Add some hunger cost to all of Woby's actions as a trade-off/为woby的各项行为都添加一些饱食度消耗作为代价

[Catapult 2.0]

   Currently, Woby's "retrieving," "foraging," and "deliver" commands require no effort or cost. All you need to do is click a button to achieve functions that many other characters can't perform, or that would cost other characters some resources to do. Moreover, it doesn't make sense that Woby doesn't consume anything while performing these tasks.

• Woby's "retrieving" skill significantly outperforms Wormwood's carrat in every aspect. For a detailed analysis, please refer to my post below.

• The "foraging" skill is a resource-gathering ability. In comparison, "Applied Horticulture," which is also a resource-gathering skill, requires the user to additionally consume sanity.

• For such a unique skill like "deliver," it's surprising that Woby doesn't get hungry at all after long-distance travel. Woby should consume hunger based on the distance traveled during these activities.

These skills should not be usable when Woby's hunger is insufficient.

 

 

  现在Woby的“retrieving”，“foraging”，“deliver”指令都无需仍和消耗，只需点一个按钮就可以实现很多角色无法实现和一些角色需要花费代价才能实现的功能。而且woby做这些事什么都不会消耗这也并不合理。

• “retrieving”技能已经在各方面战胜沃姆伍德的carrat了，详细分析看我上面这篇帖子。
• “foraging”技能是一个获取资源的技能，同样作为获取资源的代表“应用园艺学”还需要额外消耗使用者的理智值。
• “deliver”这样独一无二的技能，woby进行往返的长途跋涉居然一点也不饿。Woby应该根据往返的路程长度消耗饱食度

这些技能在woby饱食度不足时应该无法进行。

 

[Mysterious box]

16 minutes ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

   Currently, Woby's "retrieving," "foraging," and "deliver" commands require no effort or cost. All you need to do is click a button to achieve functions that many other characters can't perform, or that would cost other characters some resources to do. Moreover, it doesn't make sense that Woby doesn't consume anything while performing these tasks.

• Woby's "retrieving" skill significantly outperforms Wormwood's carrat in every aspect. For a detailed analysis, please refer to my post below.

 

• The "foraging" skill is a resource-gathering ability. In comparison, "Applied Horticulture," which is also a resource-gathering skill, requires the user to additionally consume sanity.

• For such a unique skill like "deliver," it's surprising that Woby doesn't get hungry at all after long-distance travel. Woby should consume hunger based on the distance traveled during these activities.

These skills should not be usable when Woby's hunger is insufficient.

 

 

  现在Woby的“retrieving”，“foraging”，“deliver”指令都无需仍和消耗，只需点一个按钮就可以实现很多角色无法实现和一些角色需要花费代价才能实现的功能。而且woby做这些事什么都不会消耗这也并不合理。

• “retrieving”技能已经在各方面战胜沃姆伍德的carrat了，详细分析看我上面这篇帖子。
• “foraging”技能是一个获取资源的技能，同样作为获取资源的代表“应用园艺学”还需要额外消耗使用者的理智值。
• “deliver”这样独一无二的技能，woby进行往返的长途跋涉居然一点也不饿。Woby应该根据往返的路程长度消耗饱食度

这些技能在woby饱食度不足时应该无法进行。

 

So in other words you want Woby to be completely unusable? You want her foraging, collecting, and delivering to cost hunger on top of her default natural hunger drain, dashing hunger drain, and mining hunger drain? This would be the equivalent of if Wormwood lost hp every second his carrats were out multiplied by the number on top of the initial cast.

[Catapult 2.0]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So in other words you want Woby to be completely unusable? You want her foraging, collecting, and delivering to cost hunger on top of her default natural hunger drain, dashing hunger drain, and mining hunger drain? This would be the equivalent of if Wormwood lost hp every second his carrats were out multiplied by the number on top of the initial cast.

Would this make Woby completely unusable? Different skills should have different hunger consumption rates. It wouldn't make all actions as fast as mining. Moreover, you can fully control whether Woby performs a certain action, avoiding unnecessary hunger waste. In contrast, Carrat is completely uncontrollable.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Would this make Woby completely unusable? Different skills should have different hunger consumption rates. It wouldn't make all actions as fast as mining. Moreover, you can fully control whether Woby performs a certain action, avoiding unnecessary hunger waste. In contrast, Carrat is completely uncontrollable.

I guess unusable is a poor choice of words but it'd be basically impossible to reasonably make use of her abilities with so much hunger drain for example every 2 strikes when working is 1 hunger drained from Woby, a dash is 3 hunger drained from Woby, running is a increased hunger drain from Woby. Her hunger cap is only 50 and she gains hunger at the normal rate from monster meat or Woby treats if you put the extra skill point in so a change like this would strangle any real use cases for her abilities unless you have a huge stockpile of monster meat to burn. This change would just give no incentive to meaningfully invest in the Woby branch since she'd just be too expensive and adding such a cost on Woby here, Woby there would just destroy the skill at this point since it's already asking for a steep skill point investment.

To give further examples using a follower is faster and cheaper than working with Woby, using a lazy forager would be cheaper than relying on Woby if a cost taken out per item grabbed, furry forager just wouldn't be worth it at all with a hunger cost because now your trading meat for plants which is usually always a worse trade, and finally for the delivery skill you may as well just use a piggyback and bundling wraps to save yourself the skill points and meat you'd need to grind.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

So in other words you want Woby to be completely unusable? You want her foraging, collecting, and delivering to cost hunger on top of her default natural hunger drain, dashing hunger drain, and mining hunger drain? This would be the equivalent of if Wormwood lost hp every second his carrats were out multiplied by the number on top of the initial cast.

I don't think this would makes Woby become completely unusable. At least the deliver do need a cost.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

and finally for the delivery skill you may as well just use a piggyback and bundling wraps to save yourself the skill points and meat you'd need to grind.

You may as well just use a piggyback and bundling wraps to save yourself the skill point of Picnic Basket.

I don't think this make sense tbh. The deliver skill do need a cost, even it could be small.

It should be suitable for the lore. It's quite strange that Woby could "teleport" for the deliver and lose no hunger.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

You may as well just use a piggyback and bundling wraps to save yourself the skill point of Picnic Basket.

Fair enough let's make Wendy's basket cost a 4 skill point investment.

[Steorra]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Fair enough let's make Wendy's basket cost a 4 skill point investment.

So your opinion is that a few hunger lost for each deliver of Woby is as expensive as 3 skill points?

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Steorra said:

So your opinion is that a few hunger lost for each deliver of Woby is as expensive as 3 skill points?

I'm saying if he should have both why not Wendy? Afterall you brought it up as a comparison.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm saying if he should have both why not Wendy? Afterall you brought it up as a comparison.

I won't stop you to try anything ngl. Feel free to ask extra cost for Picnic Basket. Just do what you want.

I still insist that the deliver need a cost of hunger. Whatever you say.

 

[lio516]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

So in other words you want Woby to be completely unusable? You want her foraging, collecting, and delivering to cost hunger on top of her default natural hunger drain, dashing hunger drain, and mining hunger drain? This would be the equivalent of if Wormwood lost hp every second his carrats were out multiplied by the number on top of the initial cast.

Walter is too strong

[Ugur01]

The hunger bar is just about her monster side (Big Woby). We feed her with monster meat to maintain her monster form and dash skill. Should Walter pay a price just because he has great abilities?

Woby's hunger bar is not like the player's, it's just related to the monster side

[Crimson Hollow]

For the last sliver of good faith left in this discussion:

1. Hunger cost for woby collecting and foraging skills

I am not really opposed to this idea, she could have some hunger drain from these two activities. However, the cost should be moderate, perhaps half or one-third of that of chopping/mining. And the hunger drain should be restricted to monster form, making her better at big form at the cost of hunger

2. Hunger cost for woby delivery

This feels a bit unnecessary considering the fact that she was just doing average Woby things, as well as the skillpoint cost as Mysterious box mentioned. The default hunger drain should suffice. That said, I can see why some might argue for additional hunger cost.

If either of these were implemented, it would necessitate the need of a larger hunger pool for woby. Maybe bumping it up to 100 or sth, 50 as the first transformation threshold and she can freely transform between big and small with 30 hunger or above. (Thanks Walrusst) This is to avoid annoying repetitive work of feeding woby every 10 seconds if everything costs hunger.

As for the carrats, i believe Making them able to dig for treasure like woby digging badge, as you suggested in another thread, would be a good idea to set them apart.

 

 

[Cassielu]

I think this goes against the logic of Woby's hunger, but whatever, it's probably not that important.

[Catuna_]

2 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

 Currently, Woby's "retrieving," "foraging," and "deliver" commands require no effort or cost. All you need to do is click a button to achieve functions that many other characters can't perform, or that would cost other characters some resources to do.

I think that's the point of unique mechanics? Willow's fire immunity is something that costs resources for example, or Wigfrid's lifesteal which is something that you'd need a batbat or maul for, Woodie's 90% damage reduction is much cheaper. Maxwell's workers require ONE fifth of a nightmare fuel each... Characters revolve around making certain interactions cheaper, opening up the ability to play the game in ways other characters cannot access as conveniently, if at all.

2 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Woby's "retrieving" skill significantly outperforms Wormwood's carrat in every aspect. For a detailed analysis, please refer to my post below.

I feel like that's a carrats being bad issue? It's not like carrats were this hugely sought out follower before this skill tree.

2 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

The "foraging" skill is a resource-gathering ability. In comparison, "Applied Horticulture," which is also a resource-gathering skill, requires the user to additionally consume sanity.

Yes, and applied horticulture also outperforms Woby infinitely in terms of efficiency because you literally bypass the regrowth timer of crops. Woby gives you one extra banana per harvest while Wickerbottom is able to give you several harvests in a row before she goes insane and has to manage her sanity or before needing her books to recharge. This comparison is not fair.

2 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

For such a unique skill like "deliver," it's surprising that Woby doesn't get hungry at all after long-distance travel. Woby should consume hunger based on the distance traveled during these activities.

Maxwell's shadow magician hat can link up to any other shadow storage in the game, as well as being the only character to be able to access shadow storage in the caves all for very little costs, I don't see why Woby is an issue here.

Ignoring how literally none of this is "broken", I really do plead you to ask first "Would this really be fun?" first because adding hunger related downsides to Woby just makes her feel worse to use, the point is that Woby and Walter are a duo and that you're essentially playing two characters, if you make Woby's upkeep so annoying from her needing hunger to do **ANYTHING** I would personally just turn off these perks all together and pretend like she doesn't exist, and at that point we're back to square one.

[PunkShark]

3 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

   Currently, Woby's "retrieving," "foraging," and "deliver" commands require no effort or cost. All you need to do is click a button to achieve functions that many other characters can't perform

 

Yes, that is what perks are. Some characters are good at specific things and some lack in certain areas because that is not their expertise. They have other things they excel at.
If everybody was balanced the same way it'd be a borefest. Let Woby have her perks. Literally no reason to nerf these things except for just making them worse, and they aren't even that powerful compared to some of the things the other characters get.

[Memetan]

Foraging, retrieving, and deliver don't cost hunger because you don't need big Woby for it.

You can not compare Wormwood carrats to Woby retrieving, they work different, one is spawning 4 minions that retrieve food in your inventory that can be expanded with backpacks, and another is having a single minion that take everything around you in to her inventory, most of the time you will have this skill off, seeing how she is full of nonsense all the time.

Forager works in just a few stuff being a pass for most players already.

And c'mon, you need 4 Skill points to use Deliver.

Also, there are A LOT of perks that you can just have day 1 and doesn't consume any stat: Insulation, immunity to fire damage, speed, lifesteal, hunger bust, planar damage, crafting using less resources, knowing the crafts of the science machine, and a long ETC...

 

[Peasant]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

So in other words you want Woby to be completely unusable? You want her foraging, collecting, and delivering to cost hunger on top of her default natural hunger drain, dashing hunger drain, and mining hunger drain? This would be the equivalent of if Wormwood lost hp every second his carrats were out multiplied by the number on top of the initial cast.

I don't quite understand your logic here…How's adding some hunger consumption make Woby "completely unusable"? Woby has 50 maximum hunger, shadow teleport consumes 5, I reckon adding a hunger consumeption of 2 for the former two skills and 5 for deliver won't be that much of a deal, besides now woby has her own drying racks and little treats, with the new function that allows you feed her when mounting it would be even less difficult to maintain her hunger

[reddocc]

4 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Woby's "retrieving" skill significantly outperforms Wormwood's carrat in every aspect.

Wow great news a character outperforming wormwood's carrats, did you know that a lazy forager also outperforms carrats.

the only way to out perform a lazy forager as wormwood is using more than one carrat(imposible).

Did you know that Maxwell's shadow worker's outperform the durability of gold tools and they cost no hunger drain!.

Did you know that life giving amulet(imposible to craft rare resources and requires tier 2 magic)outperforms the healing of healing salves (expensive and requires science to craft)and it only takes 2 minutes and 20 points of hunger(balanced and fun!)

[Catapult 2.0]

19 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

Wow great news a character outperforming wormwood's carrats, did you know that a lazy forager also outperforms carrats.

the only way to out perform a lazy forager as wormwood is using more than one carrat(imposible).

Did you know that Maxwell's shadow worker's outperform the durability of gold tools and they cost no hunger drain!.

Did you know that life giving amulet(imposible to craft rare resources and requires tier 2 magic)outperforms the healing of healing salves (expensive and requires science to craft)and it only takes 2 minutes and 20 points of hunger(balanced and fun!)

The Lazy Man's Amulet needs to be crafted at the Ancient Tech Table and consumes Nightmare Fuel when used. Maxwell's Summon Servant ability deducts sanity cap and also consumes Nightmare Fuel. I've already clearly explained the cost of Carrat in that post of mine. However, Woby's "retrieving" ability requires no effort or cost at all. You just need to click a button to gain abilities that other characters have to pay a price for.

[reddocc]

Nevermind me I agree with all your opinions.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, YXukun said:

I don't quite understand your logic here…How's adding some hunger consumption make Woby "completely unusable"? Woby has 50 maximum hunger, shadow teleport consumes 5, I reckon adding a hunger consumeption of 2 for the former two skills and 5 for deliver won't be that much of a deal, besides now woby has her own drying racks and little treats, with the new function that allows you feed her when mounting it would be even less difficult to maintain her hunger

You can't include the drying rack or treats in it because then it'd be making the skill intentionally worse just so you require 2 solution skills which is even worse but I already summed it up above.

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

To give further examples using a follower is faster and cheaper than working with Woby, using a lazy forager would be cheaper than relying on Woby if a cost taken out per item grabbed, furry forager just wouldn't be worth it at all with a hunger cost because now your trading meat for plants which is usually always a worse trade, and finally for the delivery skill you may as well just use a piggyback and bundling wraps to save yourself the skill points and meat you'd need to grind.

To further elaborate furry forager is only even a slight consideration because it gives you extra food and saves you time but adding hunger cost on it means your no longer saving time your simply trading meat for doubling plants which is already being pulled from in multiple directions by multiple other abilities including her just existing. Meaning even if you take the skill unless you have a backlog of meat / treats you'll mostly leave the skill off especially in the very early game when it should serve the most purpose for newer players.

To give a Woody example it'd be like if his quick picker gave a increased crafting cost on the things quick picker affects some people might still use it but it'd kill the usability for most. Sure you get extra food profits but Woby is already one of the fastest methods of transportation that skill point could be used elsewhere with more value for the point.

Now let's look at collection Woby adding a hunger cost of 2 means after collecting 5 items she's burned through 1/5 of her max hunger I don't even need to explain why that's a problem do I? Who would use this the lazy forager is right over there with a non perishable fuel source that doesn't require a skill point to obtain.  Not to mention the lazy forager is much better at collecting items than Woby is.

Finally let's look at delivery if there was no locks on it this might be okay but people are already not a fan of the 4 skill point investment and the fact both players have to use a compass for the trade feature now you want to add a hunger drain on it as well?

For most people hard headed is already a instant pass due to how inefficient it is hunger wise so adding that same level of efficiency to her other skills will simply lead to a similar result and I imagine there will instead be threads popping up about lowering Woby's locks to 1 if a change like this goes through as it's not like Walter is starved for better skill options.

Again the main thing not being considered here is just how much hunger Woby would bleed with a change like this and how annoying this would make controlling her.

1 hour ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

The Lazy Man's Amulet needs to be crafted at the Ancient Tech Table and consumes Nightmare Fuel when used. Maxwell's Summon Servant ability deducts sanity cap and also consumes Nightmare Fuel. I've already clearly explained the cost of Carrat in that post of mine. However, Woby's "retrieving" ability requires no effort or cost at all. You just need to click a button to gain abilities that other characters have to pay a price for.

Wormwood's carrats collect faster than Woby due to their numbers.

Maxwell's sanity cap cost is non existent as long as you don't summon over the limit as his sanity is a freely regenerating resource. Maxwell has multiple safe methods of getting nightmare fuel and even his codex umbra is far more efficient and it's resource of choice is extremely accessible and non perishable by default. Most of the same advantages apply to the lazy forager which also is very cheap to maintain.

Woby is outdone in nearly every category.

[Peasant]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You can't include the drying rack or treats in it because then it'd be making the skill intentionally worse just so you require 2 solution skills which is even worse but I already summed it up above.

You count that two solution skills? I think they are QoL skills, drying rack doesn't only drys monster meat but also normal meats which is very convenient, and treats is to solve the already in exist problem of hunger consumption, yet can also do it's work even if there are more hunger problems to come.

Besides, even without these two skills, I still can't see why woby's hunger would be a problem, spiders are like super easy to fight, even pre-skill tree walter can easily destroy a level 1 spider nest alongside all the spiders it spawns which are very common in the very begining of the game. As for later when the spider nest grow to level 2 or 3, you got slingshot and new aoe ammos that can deal with hords of spiders easily, while Wlison can only deal them one by one in the middle of dodging the yellow ones. And please don't count aoe ammoss are solutions skills too, cause aoe ammos have more usages than just killing spiders

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Pedro cc said:

Wow great news a character outperforming wormwood's carrats, did you know that a lazy forager also outperforms carrats.

the only way to out perform a lazy forager as wormwood is using more than one carrat(imposible).

Did you know that Maxwell's shadow worker's outperform the durability of gold tools and they cost no hunger drain!.

Did you know that life giving amulet(imposible to craft rare resources and requires tier 2 magic)outperforms the healing of healing salves (expensive and requires science to craft)and it only takes 2 minutes and 20 points of hunger(balanced and fun!)

I was found that people always has different balance standard with eachother. I guess this is caused by their own interest of playstyles. 

The quiet strange thing for me is that I have seen someone said BoneArmor is overpowered, but being silent toward lunar swindle; I have seen someone said the CureAll effect of wraith wreath is "good", but being silent toward dumplings pies and wraps. 

But for here I've just seen you two have different aspects toward balance. You seems focusing on the results but they focusing on the costs.

I personally think the Maxwell argument make no sense here since most of us would agree that Maxwell is an overpowered character by his low-cost high efficiency powerful Codex Umbra.

[Peasant]

23 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To further elaborate furry forager is only even a slight consideration because it gives you extra food and saves you time but adding hunger cost on it means your no longer saving time your simply trading meat for doubling plants

If it consumes 2 hunger to get 1 use of double plants, then it's like, 1 meat for 9 extra plants? I would call this worthy, even if these are all just berrys it provides far more hunger than 1 mere monster meat