sanity thus having to heal even more with sanity food or get attacked by nightmare creatures more. The way FW is designed, this one attack compounds 10 other problems as he was designed to be an overwhelming mess not realistically feasible for solo players. The fact that the part of the community that likes the fight consists literally only of youtubers and speedrunners who both dedicate their entire lives to the game speaks volumes, the top 0.001% of players who genuinely do not have any idea what the game is like to absolutely everyone else, it's like asking for League to be designed only around Challengers games.

I just hope the devs aren't too influenced by this echo chamber filled with so many people who do not represent in any way what a normal player is like, and do not respect them nor care about them, like some 7000 hours Sniper on TF2 who goes on a casual lobby and terrorizes an entire server and acts like an entitled brat saying everyone should get to his skill level to be allowed to have fun by his majesty.

[lowercase skye]

Can we... please stop talking about Fuelweaver in this particular manner? Fuelweaver is not an impossible "BS" fight only enjoyed by my incredibly mean view of what a "toxic" player looks like. Fuelweaver is a boss that is entirely possible and perhaps even becomes easy with enough practice: and the problem is that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of players to put in that amount of brute-force console-command practice in order to learn his every single intricacy. I personally have practiced in test worlds to the point of being able to do the bone cage dodge pretty consistently in phase 1, and am very capable of phase 2 so long as I've got all the necessary items, and I still don't like the fight or the fact that I had to do that in order to make one portion of it feel better, and I would still like the fight to get adjustments to make it feel more reasonable. All that responses like the ones above do is cleanly separate the argument into "people who are good at the fight (but like, derogatory)" and "normal people (group which only contains people of my particular playstyle and skill level)", and I don't think that is productive or useful at all. The argument should instead be between "people who find the fight fun" and "people who don't find the fight fun", because the goal to reach in my opinion is for the fight to be made fun for people who don't like it, while retaining that existing fun for people who already like it. For example an indicator whenever the Fuelweaver has his bone cage ready, and a visible range, would allow you to dodge it far easier, making that unintended interaction into something official that can be used to make the bone cage far less overwhelming, easing one of the biggest problems with the boss and making it easier for us to interact with this mechanic that a lot of people consider a great and exhilarating part of the fight.

I'd just really really like it if this could be treated as what it is: a subjectively enjoyable boss fight that a lot of people do or don't like for x or y reason. All that separating it into "the normal people" vs "the sweaty entitled tryhard toxic elitists" is make it harder for people like myself to engage, because my dislike for Fuelweaver is far outweighed by the fact that I don't want to implicitly agree with that perception of the situation.

[Swiyss]

On 3/29/2025 at 4:42 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

which is the whole reason you'd even want to kill him before CC in the first place.

I rather prefer the night armor and thulecite suit, these are way cheaper to acquire, require less of a hassle, and will sustain you throughout all mistakes you make while fighting the champion.

But also, on another note, this fight is not really a complicated and complex one. If I were to put my finger on it, I would even say that killing the celestial champion is easier than killing fuelweaver. I mostly defeat the champion with 2 thulecite suits, 10 blue mushroom, a hambat and a lot of time. The head slot is usually be used for winter, spring or summer protection gear.

On 3/29/2025 at 4:42 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

The Brightshade Staff is by far not the easiest or most efficient. Making a single thulecite bug net and playing Pokémon on some Moongleams (gotta catch 'em all!) is way easier and more resource-efficient.

That difference in perspective probably comes from a distinct playstyle. I much prefer to kill the champion first, as he is kind of an easy threat, although a long one if we take into account all the extended period of time completing pearl's tasks and preparing for his calling.

To defeat the ancient fuelweaver, if we compare him with the champion, I see myself not gaining much from it as opposed to the latter. The enlightened crown is probably the best head slot item in the entire game, but the bone armor only prevents damage completely, which is easier left avoidable or tanked anyways. Matter fact, we got fellow speedrunners completing the entire boss category without even taking a hit once. With how impressive that sounds, and with a boss that gives nothing but some scraps in comparison, I cannot argue against it. Not to mention, but brightshades are getting easier and easier to deal with as days goes on and players find new ways to pen these. They turned from this monstrosity of an annoyance into some carnivore passive vine that can better be compared to a critter. The other day I found out that you can freeze these guys permanently if they're in proximity to a deerclops ice crystaleyezer, so any plants in a 10 tile radius are completely safe from a new horde. This made me not necessitate any jumpscare waxing in the future for nearby berry bushes.

But to be completely honest with you, the fuelweaver is better fought as in a group of players. And even if I certainly enjoy cheesing him into a helpless wanderer, I take his fight in a practice to reward ratio approach. The more I play, the better I can kill him, and I believe you should also. It is very rewarding to put your work into the gift of possibility.

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, lowercase skye said:

Can we... please stop talking about Fuelweaver in this particular manner? Fuelweaver is not an impossible "BS" fight only enjoyed by my incredibly mean view of what a "toxic" player looks like. Fuelweaver is a boss that is entirely possible and perhaps even becomes easy with enough practice: and the problem is that it's unreasonable to expect the majority of players to put in that amount of brute-force console-command practice in order to learn his every single intricacy. I personally have practiced in test worlds to the point of being able to do the bone cage dodge pretty consistently in phase 1, and am very capable of phase 2 so long as I've got all the necessary items, and I still don't like the fight or the fact that I had to do that in order to make one portion of it feel better, and I would still like the fight to get adjustments to make it feel more reasonable. All that responses like the ones above do is cleanly separate the argument into "people who are good at the fight (but like, derogatory)" and "normal people (group which only contains people of my particular playstyle and skill level)", and I don't think that is productive or useful at all. The argument should instead be between "people who find the fight fun" and "people who don't find the fight fun", because the goal to reach in my opinion is for the fight to be made fun for people who don't like it, while retaining that existing fun for people who already like it. For example an indicator whenever the Fuelweaver has his bone cage ready, and a visible range, would allow you to dodge it far easier, making that unintended interaction into something official that can be used to make the bone cage far less overwhelming, easing one of the biggest problems with the boss and making it easier for us to interact with this mechanic that a lot of people consider a great and exhilarating part of the fight.

I'd just really really like it if this could be treated as what it is: a subjectively enjoyable boss fight that a lot of people do or don't like for x or y reason. All that separating it into "the normal people" vs "the sweaty entitled tryhard toxic elitists" is make it harder for people like myself to engage, because my dislike for Fuelweaver is far outweighed by the fact that I don't want to implicitly agree with that perception of the situation.

If any of you sit down and actually analyze this fight, you'll quickly find that it is very perceptible the lack of mistakes in it.

The fuelweaver will cage you, so you better carry a lazy explorer or have some blink alternatives ready.

• The requirement of an item found in it's proximity only shows how this fight will be heavy on you. Even though you can kill him without one, if we analyze it from a current use of it as a perspective, we find that he's making you prepare for the encounter with a much stronger impact, because if your lazy explorer breaks, you're as good as dead while inside his arena. Players have been screaming for a fight like this before it's release, so we also have to understand that, even if you don't enjoy his encounter right now, that's intended, and that's what players from years ago were asking at the time. Just because some years has passed, doesn't mean that the fight is now suddenly too harsh or too unforgiving. We're having mental breakdowns over an item requirement, and let me reiterate it here, it is not necessary, on a boss fight that is meant to be the last fight of the game before "hardmore". So instead of being punishing on it, we must face it with a greater attitude as to not change something that, at this point in time, feels hard enough, nostalgic by a mile, interesting to face, and different from any other fight in the game.

The fuelweaver heals and shields himself, so you better change the focus of the fight to the unseen hands and healing crawling claws and skulls.

• By further investigation, you'll definitely agree that this is not a bad idea, nor the implementation of it. Moving the fight to a different area will split your brain into multitasking, and reward you greatly for it. And as you understand the bare bones of it (pun intended), you'll have a bigger attack window between phases which is another bonus for learning this fight. The punishment for this is also very intricate, it will greatly reduce your change of defeating him, however not by him killing you directly, but by him putting a dent into your weapon and armor quantity, which is more of a disrespect than anything. Not only this complete chad shifts you into multitasking, which is something different from antique fights, but he also shifts your view of how to kill a boss. He'll also punish those who try to force win every fight by tanking and healing, which is arguably one of the most discussed bad feature fights have in this game.

The fuelweaver then requires you not be insane for the fight.

• If you're reading this right here, you have to agree with me as well that a fight where the use of it's closest thematic approach is present the most is probably the best configuration proposed in this instance. How can it be changed to be any different from requiring you to be bananas to progress? Not only it gives a use for a very undermined and underused item in the game like the nightmare amulet, but it also means a great quality of life repetition after defeating him with the use of the bone helm. And as a note, the thurible will also greatly help subsequent fights, which is another great characteristic of this battle.

After analyzing this fight, I cannot be brave enough to get any closer to whatever one might recommend that resembles a rework or remade of this very classic fight, taking in consideration it's nostalgic value and impressive weight it spreads on each part of your gameplay to achieve it's perfect result. And in a traditional stance, without the use of rollbacks but rather reviving options, and with the help of multiple survivors, this shadow king packs more than a punch, showing his cards as to why he's the face of the (hopefully) beggining of the shadow realm, and spawning of wild cave rifts. And if you're mostly playing alone, here's a quick message for you that you need to realize in your thoughts: The fight will be harder than multiplayer. Let this guy be the end of this pre-hardmore era as he currently stays, please for the franchise's sake!

[Dwight34]

46 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

Can we... please stop talking about Fuelweaver in this particular manner? Fuelweaver is not an impossible "BS" fight

I didn't say it's impossible, rather it was designed to be impossible. It's a common occurrence for devs to create meme difficulties that are not supposed to be beatable, but players find a way.

48 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

"people who are good at the fight (but like, derogatory)" and "normal people (group which only contains people of my particular playstyle and skill level)"

It's a fact that the majority of FW defenders are literal youtubers and speedrunners, aka extreme outliers whose opinion reflects a negligible minority of the game. I am the overwhelming majority of players, who despise or avoid FW. That same first category tends to enjoy specific glitches and exploits like voidwalking or itemswapping to reset attack timers that any and all comment sections on youtube will disapprove of since they're made of normal players.

There is no perception there, there is simply the truth. That negligible minority does not deserve to be bowed down to, they do not have the right to gatekeep and dictate what the game should be to 99.9% of the playerbase. Nothing toxic in refusing to bow down to an extreme minority of people who dedicate their lives to the game and have attached their ego to that fact, there is no rational argument as to why their investment should be a baseline for balance. It all boils down to a simple question: Should the game be fun for 99.9% of players, or a negligible "elite" hyper-minority of speedrunners and youtubers with extremely warped views on balance after training for hours using cheats/mods to get better in ways that never happen during an actual playthrough? Do you think it's fair to ask of every single player who wants to beat the FW to bow down to those elitists, install too many items and train against FW in a test world for 3 hours straight? Their totalitarian demands of needing to reach their investment to be allowed to have fun with the late game stuff is the most toxic thing I can imagine. "Be as good as someone who spent way too much time on this game or you do not deserve to enjoy the content"

Once again, if you're having a friendly chess competition full of amateurs, would Magnus Carlsen be justified to come in uninvited, force you all to duel him, then berate you for losing to him and tell you to git gud? Having practiced more does not make someone right or their opinions deserve any respect they don't give back.