Should the RoG bosses be tweaked to be more fun?

[aidancode]

I think a lot of people want to see reworks to some of the A New Reign bosses, but nobody ever talks about the Reign of Giants crew. I think Klei somewhat did do a rework for these bosses with the mutated boss, but I want to propose something else here. Very few bosses in DST are required to interact with, and very few bosses are reasonable for new players without any guides. This is okay! It adds to the sense of scale and oppression with the game in the early days. But I feel like the fights that new players do have access to are rather dull. DST is known for having a bad and clunky combat system which I wholeheartedly disagree with, I just think it takes too long to get interesting. Tweaks to the seasonal bosses to make them actually feel like bosses could go a long way to bridging the gap between new and experienced player, since it really feels like new and experienced play are vastly different to each other with no real connection.

 

1. Deerclops: To be honest, I can totally see the appeal of leaving Deerclops as-is. It's Deerclops, an absolute classic, and the real problem ultimately with the other two non-reworked bosses from RoG is how similar they are to Deerclops. Leaving Deerclops as the standard is honestly completely fine and its sanity gimmick is already enough to make the fight quite stressful and tough for a lot of new players. While it's not as fun of a first boss as the Eye, it fits its role quite well as the first required boss.

2. Moose/Goose: This is probably the worst boss in the game from a "there is nothing you can do with this boss that's fun" kind of standpoint. I think the best way to rework Moose/Goose is to make the babies an active participant in the fight from the beginning, toned down to keep the difficulty fairly reasonable. Moose/Goose really does not need 6000 HP in this hypothetical, so picture this: 4000 HP Moose/Goose, engaging in combat with the boss makes the babies all come to attack you, they attack much less often than before and have 90% damage resistance until Moose/Goose herself dies. I think this already spices up the fight a lot and can make it work better in multiplayer too.

3. Bearger: Probably the most nothing boss considering there's typically no incentive to actually fighting the guy. Since people are going to use him for wood chopping anyways, why not take that into consideration for the design? Make him charge more often and much faster to really keep people on their toes and encourage speed boosting items like the walking cane or a beefalo. Give him the stun-knockback effect of his mutated variant on each of his attacks. Finally, I think Bearger of all bosses does deserve a light health regeneration effect over time, not only to make him more unique and encourage aggressive play, but also to keep him around for longer for those who want to use him for tree harvesting. Bearger, in my opinion, is way too easy a boss for Autumn 2. The player just completed a year in the Constant and the first thing that happens is the easiest season of them all? I think having a stronger Bearger to spice it up could be good.

 

I've proposed a lot of buffs here, and I can understand why some people wouldn't want the seasonal bosses made more difficult to kill. After all, they already got massive HP buffs from singleplayer. But at the end of the day, the purpose of this post is to highlight that Deerclops, Moose/Goose and Bearger are effectively the same boss but with one bonus gimmick each, be it the sanity drain, the honk, or the charge. That's not really very interesting design and in modern day DST where bosses are quite involved and interesting and even the Eye of Terror, one of the earliest bosses you can fight, has way more complexity to it than the boss that spawns after nearly 80 days in the Constant... it feels lacking.

[Evelo]

Well Deerclops and Bearger were slightly changed. Both now have a frontal cone attack instead of the previous full circle AoE single target, like most monsters do when they attack. Now it matches their animation from way back when. Bearger also has a swipe lines added to further indicate this.

Though over all, I wouldn't say no to spicing these bosses up. Dragonfly can be remedied pretty easily just by allowing the Lavae to attack walls. Simple change and keeps the cheese strategy of walling it off but now just requires reinforcing the walls with more health if you want to do that.

For bearger, deerclops, and M/Goose. Idk but I wouldn't say no.

[aidancode]

2 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Well Deerclops and Bearger were slightly changed. Both now have a frontal cone attack instead of the previous full circle AoE single target, like most monsters do when they attack. Now it matches their animation from way back when. Bearger also has a swipe lines added to further indicate this.

Though over all, I wouldn't say no to spicing these bosses up. Dragonfly can be remedied pretty easily just by allowing the Lavae to attack walls. Simple change and keeps the cheese strategy of walling it off but now just requires reinforcing the walls with more health if you want to do that.

For bearger, deerclops, and M/Goose. Idk but I wouldn't say no.

The attack hitboxes changing on Deerclops and Bearger is more of a speed convenience for people who know what they're doing, whereas this post specifically means to address how uninteresting the bosses aimed at new players are. And yes, I agree, removing Dragonfly cheese and nerfing the fight a little would go a long way.

[Cassielu]

The tweaked they really need to fix their unfinished ecological behavior rather than more ACT gameplay.

[Cheggf]

Moose needs to not be counted as a passive mob because goose is currently trying to freaking gore my freaking entrails out with her huge antlers so please stop forcing me to hold the attack modifier and start charging at random crows or whatever she is clearly a threat she is attacking me I am currently making goofy instrument noises as she headbutts me to death please she is hostile I beg you

[landromat]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Well Deerclops and Bearger were slightly changed. Both now have a frontal cone attack instead of the previous full circle AoE single target, like most monsters do when they attack. Now it matches their animation from way back when. Bearger also has a swipe lines added to further indicate this.

Though over all, I wouldn't say no to spicing these bosses up. Dragonfly can be remedied pretty easily just by allowing the Lavae to attack walls. Simple change and keeps the cheese strategy of walling it off but now just requires reinforcing the walls with more health if you want to do that.

For bearger, deerclops, and M/Goose. Idk but I wouldn't say no.

also bearger got his charge back. Wasn't a thing in early dst

[AliceShiki]

2 hours ago, Evelo said:

Dragonfly can be remedied pretty easily just by allowing the Lavae to attack walls. Simple change and keeps the cheese strategy of walling it off but now just requires reinforcing the walls with more health if you want to do that.

I don't think Dragonfly needs any change, tbh.

It's super fun to fight Dragonfly fairly, and it's super easy to cheese it if you want to... To me that's just perfect. Easy to have fun with, and easy to cheese. I don't see much of a purpose in trying to make it harder to cheese a boss fight, because people who are cheesing aren't trying to have fun with that specific fight, they just want to complete a chore to get their resources to then move on to do other stuff that they actually consider fun... There's no need to make it harder for people to complete a chore, and Dragonfly with Walls is just that, a chore.

Leave Dragonfly be for the people who want to have fun with the boss fight, and leave Dragonfly be for people who just find it a chore that they want to clear quickly and move on with the game. I don't think there is any need to make any changes there.

2 hours ago, aidancode said:

2. Moose/Goose: This is probably the worst boss in the game from a "there is nothing you can do with this boss that's fun" kind of standpoint. I think the best way to rework Moose/Goose is to make the babies an active participant in the fight from the beginning, toned down to keep the difficulty fairly reasonable. Moose/Goose really does not need 6000 HP in this hypothetical, so picture this: 4000 HP Moose/Goose, engaging in combat with the boss makes the babies all come to attack you, they attack much less often than before and have 90% damage resistance until Moose/Goose herself dies. I think this already spices up the fight a lot and can make it work better in multiplayer too.

I'm not against a rework on Moose/Goose, but I don't think a 90% damage reduction on the babies would be the way to go about it, because like... The natural instinct one would have when facing a boss with minions, would be to first kill the minions to reduce the amount of stuff you need to focus on, to then focus on the bigger boss now that the fight is simplified... Making it so that focusing on the minions is a terrible idea would go against human instinct.

I'd just make it so that the minions attack from the start while Moose/Goose is aggressive. it would already make the fight much harder, and killing the babies would slowly, but surely make the fight easier, until eventually it's just Moose/Goose left.

But yeah, I wouldn't be against a rework on them.

2 hours ago, aidancode said:

3. Bearger: Probably the most nothing boss considering there's typically no incentive to actually fighting the guy. Since people are going to use him for wood chopping anyways, why not take that into consideration for the design? Make him charge more often and much faster to really keep people on their toes and encourage speed boosting items like the walking cane or a beefalo. Give him the stun-knockback effect of his mutated variant on each of his attacks. Finally, I think Bearger of all bosses does deserve a light health regeneration effect over time, not only to make him more unique and encourage aggressive play, but also to keep him around for longer for those who want to use him for tree harvesting. Bearger, in my opinion, is way too easy a boss for Autumn 2. The player just completed a year in the Constant and the first thing that happens is the easiest season of them all? I think having a stronger Bearger to spice it up could be good.

I don't think new players would consider using Bearger to chop wood, so I don't think redesigning the boss around that would be a good idea.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to redesign it to be a more fun fight for new players though. I just don't think the idea of making the design take the woodchopping into account would be a good one.

2 hours ago, aidancode said:

But I feel like the fights that new players do have access to are rather dull. DST is known for having a bad and clunky combat system which I wholeheartedly disagree with, I just think it takes too long to get interesting.

That said... When a player struggles with Treeguards, throwing them to fight something like Moose/Goose is already terrifying, and so is Bearger... Even Deerclops is pretty terrifying until you find out that you just need to facetank it with a campfire right next to you.

Having simple seasonal bosses that force the player to actually engage with combat is helpful to let them actually try learning how to fight bosses... I dunno if making them more complicated would be the right move. I'm not really against a change, but I don't know if a change would really be a good idea either.

[gaymime]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Moose needs to not be counted as a passive mob because goose is currently trying to freaking gore my freaking entrails out with her huge antlers so please stop forcing me to hold the attack modifier and start charging at random crows or whatever she is clearly a threat she is attacking me I am currently making goofy instrument noises as she headbutts me to death please she is hostile I beg you

ok, so i am not the strongest fighter out there, heck, i am a pretty soft boy all things considred but, my guy, have you considered;

Spoiler

 

5 hours ago, aidancode said:

2. Moose/Goose: This is probably the worst boss in the game from a "there is nothing you can do with this boss that's fun" kind of standpoint.

moosegoose is actually pretty engaging when you are not a veteran. she is dangerous and comes at you BUT she is slow, she gives up easily and she will try to disarm you before actually attacking. her actions in the first half-minute of being close tells the player "this is not a spider; you cant just facetank" and, if the player already knows about befriending mobs is going to offer a really neat moment of potentiality when the player comes onto the idea that MAYBE this is a place where your local pig friends might be able to help. mob fighting is suited to this sort of boss and in true ds fashion soon as you kill goose the babies will stomp your mob friends and remind you that the game really does hate you and nothing is as straightforward as it seems X'''D

[Mike23Ua]

Most the boss fights aren’t even worth the effort required to fight them.

i was playing as Walter fighting Deerclops with marble ammo the other night (people who play the game in multiplayer never notice this part…) but it takes ALOT of damn ammo just to kill Deerclops! after I finally finished her off… I forgot that I had Lunar Rifts enabled so she turned into Crystal Clops and at that point I just exited the game and went and played something that wasn’t DST, I guess it’s cause I had already exhausted a ton of ammo and time on fighting Deerclops, a fight which… is over in about a minutes time if you just rush at her with a spear or Hambat.

So then… Is Walters Ammo just that terrible? If the better option is to fight the boss on foot???

And that brings me to my next issue with Walters gameplay, intent is to ride Woby dodge attacks, fire ammo.. that’s cool but, if I’m holding a sword or something while mounted on Woby then I should be able to attack (with the weapon, not Woby) 

This for me at least** would make Walter more enjoyable, Otherwise…. I don’t even feel like wasting 100 pellets of marble or more on Deerclops (the lowest health boss in the game) But it still takes such an awfully long time to kill her even with marble ammo rounds (the third tier of Walters ammo) that I’d rather just play a game that wasn’t designed around having 6 players fighting together.

[Well-met]

deerclops and bearger were already tweaked to be more fun, or have you already forgot?

their attacks can actually miss now.

[lowercase skye]

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So then… Is Walters Ammo just that terrible? If the better option is to fight the boss on foot???

How much have you filled out his skill tree? The Ammo Smith skill makes crafting yield 50% more ammo, while the Slingshot Customization branch gives him slingshot upgrades that increase its fire rate, range, and other effects. The Shattering Rounds skill also lets you craft ammo out of moon glass that's just as effective as marbles while being more cost efficient (if you peek into every cave entrance you see, you'll naturally find the blue mushroom biome at one of them, and can go mine a couple stacks of moon glass from the lunar grotto as early as the first few days.), and Utility Rounds gives you special sticky honey rounds that slow your target temporarily. If you incorporate some of these into your gameplay, Deerclops will go by faster and more cost efficiently.

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

So then… Is Walters Ammo just that terrible? If the better option is to fight the boss on foot???

believe it or not you don't need to use the slingshot against every boss and mob. though, statistically:

Glass cutter: 6 moon glass, 68 damage, 75 uses - 5100 damage

Moonshot: 6 moon glass, 51 damage, 180 shots - 9180 damage excluding aoe damage

Unless you're fighting nightmares that moonshot is incredibly efficient at damage, almost 10k damage per 6 moon glass is no joke and way easier than marble to amass

 

[Echsrick]

not needed alsol fun depends on the person

[aidankocherhans]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Most the boss fights aren’t even worth the effort required to fight them.

i was playing as Walter fighting Deerclops with marble ammo the other night (people who play the game in multiplayer never notice this part…) but it takes ALOT of damn ammo just to kill Deerclops! after I finally finished her off… I forgot that I had Lunar Rifts enabled so she turned into Crystal Clops and at that point I just exited the game and went and played something that wasn’t DST, I guess it’s cause I had already exhausted a ton of ammo and time on fighting Deerclops, a fight which… is over in about a minutes time if you just rush at her with a spear or Hambat.

So then… Is Walters Ammo just that terrible? If the better option is to fight the boss on foot???

And that brings me to my next issue with Walters gameplay, intent is to ride Woby dodge attacks, fire ammo.. that’s cool but, if I’m holding a sword or something while mounted on Woby then I should be able to attack (with the weapon, not Woby) 

This for me at least** would make Walter more enjoyable, Otherwise…. I don’t even feel like wasting 100 pellets of marble or more on Deerclops (the lowest health boss in the game) But it still takes such an awfully long time to kill her even with marble ammo rounds (the third tier of Walters ammo) that I’d rather just play a game that wasn’t designed around having 6 players fighting together.

You don't have to use the slingshot for deerclops, you can kite, and it'll actually be better than for other characters because of the sanity aura immunity 

Marble rounds are not meant to be your boss killing ammo, they're a medium damage ammo, use cursed rounds or something from the skill tree, combined with the slingshot skills you'll have much better DPS

[Mike23Ua]

39 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

You don't have to use the slingshot for deerclops, you can kite, and it'll actually be better than for other characters because of the sanity aura immunity 

Marble rounds are not meant to be your boss killing ammo, they're a medium damage ammo, use cursed rounds or something from the skill tree, combined with the slingshot skills you'll have much better DPS

Aren’t most the “boss rounds” locked behind character affinities? I don’t bother with any of the late game materials cause I’ll never reach that part of the game to unlock them.

[aidankocherhans]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Aren’t most the “boss rounds” locked behind character affinities? I don’t bother with any of the late game materials cause I’ll never reach that part of the game to unlock them.

The strongest ones are, but there's plenty of other strong options. Cursed rounds can even compete with affinity rounds if the enemy is slow/slowed enough.