Yes, we do need to nerf Wendy's beefalo.

[RussoDaFederal]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Sorry? The 1.4*1.6 was an argument of Vex.

I don't follow. Who is that someone? Can you point out where that argument was made and why they are wrong? I didn't see anything like that in this post.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I don't follow. Who is that someone? Can you point out where that argument was made and why they are wrong? I didn't see anything like that in this post.

1.4*1.6=2.24

Cursed Vex should be 1.3*1.6

You knew it, it's 2.08

[RussoDaFederal]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

1.4*1.6=2.24

Cursed Vex should be 1.3*1.6

You knew it, it's 2.08

Right, 2.24 is wrong but that's a different topic. Why are you quoting other topics? How is this relevant to the current one?

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Right, 2.24 is wrong but that's a different topic. Why are you quoting other topics? How is this relevant to the current one?

Since all of these topics were happened during a adjacent period and many of them "

(such like current one) is just a simple"counter argument" toward eachothers.

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, mkemal23 said:

Because thematicaly it makes perfect sense?

I honestly don't think there is any point in trying to discuss flavor. It's cute, but gameplay should always be above flavor. And this flavor just makes the game play worse and makes Beefalo optimal for some characters and mostly useless for others. It doesn't sound like a good thing for the game.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

makes Beefalo optimal for some characters and mostly useless for others. It doesn't sound like a good thing for the game.

Tbh even I play Woodie I would like to tame a beefalo for using the Shadow Saddle for daily convenience. I don't think it's "mostly useless for others"

[Arepantera]

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

This is a completely subjective argument. It holds just as much water as literally the exact opposite of every claim made here. 

It's more of a common sense argument than a subjective argument. When someone says that the vex and beefalo interaction looks like a bug or an oversight, they're using very reasonable and easy to follow logic. When you try to defend the interaction you jump through hoops and do really strange mental gymnastic to somewhat justify it, which it doesn't.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

Nope. Claiming something is evidence is not the same as claiming something is identical. Appeal to what you perceive as common sense is just "agree with me or else". It holds no more water than anyone else claiming that common sense supports their argument. If they didn't happen simultaneously, then what's the time gap between the two?

"Claiming something is identical" What are you even talking about?
And it's not just what I perceive as common sense, it's what a lot of people perceive as common sense, when you see something that seems out of place and report it as a bug, that's common sense being used. It's not that think you're claiming it to be. I think you're realizing that your claims are starting to make less common sense which is why you're shifting the conversation towards something else.
And it didn't happen simultaneously, that implies that it happened in the same patch that voidwalking was removed.
iirc Void walking was removed in patch 631099, the same patch that added bridges
The new tentacle pillar was added in patch 632435

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

So you weren't trying to make a point. You just randomly brought up an observation about other people in the middle of the discussion. 

No. This is the middle of the discussion, what I said back then was in my first post. It would be a random commentary at the start of the discussion.

 

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

First, the reaper outshines all of those weapons in terms of damage and cost, so this argument makes no sense.

Second, this argument can be applied in the exact same way to Beefalo. "You might want to use dark sword against most enemies" = "You might want to use beefalo against most enemies".  There are many situations where you don't want to be fighting on the Beefalo.

Third, there is no variety between glass cutter, dark sword and hambat combat. The only difference between those weapons is damage and aesthetics. A fight using any of these weapons plays out identical. With beefalo there are functional differences that increase the things you have to deal with making it actually unique.

The reaper is a post rift weapon that needs to be combined with a headgear item to be able to outdamage those weapons, so your comparison doesn't make sense.

Second, no, the argument stands, because rarely do you not want to fight on a beefalo. The only times where you don't want to fight on a beefalos are when the enemy can dismount you and even then it doesn't matter that much because your extra speed makes it easier to avoid all attacks. While on foot you have a variety of weapons to choose from, like Dark swords, clubs, planar weapons, wendy players rarely get off the befalo.

Not realliy either. Dark swords make you insane faster, glass cutters are more cost effective towards shadows, hambats are cost effective in general at the cost of damage. There are even more weapons that have special effects that make on foot combat have more variety than abusing a bug with a beefalo.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

So let me get this straight. You believe the problem with beefalo is that they make everyone equal and your solution to this problem is to make the one character who isn't equal when she uses beefalo the same as everyone else.

This also fails to understand what "unique gameplay is". Unique gameplay isn't playing the game identical to the way Wilson does except with different damage numbers. Unique gameplay is engaging with mechanics that the default playstyle doesn't. Using a weapon that deals more or less damage isn't unique for the same reason Wolfgang dealing more damage isn't unique. Using a weapon that requires you to work around its unique downsides does. That's why fighting on a beefalo is actually unique gameplay vs combat using weapons that deal slightly different damage.

No argument for Wendy being "overtuned" it's just assumed out of no where.

The funny thing is that earlier you said that there is no variety between DS, GS and HB, they're identical and the only difference is damage and aesthetics. Meaning that you actually don't believe in what you just said by contradicting it.
I will engage with this argument nonetheless.

The one character who isn't equal? Wendy plays the same as everyone on beefalos, the only difference is that she has bigger damage numbers.

And using a beefalo isn't unique gameplay, everyone can use them, some characters have interesting gimmicks with them, but that's it. Most people tame beefalos because they think they're op, because they want to quickly move heavy objects, or some other personal reason but very rarely because they're "actually unique gameplay", which they aren't.

 

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

This defeats your argument. If the people you're talking to think that 50 to 68 damage per hit is "really good damage" when they can be hitting for 88+ damage on foot, then the Beefalo doing too much damage isn't the issue. They clearly aren't using it because they think it's an OP best weapon.

It doesn't, you're making a weird assumption out of nowhere. It's good damage, it's not the best, but it's good specially when it's free damage, a weapon that never breaks, can't be taken out of your hands, won't slip, won't get stale, etc. You're making really weird assumptions out of nowhere, you're either not understanding the argument or trying to make strawmans and fight against your own arguments.
 

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

So the only incentives are saving resources that no one ever runs out of? Not being punished for Abby's death removes the one downside of Wendy's character making her generic.

And if these really are your concerns, then changing the Beefalo damage wouldn't do anything. You're clearly not using Beefalo because you think they do the most damage. You're using them because you want to save resources. 

For those who actually want to max out Wendy's damage, there is no incentive to tame an ornery beefalo when all it does is save you resources that you'll never run out of at the cost of much more dangerous boss fights and a mount that's significantly slower and requires you to feed it every time you want to go somewhere.

Yeah, saving on resources that no one ever runs out of, that's it. Also she becomes generic+ the moment she mounts a beefalo, generic, no downsides, only benefits.

And, no. I don't think they do the most damage, this is the strawman you've made because you're making a strawman because you can't argue against this and need to change my argument to fight against it, or because you didn't read it properly. Changing the interaction would clearly change the way wendy players play the game. I'm clearly using beefalos, I'd bet that most of us are doing it, you're making another weird assumption out of me even tho earlier I said that like most people I enjoy the interaction and I don't want it gone, I'm just saying that even tho I like it, I can be sincere enough to admit that it is most likely a bug or an oversight. You're weirdly defensive about this, I think I understand why. You love Wendy's interactions with the beefalo and you might feel personally attacked when I say this stuff about the interaction. That's fine, I don't think it'll get fixed because it would cause an outrage, but you should start being more honest with yourself and others about this type of stuff instead of just arguing in favor of the stuff you like because you don't want it gone.
 

[AliceShiki]

10 hours ago, Steorra said:

Tbh even I play Woodie I would like to tame a beefalo for using the Shadow Saddle for daily convenience. I don't think it's "mostly useless for others"

I was talking about characters like Wigfrid or Wolfgang for the "Mostly Useless" category, not the characters with x1 damage multiplier. Characters with x1 multiplier can already benefit plenty from Beefalo.

Right now Beefalo is optimal for characters with below x1 multiplier, and mostly useless for characters with above x1 multiplier. This is what I would like changed. If Beefalo followed character damage multiplier, it would be useful for everyone, but wouldn't be optimal for anyone.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I was talking about characters like Wigfrid or Wolfgang for the "Mostly Useless" category, not the characters with x1 damage multiplier. Characters with x1 multiplier can already benefit plenty from Beefalo.

Right now Beefalo is optimal for characters with below x1 multiplier, and mostly useless for characters with above x1 multiplier. This is what I would like changed. If Beefalo followed character damage multiplier, it would be useful for everyone, but wouldn't be optimal for anyone.

Tbh, I could understand that beefalo has been buffed by Vex since Vex is more like a debuff for making target take extra damage.

But I'm confused if a character riding on beefalo then beefalo become weaker or stronger. This is strange.

Wigfrid should have other beefalo bonus from her beefalo branch skills.

Wolfgang should never have any advantage on beefalo since that's his design. Most of his feature is just telling us "this guy is strong as beefalo"

[AliceShiki]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

But I'm confused if a character riding on beefalo then beefalo become weaker or stronger. This is strange.

Gameplay is more important than Flavor. That's all there is to it.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Gameplay is more important than Flavor. That's all there is to it.

There's a way to have both of them. Just rework Wigfrid tree.

Wolfgang need no Beefalo, again. He should not and never should not use Beefalo whether because of flavor or because of balance.

[aidancode]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Wendy having a specific playstyle that's really good for her. The same way it's not really a problem that Wanda heavily incentivizes a ruins rush, or Wurt incentivizes focusing on base building. Wendy's beefalo buff, in my opinion, is fun. Frankly, it's kinda the main redeeming feature of the character, that she has the beefalo stuff going for her. If EVERY character were to be like this, heavily incentivizing a beefalo, that'd be a problem. But it's just Wendy. If you want a Wendy-like experience, work with Bernie and Willow's skill tree. Or choose a more dedicated follower character. Or, hell, just use Wendy and don't tame a beefalo. If it doesn't take away from the casual experience and it adds some interesting strategy to bosses, why remove it?

Like it really sounds like the only problem you're having is that it's a balance issue but like... this is modern day DST. If balance was the concern Wendy is NOT the place you gotta start. It's not like you can just carelessly use a beefalo and Abigail in a bossfight and always win.

[Steorra]

28 minutes ago, aidancode said:

It's not like you can just carelessly use a beefalo and Abigail in a bossfight and always win.

I guess the problem is, they could simply see others win a boss fighting by using Beefalo Wendy. 

They won't care if ther are powerful or not, they won't care how high skill needed for the powerful result. They only care "Why you so powerful? it's unfair!"

[Lardee]

3 hours ago, arepana said:

It's more of a common sense argument than a subjective argument. When someone says that the vex and beefalo interaction looks like a bug or an oversight, they're using very reasonable and easy to follow logic. When you try to defend the interaction you jump through hoops and do really strange mental gymnastic to somewhat justify it, which it doesn't.

Common sense is subjective. What one person considers common sense another person considers insane. The rest of this is just your subjective characterization which holds no more water than anyone else's interpretation.

3 hours ago, arepana said:

"Claiming something is identical" What are you even talking about?
And it's not just what I perceive as common sense, it's what a lot of people perceive as common sense, when you see something that seems out of place and report it as a bug, that's common sense being used. It's not that think you're claiming it to be. I think you're realizing that your claims are starting to make less common sense which is why you're shifting the conversation towards something else.
And it didn't happen simultaneously, that implies that it happened in the same patch that voidwalking was removed.
iirc Void walking was removed in patch 631099, the same patch that added bridges
The new tentacle pillar was added in patch 632435

So we're moving the goalpost from "common sense" to "what I believe a lot of people perceive as common sense" which ultimately is also subjective and therefore holds no more water than the alternative proposition. So 9 days apart. Seems like they were already working on removing tentacle RNG before they released the update considering they mentioned that during their developer stream.

3 hours ago, arepana said:

No. This is the middle of the discussion, what I said back then was in my first post. It would be a random commentary at the start of the discussion.
 

If you're arguing against a point that you admit I never made, then it's either completely random or a strawman.

3 hours ago, arepana said:

The reaper is a post rift weapon that needs to be combined with a headgear item to be able to outdamage those weapons, so your comparison doesn't make sense.

This would be you conceding the argument.  Unless you want to argue that post rift weapons don't exist, the Shadow Reaper + Void Cowl outclasses all the other weapons you mentioned which, according to your own argument, makes it "the only viable way of playing". 

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

Second, no, the argument stands, because rarely do you not want to fight on a beefalo. The only times where you don't want to fight on a beefalos are when the enemy can dismount you and even then it doesn't matter that much because your extra speed makes it easier to avoid all attacks. While on foot you have a variety of weapons to choose from, like Dark swords, clubs, planar weapons, wendy players rarely get off the befalo.

This point was already addressed in the post you replied to. If it's okay to do most of your fighting with a dark sword (or any melee weapon) then by that logic it's okay to do most of your fighting with the beefalo. 

The rest of your post shows you don't know anything about fighting with a beefalo. An Ornery Beefalo with the war saddle is slower than the default player using a walking cane and a magi. Even if it wasn't, getting knocked off is often a one-hit kill because many of these attacks instantly aggro your beefalo making you unable to mount. That's not something that "doesn't matter much because it's easier to avoid attacks". You just don't fight some enemies on the beefalo.

Next, you can't use utility items while mounted which means there's a big incentive not to fighting things like Toadstool or Crab King on a beefalo.

Next, your Beefalo only has 1,000 HP and are much harder to heal than on foot which is a big incentive not to fight bosses like Bee Queen or ones that can one-shot you like Celestial Champion on them. 

You also get dismounted and incapacitated if you're put to sleep or stunned which is almost guaranteed to kill on your beefalo against things like Celestial Champion or Fuelweaver.

Anyone who has actually used beefalo for things other than day to day hound combat knows these things.

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

Not realliy either. Dark swords make you insane faster, glass cutters are more cost effective towards shadows, hambats are cost effective in general at the cost of damage. There are even more weapons that have special effects that make on foot combat have more variety than abusing a bug with a beefalo.
 

That's purely resource management. Literally none of that changes how you fight. Whether you're using dark swords, glass cutters or hambats, you fight everything the exact same way.  With Beefalo, you have to factor in its weaknesses which actually changes the way you approach some fights. 

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

The funny thing is that earlier you said that there is no variety between DS, GS and HB, they're identical and the only difference is damage and aesthetics. Meaning that you actually don't believe in what you just said by contradicting it.
I will engage with this argument nonetheless.

I didn't say that Beefalo combat with Wendy is functionally different than Beefalo combat with any other character. I'm using your logic which is that different numbers make things generic. My argument the entire time is that Wendy's extra damage INCENTIVIZES her to use Beefalo for combat which makes her unique since every other character doesn't have this incentive due to them being able to outdamage the beefalo on foot.

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

The one character who isn't equal? Wendy plays the same as everyone on beefalos, the only difference is that she has bigger damage numbers.

And using a beefalo isn't unique gameplay, everyone can use them, some characters have interesting gimmicks with them, but that's it. Most people tame beefalos because they think they're op, because they want to quickly move heavy objects, or some other personal reason but very rarely because they're "actually unique gameplay", which they aren't.

I didn't say she uses Beefalo differently. The bigger damage numbers are the incentive to use them. 

No one said that if character A uses a beefalo, that their gameplay is unique to character B if character B also uses a beefalo. The claim was that using beefalo as a combat option is unique relative to the other non-beefalo combat options. The difference between using a hambat and a beefalo for combat is far greater than the difference between using a hambat and a dark sword.  

No one claimed that people choose to play beefalo because they want to play the game in a unique way. 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

It doesn't, you're making a weird assumption out of nowhere. It's good damage, it's not the best, but it's good specially when it's free damage, a weapon that never breaks, can't be taken out of your hands, won't slip, won't get stale, etc. You're making really weird assumptions out of nowhere, you're either not understanding the argument or trying to make strawmans and fight against your own arguments.
 

It absolutely destroys your argument. You claimed that Wendy's special interaction with beefalo gives her her highest damage and should be removed because "best = the only way to play". You responded to my point about how other characters have no incentive to tame an ornery beefalo by stating that most of the people you know tame ornery beefalo despite there being way stronger damage options.  That proves that removing Wendy's interaction wouldn't change anything. The people in your circle aren't taming ornery beefalo because they want to maximize their damage. They're taming them to save resources.

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

Yeah, saving on resources that no one ever runs out of, that's it. Also she becomes generic+ the moment she mounts a beefalo, generic, no downsides, only benefits.

Yes that is it. Already debunked the argument that beefalo are generic relative to melee gameplay. It is objectively untrue that beefalo have no downsides. It's also untrue that they remove Wendy's downsides. They are a weapon that isn't affected by Wendy's downside. They do not remove it.

 

3 hours ago, arepana said:

And, no. I don't think they do the most damage, this is the strawman you've made because you're making a strawman because you can't argue against this and need to change my argument to fight against it, or because you didn't read it properly. Changing the interaction would clearly change the way wendy players play the game. I'm clearly using beefalos, I'd bet that most of us are doing it, you're making another weird assumption out of me even tho earlier I said that like most people I enjoy the interaction and I don't want it gone, I'm just saying that even tho I like it, I can be sincere enough to admit that it is most likely a bug or an oversight. You're weirdly defensive about this, I think I understand why. You love Wendy's interactions with the beefalo and you might feel personally attacked when I say this stuff about the interaction. That's fine, I don't think it'll get fixed because it would cause an outrage, but you should start being more honest with yourself and others about this type of stuff instead of just arguing in favor of the stuff you like because you don't want it gone.
 

You already defeated this argument when you said the players that you knew pick Ornery even without the extra damage. Therefore, according to you, damage isn't the reason people use ornery instead of weapons which in turn means removing the extra damage from Wendy players wouldn't do anything. 

Based on your earlier responses, you're either being disingenuous or the situations you've used beefalo for combat in are very limited.

The rest of this is just projection. 

[Thieta]

pick up your crown, king

[Gashzer]

Well klei, seems like you need to choose between thematic accuracy for Wendy or keeping the youtube speed runners happy 

I guess the youtubers have already won...

Oh well time to lurk again.

[AliceShiki]

8 hours ago, aidancode said:

If EVERY character were to be like this, heavily incentivizing a beefalo, that'd be a problem.

Well, nobody is asking for every character to get their damage multiplied by x1.33, like Wendy has, by jumping on a Beefalo.

Gotta say it would be kinda funny if Wolfgang's damage was multiplied by x1.33 on top of his x2 damage multiplier if he got on a Beefalo though. That would be pretty hilarious... Obvious bad idea, of course, but it would be funny nonetheless.

[Guille6785]

6 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Well klei, seems like you need to choose between thematic accuracy for Wendy or keeping the youtube speed runners happy 

no speedrunners have said anything in this thread

[Mr Giggio]

17 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

no speedrunners have said anything in this thread

He just love to be controversial and keep saying stuff to make people give atention to it

[Gashzer]

21 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

no speedrunners have said anything in this thread

Youtuber speed runners* and yes they have 

4 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

He just love to be controversial and keep saying stuff to make people give atention to it

I do love being controversial but I also 100% believe in what I say. 

They arnt mutually exclusive 

[Elpida]

I think Wendy on Beefalo getting full vex bonus (equal to Wendy on foot) is fine and doesn't need adjustment
But! I think the vex bonus itself is too high, 2.08 or whatever is just crazy for this character, I think 1.92 is enough

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Elpida said:

I think Wendy on Beefalo getting full vex bonus (equal to Wendy on foot) is fine and doesn't need adjustment
But! I think the vex bonus itself is too high, 2.08 or whatever is just crazy for this character, I think 1.92 is enough

That's the just number on a beefalo. It's only 1.56 on foot because Wendy has a 0.75 multiplier, which is entirely sensible.

The difference in your numbers tells me you aren't sincere, though.

[Theukon-dos]

On 1/31/2025 at 1:09 PM, SilverSpoon said:

The same goes for Maxwell and Wes, and possibly Walter in future releases.

Wes is Wes. And calling Maxwell's low HP a "downside" is so laughable that using a beefalo to negate it is hardly a factor. While Walter has histoeically been so bad that beefalo being a straight buff for him didn't even matter. Even post-skill tree, most people would probably complain about beefalo outclassed Woby than actually negating his downside.

[Elpida]

37 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

That's the just number on a beefalo. It's only 1.56 on foot because Wendy has a 0.75 multiplier, which is entirely sensible.

The difference in your numbers tells me you aren't sincere, though.

there is still 2.08 in that 1.56 (2.08x0.75) which is too high for a character that "doesn't hit hard"

what I meant is tune down her whole bonus a bit and get something around ~1.9
1.9x0.75 on foot and 1.9 on beefalo

[Bumber64]

3 hours ago, Elpida said:

there is still 2.08 in that 1.56 (2.08x0.75) which is too high for a character that "doesn't hit hard"

what I meant is tune down her whole bonus a bit and get something around ~1.9
1.9x0.75 on foot and 1.9 on beefalo

A -0.18 difference isn't very significant here. 1.9 is still very high, despite being technically lower than Wolfgang.

If we go down to ~1.8, that seems like a reasonable number for beefalo, but it makes it 1.35 on foot. That's not worth the resources spent. The beefalo is clearly the thing that's upsetting the balance.

The beefalo needs to be nerfed specifically to preserve on foot damage.