Woodie can no longer use tree army on FW

[Arcwell]

35 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

I bet they can still plant themselves there with the panflute 

Treeguards don't plant trees, that's just their sleep animation.
FW needs to destroy a regular tree for all treeguards to aggro. Attacking a treeguard will only make that treeguard aggro.
There is currently no way (as far as I'm aware) to get a tree inside the FW arena outside of using a Festive Tree Planter, although this does not count as a real tree for the purpose of aggroing treeguards.

Also just tested Mudslinger, it does not work on the FW room. Thanks for the suggestion regardless though @JaxckLl

[YouKnowWho142]

I really don't understand what makes this so controversial to begin with honestly, it doesn't make any sense that trees could be planted on surfaces such as the atrium to begin with and I was never fond of Woodie's treeguard spam (latter is obviously an opinion, though the last thing we need is another character that relies on spamming mobs to kill whatever they want). Aside from the frequently mentioned fact that it was an unintended consequence, complaining that Woodie's gameplay is worse because he can't kill one specific boss using only pinecones, living logs, and nightmare fuel, or more specifically the idea that the change is "anti fun" just doesn't make much sense. It wasn't a playstyle, it was about the same as using gunpowder, which in itself isnt a very fun tactic

[Arcwell]

24 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I really don't understand what makes this so controversial to begin with honestly, it doesn't make any sense that trees could be planted on surfaces such as the atrium to begin with and I was never fond of Woodie's treeguard spam (latter is obviously an opinion, though the last thing we need is another character that relies on spamming mobs to kill whatever they want). Aside from the frequently mentioned fact that it was an unintended consequence, complaining that Woodie's gameplay is worse because he can't kill one specific boss using only pinecones, living logs, and nightmare fuel, or more specifically the idea that the change is "anti fun" just doesn't make much sense. It wasn't a playstyle, it was about the same as using gunpowder, which in itself isnt a very fun tactic

Fun is subjective.
I think it's fun to defeat bosses in unintended ways. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
This is just the next entry in a long list of patches that serve to railroad players into fighting bosses "the intended" way. That is why I take issue with it.

[JaxckLl]

2 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Treeguards don't plant trees, that's just their sleep animation.
FW needs to destroy a regular tree for all treeguards to aggro. Attacking a treeguard will only make that treeguard aggro.
There is currently no way (as far as I'm aware) to get a tree inside the FW arena outside of using a Festive Tree Planter, although this does not count as a real tree for the purpose of aggroing treeguards.

Also just tested Mudslinger, it does not work on the FW room. Thanks for the suggestion regardless though @JaxckLl

This is the vid I was referencing. Figured it was fixed 

 

1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

Fun is subjective.
I think it's fun to defeat bosses in unintended ways. I'm not the only one who thinks this.
This is just the next entry in a long list of patches that serve to railroad players into fighting bosses "the intended" way. That is why I take issue with it.

Agreed. Cheese lowers the barrier to entry on late game content by giving players options that are lower in skill and higher in game knowledge/preparation. I for one love Winona (she's my most played character) in large part because she lets me interact with the harder fights with dramatically less stress. Sure I can have fun completing those fights the "right" way, but I can also have fun getting to the content the boss unlocks.

[WilsonHiggs]

39 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Agreed. Cheese lowers the barrier to entry on late game content by giving players options that are lower in skill and higher in game knowledge/preparation. I for one love Winona (she's my most played character) in large part because she lets me interact with the harder fights with dramatically less stress. Sure I can have fun completing those fights the "right" way, but I can also have fun getting to the content the boss unlocks

While i kind of agree i think is unhealthy for the rift content difficulty to be accesible by any unskilled and/or unexperience player able to copy a cheese found in YouTube.

What kind of sh&tty rift content could be delivered if people Who cant switch weapons, have problemas farming few cacti or even refuse to get better at a game sold as difficult. There would be complains like "hail and acid rain deals a lot of damage", "BS helmet needs 10 more perks", "giant worm is very hard", "3 brightshades are imposible as a solo player", "maul should heal 16hp per hit" etc etc

[Hollow soul 3]

8 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Treeguards don't plant trees, that's just their sleep animation.
FW needs to destroy a regular tree for all treeguards to aggro. Attacking a treeguard will only make that treeguard aggro.
There is currently no way (as far as I'm aware) to get a tree inside the FW arena outside of using a Festive Tree Planter, although this does not count as a real tree for the purpose of aggroing treeguards.

Also just tested Mudslinger, it does not work on the FW room. Thanks for the suggestion regardless though @JaxckLl

Ah, that's fair enough. Having to pick between the transformation and the weather pain has to be rough. I haven't tried the fight solo though. He pairs really well with wortox, I think the woodie in my duo world got him in one transformation

[_mylilsunshine_]

10 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I really don't understand what makes this so controversial to begin with honestly, it doesn't make any sense that trees could be planted on surfaces such as the atrium to begin with and I was never fond of Woodie's treeguard spam (latter is obviously an opinion, though the last thing we need is another character that relies on spamming mobs to kill whatever they want). Aside from the frequently mentioned fact that it was an unintended consequence, complaining that Woodie's gameplay is worse because he can't kill one specific boss using only pinecones, living logs, and nightmare fuel, or more specifically the idea that the change is "anti fun" just doesn't make much sense. It wasn't a playstyle, it was about the same as using gunpowder, which in itself isnt a very fun tactic

While I do generally agree with what you said, like how "it doesn't make any sense that trees could be planted on surfaces such as the atrium to begin with" and "the last thing we need is another character that relies on spamming mobs to kill whatever they want", I think spamming gunpowder or anything analogous to it is absolutely a valid playstyle. At the end of the day, playstyle is just player's choices, and the more choices/autonomy a player has, the healthier the game would be, I believe so.

Can Woody still kill Fuelweaver without Treeguards? Absolutely. But has he lost an option? Yes. Because fun is objective, I objectively question what fun is in a sandbox game if I can't cheese shots from a boat, blow up bosses with copious amounts of gunpowder, or let my forest guardian goons smack the evil ancient diety back to the shadow realm?

If we scale down the action, it would be like telling people not to use beefalo to deal with hound waves and you have to fight them yourselves instead.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

While I do generally agree with what you said, like how "it doesn't make any sense that trees could be planted on surfaces such as the atrium to begin with" and "the last thing we need is another character that relies on spamming mobs to kill whatever they want", I think spamming gunpowder or anything analogous to it is absolutely a valid playstyle. At the end of the day, playstyle is just player's choices, and the more choices/autonomy a player has, the healthier the game would be, I believe so.

Can Woody still kill Fuelweaver without Treeguards? Absolutely. But has he lost an option? Yes. Because fun is objective, I objectively question what fun is in a sandbox game if I can't cheese shots from a boat, blow up bosses with copious amounts of gunpowder, or let my forest guardian goons smack the evil ancient diety back to the shadow realm?

If we scale down the action, it would be like telling people not to use beefalo to deal with hound waves and you have to fight them yourselves instead.

DST isn't a sandbox game as a core aspect of sandbox games is having a dedicated creative mode which DST lacks...

Just a FYI....

[_mylilsunshine_]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

DST isn't a sandbox game as a core aspect of sandbox games is having a dedicated creative mode which DST lacks...

Just a FYI....

I feel like Minecraft deluded people into believing sandbox = "creative mode", even the term "creative mode" comes from that game. While the bulk of DST is survival, it is still a sandbox game, by the definition from Wikipedia,

Quote

A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys.

If you don't like Wikipedia as a source, please provide an alternative. Again, Terraria is also considered a sandbox game, yet it doesn't have a creative mode. DST is actually more "sandbox" than most other non-linear games, as it provides players with console commands. While Skyrim is predominantly known for its action and role-playing, it has most if not all elements of sandbox.

[Gashzer]

34 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

I feel like Minecraft deluded people into believing sandbox = "creative mode", even the term "creative mode" comes from that game. While the bulk of DST is survival, it is still a sandbox game, by the definition from Wikipedia,

If you don't like Wikipedia as a source, please provide an alternative. Again, Terraria is also considered a sandbox game, yet it doesn't have a creative mode. DST is actually more "sandbox" than most other non-linear games, as it provides players with console commands. While Skyrim is predominantly known for its action and role-playing, it has most if not all elements of sandbox.

A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that provides players a great degree of creativity to interact with, usually without any predetermined goal, or with a goal that the players set for themselves. Such games may lack any objective, and are sometimes referred to as non-games or software toys.

You are 100% correct, DST is such a non-game and ill be referring to it as that going forward, thank you for giving me the correct definition for DST

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

If you don't like Wikipedia as a source, please provide an alternative.

I can provide another source other than Wikipedia. Many developers, such as Bungie and Crytek, have explicitly called their first-person shooters Halo and Hunt: Showdown sandbox games in their developer commentaries. They refer to their own games as sandboxes and see player expression, choice, and creativity as a big driving factor for the fun of their games. 

[aidankocherhans]

4 hours ago, Gashzer said:

You are 100% correct, DST is such a non-game and ill be referring to it as that going forward, thank you for giving me the correct definition for DST

 

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

DST isn't a sandbox game as a core aspect of sandbox games is having a dedicated creative mode which DST lacks...

Just a FYI....

And your point is?

[cropo]

16 hours ago, WilsonHiggs said:

While i kind of agree i think is unhealthy for the rift content difficulty to be accesible by any unskilled and/or unexperience player able to copy a cheese found in YouTube.

What kind of sh&tty rift content could be delivered if people Who cant switch weapons, have problemas farming few cacti or even refuse to get better at a game sold as difficult. There would be complains like "hail and acid rain deals a lot of damage", "BS helmet needs 10 more perks", "giant worm is very hard", "3 brightshades are imposible as a solo player", "maul should heal 16hp per hit" etc etc

This would make sense if any Rift content currently available was actually harder than Fuelweaver.

The barrier and difficulty Fuelweaver imposes on the player is unlike anything else in the game period, it's an entirely unique level of difficulty that the player has to learn exclusively for that boss and never comes into play anywhere else.

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I can provide another source other than Wikipedia. Many developers, such as Bungie and Crytek, have explicitly called their first-person shooters Halo and Hunt: Showdown sandbox games in their developer commentaries. They refer to their own games as sandboxes and see player expression, choice, and creativity as a big driving factor for the fun of their games. 

1 hour ago, aidankocherhans said:

 

And your point is?

I believe DST would be a better game if it was less sandbox like and had a greater sense of linear progression which we are getting with the wagstaff vs Charlie arc.

Klei bug fixing cheeses is also giving DST much needed structure instead of the good old "throw shite at a wall and see what sticks method" which people are wrongly linking to "creative approaches". 

It's not creative, it's literally a couple of DST obsessed players with 10+ hours using PC console commands to conveniently, for lack of a more accurate phrase, "multi-vector hack" approach to discover ways to cheese then spreading that cheese to the wider DST playerbase. This is not creative and should not be praised. 

Problematic bosses like AFW need either retweaked to be less messy an incoherent (AFW doesn't need any mad reworks tbh, giving him a ranged shadow attack would be cool tho) or optional nerf items like my moonlight shackle suggestion that you can discover and craft from exploring that adds to lore and nerfs a boss without it being a permanent nerf.

[Hollow soul 3]

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

DST isn't a sandbox game as a core aspect of sandbox games is having a dedicated creative mode which DST lacks...

Just a FYI....

There are sandbox games that pre-date creative mode

[WilsonHiggs]

21 minutes ago, cropo said:

This would make sense if any Rift content currently available was actually harder than Fuelweaver.

The barrier and difficulty Fuelweaver imposes on the player is unlike anything else in the game period, it's an entirely unique level of difficulty that the player has to learn exclusively for that boss and never comes into play anywhere else.

I know and they cant delivery anything close because people expect to beat the entire content by just spamming healing food while they facetank with cheap armor and a hambat

[Gashzer]

18 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

There's are sandbox games that pre-date creative mode

DST is a survival game first an foremost. Survival games have set rules to follow or else you die. They arnt really a true sandbox because you always need to follow the rules of survival or you die eg starve to death.

I also expect the boss fights in DST to have pretty solid rules of engagement. I prefer having 5 bosses that require a single unique strategy to kill for each, than 5 bosses that I can just spam treeguards to kill. These arnt "unique" strategies, they actually remove gameplay because instead of learning that unique strategy and having a different gameplay experience, I can just spam treeguards.

Now I get spamming treeguards makes woodie unique so you get a unique experience while playing woodie. But it cant work for the harder game-changing bosses like AFW, there needs to be balance so players arnt shoehorned into becoming a Woodie main because they discovered treeguards can demolish every boss and refuse to try different characters as a result. Same goes for Winona and her catapults.

Non-competitive games are more fun if they are balanced.

[_mylilsunshine_]

2 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

And your point is?

I see them as a known troll and rage baiter, so I keep my interaction with them minimal and conclusive. You can consider doing the same 

[Hollow soul 3]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

DST is a survival game first an foremost. Survival games have set rules to follow or else you die. They arnt really a true sandbox because you always need to follow the rules of survival or you die eg starve to death.

Not really. You can turn off lethal everything on the world settings. I don't really care about labels, but you're telling people what the game isn't, and you're wrong.

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

Not really. You can turn off lethal everything on the world settings. I don't really care about labels, but you're telling people what the game isn't, and you're wrong.

DST is a survival game. If one way of survival like spamming treeguards for AFW isn't working for you then find another way. Simple as that, don't complain.

23 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

I see them as a known troll and rage baiter, so I keep my interaction with them minimal and conclusive. You can consider doing the same 

Ah yes, speaking with logic is known as trolling these days. Good to know 

[Kwaik]

Glad to know we're prioritizing less ways to kill FW, while completely ignoring the controller fix for consoles which is a huge part of the problem when it comes to fighting FW 

[cropo]

1 hour ago, WilsonHiggs said:

I know and they cant delivery anything close because people expect to beat the entire content by just spamming healing food while they facetank with cheap armor and a hambat

The only reason Fuelweaver is uniquely difficult is his healing; while all of his other moves combined are difficult to manage they aren't really this massive hurdle to overcome. If his healing was replaced by something like insta-killing the player for a few seconds any time he eats his bugs, even that would make him easier than he currently is.

So Fuelweaver is basically only hard because if the player plays on console or doesn't have Runescape-level PVP skills the fight can be undone in an instant, and that basically tells me that the only possible way they could top Fuelweaver in difficulty is to make another boss that can just instantly heal itself and undo the entire fight on a simple mistake while requiring the juggling of multiple items at once.

If they don't add an instant "screw you" mechanic to punish a mistake, no future content will ever be as difficult as fuelweaver is, and if they do keep adding bosses like that then Fuelweaver would no longer be unique.

A lot of post-rift bosses don't seem very feasible to just hold F on either, many of them have built-in mechanics to ragdoll you or freeze you if you try. I'm sure there are ways to do it but their movesets are pretty fun to actually interact with without needing players to fiddle around with a decade-old inventory system that most players aren't going to bother trying to skip the fights.

[Hollow soul 3]

47 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

DST is a survival game. If one way of survival like spamming treeguards for AFW isn't working for you then find another way. Simple as that, don't complain.

Ah yes, speaking with logic is known as trolling these days. Good to know 

I never said it wasn't a survival game. You're boxing it into a pretty small frame of how you prefer to play the game. It is a survival game, it's also a sandbox, RPG, multiplay adventure. If you check back, I haven't complained about the tree guard cheese being removed.

Since you missed it the first time, I'm happy enough to reiterate. It's a harder flight for solo woodie mains, because the moose's speed vs fw's healing and shield. Untransformed is a better option to deal with him when you're playing solo. With that in mind, he's not that hard if you're prepared. With a lazy explorer, a couple weather pains, some armor and healing you should be able to take him. That or get more players to help just, it's in the name of the game 

[aidankocherhans]

24 minutes ago, cropo said:

The only reason Fuelweaver is uniquely difficult is his healing; while all of his other moves combined are difficult to manage they aren't really this massive hurdle to overcome. If his healing was replaced by something like insta-killing the player for a few seconds any time he eats his bugs, even that would make him easier than he currently is.

So Fuelweaver is basically only hard because if the player plays on console or doesn't have Runescape-level PVP skills the fight can be undone in an instant, and that basically tells me that the only possible way they could top Fuelweaver in difficulty is to make another boss that can just instantly heal itself and undo the entire fight on a simple mistake while requiring the juggling of multiple items at once.

If they don't add an instant "screw you" mechanic to punish a mistake, no future content will ever be as difficult as fuelweaver is, and if they do keep adding bosses like that then Fuelweaver would no longer be unique.

A lot of post-rift bosses don't seem very feasible to just hold F on either, many of them have built-in mechanics to ragdoll you or freeze you if you try. I'm sure there are ways to do it but their movesets are pretty fun to actually interact with without needing players to fiddle around with a decade-old inventory system that most players aren't going to bother trying to skip the fights.

The issue with fuelweaver that people don't get is, for the most part, dst doesn't require you to "get good" at combat. Partly because of the open nature of the game that allows for creative solutions to problems, and partly because the game's combat is clunkier than most combat oriented games.

People hate the idea of "holding f" to defeat a boss, but really grinding up the extra resources required to do that is still playing the game. If you choose a more skill based approach, you save time and resources, that's your reward for getting better at combat.

Fuelweaver arguably goes against the design philosophy of the game, requiring near perfect combat and item management for an extended period of time, and no amount of grinding will help with that except ones that largely bypass the fight. If you screw up even once, you may as well reset, because everything you've done in the fight was a waste of time and resources.

Celestial champion is a much better boss for this game. It does require you to get much better at fighting, killing allies easily and being unviable to fully tank, but it gives a lot of leeway if you are prepared enough. You can leave the fight for a short or long time without losing much or any progress, and preparing lots of armor and healing can get you through it even if you screw up a lot. 

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, aidankocherhans said:

Fuelweaver arguably goes against the design philosophy of the game, requiring near perfect combat and item

Not really fuel weaver is exactly how the game is ment to be it's the final test on a series of trials the player should have learned to deal with.  Minion spam, proper positioning, movement restrictions, Sanity, and spacing. Dont starve was learning through dying.