Add some hunger cost to all of Woby's actions as a trade-off/为woby的各项行为都添加一些饱食度消耗作为代价

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Thieta said:

instead of deflecting and bringing up someone irrelevant - focus on the conversation at hand. Manipulation like this ain't appreciated.

That's nice and all but I did bring up multiple points why a change like this was a problem as well as what would need to be done to not immediately render the skill worthless in the eyes of other players it only comes off as purely deflection if you completely ignore everything else I said in this post. It's also funny to bring up manipulation when the various people have come out and admitted in one way or another that manipulation was the end goal.

That being said if the conversation is that Woby's skills are unbalanced then that point needs to be debated using all aspects of the abilities not just looking at small parts and going see she's much better than the others.

If the only point is to address the power of the delivery skill as I've said previously the only positive change needed would be to lower the skill requirement to use perhaps only by 1 skill point then a high hunger cost would probably go over better. But if the goal is to add a cost to all the abilities without consideration for buffing them in some way to compensate I honestly don't see how anyone would think that would go over well considering the inherent faults of Woby's methods and how the solutions were proposed.

[Maxil20]

18 minutes ago, Thieta said:

With woby there is no fear or worry about getting gear back, Take a scenario where you are trapped in a failed ruins rush - You don't have any meat to feed woby to go into big form, You're going to starve to death soon, and you're at one hit from any of the ruins monsters... But rightnow you are in a safe corner that allows you to think... Now if you are wortox you can teleport away... If you still have souls, A resource - Other characters like wigfrid could maybe get some small healing if she had valor, Etc - I can list any character but they all have a COST to their unique ways to get out...

Now enters... Walter... He is in the corner and thinking on what to do... So what does he do? He puts his items in Woby and sends her to base... then waits 5 seconds and does it again... Rinse and repeat until he has emptied his entire inventory - Now the items are sitting back in base OR at another player in a safe known location. Now all walter has to do is die, Go to a resurrection stone, have another player revive him, or meat effigy - Walter gets revived and he has all his items already, Nothing was lost by monsters and he doesn't have to expend time/resources to travel back to the ruins (Hopefully better prepared this time) and get them back...

This is insanely OP and it ruins the gameplay experience of a CORE aspect of don't starve together - ALL FOR NO COST.

I'm a bit confused on how this would be a realistic scenario. Considering the skill needs chests to exist in order for the skill to work, you have to anticipate being in a bad spot (Which, why are you spending resources doing this when you can better prepare yourself to avoid a scenario like that in the first place?) and using the skill via building a bunch of chests and having an effigy/touch stone (which you would need to readily prepare for the latter, touch stones are normally in dark spots!) ready to go in the event you do die... which somewhat defeats the point of a ruins rush?

In addition, you omitted Winona and Wanda, 2 characters that are exceptional at this type of thing already. Winona can cart thousands of stacks via a teletransport system (Even just one helps considerably!), and Wanda effectively has infinite travel once you get the backtrek watches and can warp across shards. I understand at least latter isn't realistic for a ruins rush, but also neither is exactly the scenario you bring up, and these rapidly become available later on.

[YouKnowWho142]

19 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Deflection and manipulation.

 

Deflection and manipulation.

Literally all you've done in the forums is call people liars and manipulators. That behavior is not okay.

[Thieta]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That's nice and all but I did bring up multiple points why a change like this was a problem as well as what would need to be done to not immediately render the skill worthless in the eyes of other players it only comes off as purely deflection if you completely ignore everything else I said in this post. It's also funny to bring up manipulation when the various people have come out and admitted in one way or another that manipulation was the end goal.

That being said if the conversation is that Woby's skills are unbalanced then that point needs to be debated using all aspects of the abilities not just looking at small parts and going see she's much better than the others.

If the only point is to address the power of the delivery skill as I've said previously the only positive change needed would be to lower the skill requirement to use perhaps only by 1 skill point then a high hunger cost would probably go over better. But if the goal is to add a cost to all the abilities without consideration for buffing them in some way to compensate I honestly don't see how anyone would think that would go over well considering the inherent faults of Woby's methods and how the solutions were proposed.

Don't reply to me if you haven't read my post.

 

6 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

I'm a bit confused on how this would be a realistic scenario. Considering the skill needs chests to exist in order for the skill to work, you have to anticipate being in a bad spot (Which, why are you spending resources doing this when you can better prepare yourself to avoid a scenario like that in the first place?) and using the skill via building a bunch of chests and having an effigy/touch stone (which you would need to readily prepare for the latter, touch stones are normally in dark spots!) ready to go in the event you do die... which somewhat defeats the point of a ruins rush?

In addition, you omitted Winona and Wanda, 2 characters that are exceptional at this type of thing already. Winona can cart thousands of stacks via a teletransport system (Even just one helps considerably!), and Wanda effectively has infinite travel once you get the backtrek watches and can warp across shards. I understand at least latter isn't realistic for a ruins rush, but also neither is exactly the scenario you bring up, and these rapidly become available later on.

to answer this in two parts - Are you just not gonna build chests at a base or something? Do you not base and just do a nomad playstyle? Saying that you would have no chests is just absurdity.

Second part - I am glad you brought up winona and Wanda! I was explicitly waiting for someone to bring them up... Yeah you are right, They have both of that - Which is comparable to woby... But you forget to mention! They both have a COST to doing that - Which is exactly what I am saying in my post - Walter/Woby has no cost to their ability, Which allows them to ignore a core aspect of the game from day 1! That is the problem. Giving woby a hunger cost will essentially become irrelevant to players who have sufficient planning.

7 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Literally all you've done in the forums is call people liars and manipulators. That behavior is not okay.

Then you haven't been reading my posts - I've done far more than that, This is again another attempt at you by trying to undermine someone else. Anyway - You came in with an irrelevant post saying 

"Aren’t you a part of the group that constantly posts about how weak Wendy is? Why do you want other characters to be weaker if you wouldn’t want Wendy to be weaker?"

You did that specifically to try and undermine their point, There is no other reason to bring this up in this conversation - You provided nothing of value or even a comment before you made that - It was by, All intents, your way of targetting that person and attempting to invalidate their opinion, Deflecting away from the current issue at hand (Walter) and bringing up a conversation about them and wendy... It also got someone else responding negatively because of that too. This is a forum for us to discuss beneficial and helpful ideas/changes for the game - Not to witch-hunt or attack others. I will call this out this kind of behavior EVERYTIME I see it, No matter who it is from.

Also instead of looking towards yourself for what you are doing, You instead... Again... Deflect by trying to put the focus onto me instead of acknowledging your own behavior... Which is deflection... and that is a form of manipulation.

If you have a problem with me calling you what you are, Then you should focus on correcting yourself - If you have trouble acknowledging your own faults then there is professional help, I suggest you seek it.

Here is a definition of Deflection in psychology.
"Deflection is often used in arguments as a way to shift focus away from oneself and onto another person or issue. People commonly divert the pressure from themselves by changing the subject, pointing out someone else's flaws or presenting unrelated information to distract from the main issue at hand."

[Maxil20]

4 minutes ago, Thieta said:

to answer this in two parts - Are you just not gonna build chests at a base or something? Do you not base and just do a nomad playstyle? Saying that you would have no chests is just absurdity.

But you mentioned you are Ruins Rushing. Most players, especially that early on, are not going to make a base (much less chests) chests, and doubly so in the caves. You're going to eventually have those, but not that early in a scenario where you are rushing the ruins (and by the time you can, you usually should have gear in order to avoid incidents like those).

Yes, you can do it that early, but it's not very practical. It would be better off taking that effort and getting better gear/prep to not only clear more ruins, but to keep yourself save so you avoid an incident like that occurring in the first place.
 

8 minutes ago, Thieta said:

Second part - I am glad you brought up winona and Wanda! I was explicitly waiting for someone to bring them up... Yeah you are right, They have both of that - Which is comparable to woby... But you forget to mention! They both have a COST to doing that - Which is exactly what I am saying in my post - Walter/Woby has no cost to their ability, Which allows them to ignore a core aspect of the game from day 1! That is the problem. Giving woby a hunger cost will essentially become irrelevant to players who have sufficient planning.

Winona/Wanda's costs are very minimal in exchange for the immense payoff. All Winona needs for a one way telebrella setup to use it is a use of a portasol you can charge with any station and 1 nitre to fuel the generator you used, and you can bring back as many items as you could want. Wanda's are more upfront, but once the setup is set is practically free.

And again, you're not going to usually have a bunch of chests to store that many items you might want to carry around with you that early on, especially when you'll need to build 2 separate setups in the surface and the caves for it. You'll eventually have one later on, but the other warpers will have their setups planned out as well to compete.

[Chewabacca]

21 minutes ago, Thieta said:

instead of deflecting and bringing up someone irrelevant - focus on the conversation at hand. Manipulation like this ain't appreciated.

 

As it stands, Woby has gotten insanely strong - Both for new players and veteran players, While this is extremely good! it also ends up trivializing some of the more difficult aspects of don't starve together.

Don't starve together is - By all means - A more hardcore survival game, You lose all your items on death and there are entities that steal said items, etc.
Having woby allows you to explore a dangerous area and then immediately and very easily get whatever you want from it without any kind of cost... This is simply just bad game design, It gets rid of a core mechanic of don't starve together and makes it completely avoidable without any cost from the player except a few skill points... It's simply busted.

With woby there is no fear or worry about getting gear back, Take a scenario where you are trapped in a failed ruins rush - You don't have any meat to feed woby to go into big form, You're going to starve to death soon, and you're at one hit from any of the ruins monsters... But rightnow you are in a safe corner that allows you to think... Now if you are wortox you can teleport away... If you still have souls, A resource - Other characters like wigfrid could maybe get some small healing if she had valor, Etc - I can list any character but they all have a COST to their unique ways to get out...

Now enters... Walter... He is in the corner and thinking on what to do... So what does he do? He puts his items in Woby and sends her to base... then waits 5 seconds and does it again... Rinse and repeat until he has emptied his entire inventory - Now the items are sitting back in base OR at another player in a safe known location. Now all walter has to do is die, Go to a resurrection stone, have another player revive him, or meat effigy - Walter gets revived and he has all his items already, Nothing was lost by monsters and he doesn't have to expend time/resources to travel back to the ruins (Hopefully better prepared this time) and get them back...

This is insanely OP and it ruins the gameplay experience of a CORE aspect of don't starve together - ALL FOR NO COST.

Woby needs to have a limit so that way, Walter can only send back 1 pack of items to base - Either an extremely long cooldown or an immense hunger cost, Woby should take a solid 70% of hunger to TRAVEL ANYWHERE ON THE MAP and store whatever items you have - This forces walter to expend resources for this kind of buff and prevents it from being absurdly broken, Aslong as he has prepared resources he can save his items (Woby snacks are very easy to get and this puts him at wortox levels of safety/escape aslong as he prepares) however this also punishes players who don't prepare and store snacks, Can cost greedy players everything (Or almost everything), and fleshes out very nicely with her kit.

Deflection and manipulation.

 

Deflection and manipulation.

 

Very agreed

 

Just cause a character was bad previously is not a valid reason for them to be genuinely gamebreaking. Noone should be able to "Shine" by ignoring core aspects of the game...

 

This is all making it seem unnecessarily complicated when the reality is it's not even tedious to do... "making sure woby has the items you want to send to them in her" made me laugh ngl lol,

 

unhelpful.

In the scenario you propose, this Walter has gone to the trouble of building at least 1 empty chest for Woby to store his stuff in in the case that he can't come back alive. That automatically makes it not a "no cost" solution. Also, is this Walter incapable of taking the very simple prep step of making a life-giving amulet, which would both revive him and let him get all of his inventory back on the spot? Are life-giving amulets desperately overpowered and in need of an extra cost, in your opinion?

70% of Woby's hunger is insane. At her absolute max hunger, that would slow her to a crawl and make her shrink back in less than a day. Nobody would ever pick this skill if it were that high.  Yes, Woby treats are easy to stockpile. As I've said several times, I wouldn't mind if the conversion was 1 jerky:1 treat. But any issues you have with Woby's food becoming more available because of that skill should be addressed by adjustments to that skill, not by assuming every Walter player will take it and adjusting the hunger costs for everything Woby can do. And Woby's hunger has a passive drain of -20/day, which translates to 1 monster meat/treat per day to stay topped off. It is not a static number. With the new update, Woby also has a steady drain while sprinting and dashing (don't have the numbers offhand but it's definitely been noticeable and has already caused me to ration out how often I dash, use Woby for chopping/mining). 

Here is the most likely result of the adjustments you're proposing: a large number of the Walter players who were moving away from their beefalo towards Woby will look at that gargantuan hunger cost and go "huh, looks like we can only really effectively use these skills if we're not using Woby's strongest advantages against beefalo" and they'll climb back on their tanky, 1000-HP beefalo that eliminate most of Walter's downsides. This is not the scenario I would like to see.

And for what? How does an insight-costly skill that lets you send items to your friends or base utterly break the game? The scenario you come up with that lets Walter gain a large gameplay advantage is, as I've mentioned, pretty niche and weird. And even it imposes the cost of prep time on Walter.

[goblinball]

I understand caring about balance but I think you guys need to take a step back.

Dont ask yourself “is this balanced?” Instead, ask yourself “is this fun?” If the answer is yes, then why nerf it?

I don’t see how nerfing woby’s skills would make Walter any more fun to play. Walter is definitely more powerful now, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

[Thieta]

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

But you mentioned you are Ruins Rushing. Most players, especially that early on, are not going to make a base (much less chests) chests, and doubly so in the caves. You're going to eventually have those, but not that early in a scenario where you are rushing the ruins (and by the time you can, you usually should have gear in order to avoid incidents like those).

Yes, you can do it that early, but it's not very practical. It would be better off taking that effort and getting better gear/prep to not only clear more ruins, but to keep yourself save so you avoid an incident like that occurring in the first place.

It was an example - I get what you are saying but I was just putting in a situation where someone would be put in an easy and relatable spot (Atleast to me) where woby's ability can be really gamebreaking. It could be out at sea when you have no food and about to starve to death, etc. I'd rather not argue on the most small things for it.
Besides it's all irrelevant when to ruins rush you gonna be making a science/alchemy machine and can just make a chest - Even just to have a backup for woby - is insanely easy and requires no setup... again nitpicking on the small stuff is just... yeah.

 

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

As I've said several times, I wouldn't mind if the conversion was 1 jerky:1 treat. But any issues you have with Woby's food becoming more available because of that skill should be addressed by adjustments to that skill, not by assuming every Walter player will take it and adjusting the hunger costs for everything Woby can do.

To clarify, I never said I have any problems with that skill "Woby treats" or anything related to it - It's perfectly fine imo and a great skill to have, I brought it up as a way to showcase how woby players can easily stockpile a "cost" for woby's travelling that essentially makes her travelling cost irrelevant to the later games - Same way how wortox can have 5 jars of souls, etc. Later in the game the "Costs" reach a point that they don't matter, Woby treats were meant to showcase that - You assuming I have a problem with woby treats is a very far leap cause nothing I said brought that up.

 

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

Here is the most likely result of the adjustments you're proposing: a large number of the Walter players who were moving away from their beefalo towards Woby will look at that gargantuan hunger cost and go "huh, looks like we can only really effectively use these skills if we're not using Woby's strongest advantages against beefalo" and they'll climb back on their tanky, 1000-HP beefalo that eliminate most of Walter's downsides. This is not the scenario I would like to see.

Me saying that woby should have either a time restriction (Once every 15 minutes or smth) or have a hunger drain of 70% on *A single overpowered skill* Will cause all of that? No, I highly doubt it. It may make some of the newer players not like to use the skill, Sure, But a lot of the veteran and even casual players will realize what I said above - Once you get going the food cost becomes essentially irrelevant.

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

And for what? How does an insight-costly skill that lets you send items to your friends or base utterly break the game? The scenario you come up with that lets Walter gain a large gameplay advantage is, as I've mentioned, pretty niche and weird. And even it imposes the cost of prep time on Walter.

It's not niche or weird - put walter in a situation where trying to escape or making it back to a safe spot is extremely hard or impossible and the outcome is the same everytime. Walter is stuck at sea, On the moon island with no food and a bunch of gestalts/spiders in between him and his boat/food, stuck behind a wall hiding from monkeys in nightmare phase, Literally whatever - A character in a "Risky" situation where they have the time to consider their options (Starve to death, Go out and risk running past the mobs, Etc) it's all the same... And no walter has no kind of prep time, He has to do nothing beforehand to gain access to this - There is no food cost so it is available ALL the time, There are no restrictions, Cost, Prep, Nothing really. I don't consider making 1-2 chests requiring as much prep time as wanda making her teleport clock, or charlie's sister making her teleportbrella - Those have actual prep time and cannot be made LITERALLY DAY 1, Unlike walters... Plus if you play multiplayer there is no need for a chest, Just send woby to a player - So no prep time at all.

 

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

All Winona needs for a one way telebrella setup to use it is a use of a portasol you can charge with any station and 1 nitre to fuel the generator you used, and you can bring back as many items as you could want. Wanda's are more upfront, but once the setup is set is practically free.

"But once the setup is set" - Winona needs to run around and find advanced cache boxes, Which have a low chance to appear - After making her goggles... To find an item that requires a minigame and time to go out and find cause RNG tbh, Not once but TWICE, Then after that has to use a decent amount of resources to make the portasol and teleport station... and also power it using a generator... which also takes more stuff to power the longer the distance travelled...
So let's look at this here and break it down - Winona needs to go out of her way to make these goggles using gold and goggles lol, Then go out of her way to suffer RNG and find the chests - Taking away time in a time limited game btw - Then after she gets the rare spawn, Not once but twice, She can go through and uses even more resources to make the teleport station... Then uses even more resources to make the portasol... And to top it all off she has to make a generator that she has to constantly use resources to refill in order to continue using this teleport feature - Which although is extremely powerful, Has a bunch of cost to setup...

Meanwhile... In comparison... Walter has to do nothing different, Doesn't have to play differently (Winona cache search), Suffers no setup like a "Woby whistle" consumable to use (Portasol/Teleportal), Has no consistent resource drain (Generators for winona), and only has to make a chest or two (Wood in comparison to.... Grass, Webs, Lots of gold, Some other stuff Idk of the top of my head), Or in the case of multiplayer - Quite literally has to do nothing at all... And he has basically a 6 slot transport, Available from day one... that has a what? 5-10 second cooldown?

If you truly think winona/Wanda cost/setup is comparable to walter then... there's no cure.

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

I understand caring about balance but I think you guys need to take a step back.

Dont ask yourself “is this balanced?” Instead, ask yourself “is this fun?” If the answer is yes, then why nerf it?

I don’t see how nerfing woby’s skills would make Walter any more fun to play. Walter is definitely more powerful now, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

What exactly about woby being able to transport items across the map for free is fun? - It's not a fun mechanic, It is a gamebreakingly busted mechanic.

I'm all for adding stuff to the game that is fun like winona's minigames, Etc - However you need to always ask "is this balanced"

This excuse that "Walter was weak but now he is more powerful and that's fine" is an extremely bad mindset to have - Just cause a character was weak before is not an excuse for them to have a skill that allows them to trivialize a core aspect of the game from day 1 with absolutely 0 cost in any way shape or form... Woby being able to transport stuff across the entire map for no cost, Is not fun - It just allows you to trivialize parts of the game - Playing walter you can get a meat effigy/find a ressurection stone - go through a risky area to get some items you want - Load all your gear on woby and send him back - Then die and come back with meat effigy or resurrections stone (no cost) which literally bypasses core parts of the game with no risk/cost/time sink/setup.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Thieta said:

Don't reply to me if you haven't read my post.

I read your post and replied you deliberately keep not reading mine that's your problem not mine. But if you really want me to talk about what you said specifically.

2 hours ago, Thieta said:

With woby there is no fear or worry about getting gear back, Take a scenario where you are trapped in a failed ruins rush - You don't have any meat to feed woby to go into big form, You're going to starve to death soon, and you're at one hit from any of the ruins monsters... But rightnow you are in a safe corner that allows you to think... Now if you are wortox you can teleport away... If you still have souls, A resource - Other characters like wigfrid could maybe get some small healing if she had valor, Etc - I can list any character but they all have a COST to their unique ways to get out...

Now enters... Walter... He is in the corner and thinking on what to do... So what does he do? He puts his items in Woby and sends her to base... then waits 5 seconds and does it again... Rinse and repeat until he has emptied his entire inventory - Now the items are sitting back in base OR at another player in a safe known location. Now all walter has to do is die, Go to a resurrection stone, have another player revive him, or meat effigy - Walter gets revived and he has all his items already, Nothing was lost by monsters and he doesn't have to expend time/resources to travel back to the ruins (Hopefully better prepared this time) and get them back...

Maxwell's hat does the same thing with another person and in Walter's case the cost would be building several chests in the caves to pull something like this off assuming another player isn't assisting him but even if they were at that point why not just bring him some food or revives? Even then Woby is fast there's basically no chance this happens unless it's a very inexperienced player as food is literally all over the entrance of the ruins. But hey he could be Winona and just die keeping all her items and teleporting back from the entrance instead.

To further drive the point home Walter can't control the state of the chests he makes in a multiplayer server so if people fill them up he's just out of luck unlike maxwell who can remotely empty his chest if people fill it with stuff he doesn't want. Though apparently asking for a compromise if a cost was implemented just is too much huh?

[Debruh]

2 hours ago, Thieta said:

Deflection and manipulation

 

On 2/16/2025 at 5:14 PM, Debruh said:

Her delivery system is locked behind a three point lock, then the skill itself needing one.

Her other skills are all also their own stuff that needs insight. Which in a tree like Walter's, is actually valuable.

Wormwood can summon multiple carrats. And Wickerbottom's book requires sanity, because it instantly regrows that whatever. Unlike Walter who still needs to wait, he just gets two times the forage. Nowhere near as good as Wicker. I could go on more, but others already said everything, including the points above.

The forage and retrieve skills are mainly early game. Where you don't have much monster meat. Due to sources of it usually not being near spawn. So this would be a pretty big nerf.