Yes, we do need to nerf Wendy's beefalo.

[Crimson Hollow]

16 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Lol I'm trying my best to discuss Wortox issues like I said, but instead there are 30 threads about Wendy damage with massive arguments.

lets see if things are gonna stay this way after the next beta. I highly doubt so bc right now there's not too much left to discuss since they havent received an update for maybe 5 weeks.

This looks like rage baiting with little regard to facts, better to move on i believe.

[Gashzer]

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

Yes. I shared same feelings with you.

Cant make Walter and wortox topics giving feedback when both of them arnt receiving updates....

Beefalos being so strong has caused so much unbalance for both Wendy and Walter.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Beefalos being so strong

It deserved to be strong by its expensive cost. 

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

and Walter

This seems not a problem to blame beefalo.

[Gashzer]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It deserved to be strong by its expensive cost. 

Beefalos are dirtcheap. 4pig skin, 4gold and 4 beefalo wool and some lightbulbs, way you go.

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

 

This seems not a problem to blame beefalo.

With the new slingshot holding F is definitely fun! It feels earned after fighting bee queen for the royal grip and this is a dishonested statement.

You have to juggle ammo types to max out your dps so it's a playstyle requiring ammo management outside and inside combat.

Problem with Walter atm that it's all about his slingshot atm with no other scout or useful woby skills apart from agility

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

4pig skin, 4gold

This won't make it as strong as you said. And time is a resources of DST, don't ignore this for particular intention.

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

With the new slingshot holding F is definitely fun! It feels earned after fighting bee queen for the royal grip and this is a dishonested statement

https://b23.tv/kaVwk6J

Fun? If you think it is, ok.

But it is imbalance lol. Don't be dishonest to different characters.

[Thieta]

damn I really just watched walter press F and beat bee queen effortlessly... Which is supposed to be the boss he struggles with most (Allergic to bees)

I'm gonna boot up my world and do big dmg with wendy on her cow

[Lardee]

4 hours ago, arepana said:

It kinda makes sense from a game balance point of view. And even if we say that it doesn0t, it makes MUCH more sense than the beefalo getting the full benefit from the vex, which doesn't matter how you look at it, the more you think about that interaction, the more it looks like a bug. I don't get what you mean by that last thing, like, yeah, there are some character interactions that work positively with beefalo in a way that looks off, I recognize that they exist but that's it.

This is a completely subjective argument. It holds just as much water as literally the exact opposite of every claim made here. 

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

Saying "I'm saying that something not addressed for years is evidence that it's intended and not a bug" is quite literally "If it hasn't been fixed yet, it's not a bug" but with different words. And no, voidwalking wasn't intended. if it was intended it wouldn't have been removed in the first place, common sense proves the opposite. I'm sure that they didn't IMMEDIATELY remove the tentalce rng but rather did it in a different patch, that would mean it was unintended, they listened to criticism and then tried to alleviate the need that voiwalking was filling for the playerbase.

Nope. Claiming something is evidence is not the same as claiming something is identical. Appeal to what you perceive as common sense is just "agree with me or else". It holds no more water than anyone else claiming that common sense supports their argument. If they didn't happen simultaneously, then what's the time gap between the two?

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

I was making an observation about some people and you were either willingly misunderstanding what I was saying, aka creating a strawman or you just didn't understand it.

So you weren't trying to make a point. You just randomly brought up an observation about other people in the middle of the discussion. 

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

Again, not really.
On foot you have multiple weapons and armors to choose from, some outshining others in some circumstances. You might want to use a dark sword against most enemies, a glass cutter against shadows or fuel weaver, you might go for a hambat because you thint it's value outshines the damage, on foot, "strongest" is relative and can change depending on the circumstances. But when the strongest option is beefalo, there is no variety, just an oppresive meta build. So removing beefalo's interactions, even if you don't like and even if I don't like would solve some things

First, the reaper outshines all of those weapons in terms of damage and cost, so this argument makes no sense.

Second, this argument can be applied in the exact same way to Beefalo. "You might want to use dark sword against most enemies" = "You might want to use beefalo against most enemies".  There are many situations where you don't want to be fighting on the Beefalo.

Third, there is no variety between glass cutter, dark sword and hambat combat. The only difference between those weapons is damage and aesthetics. A fight using any of these weapons plays out identical. With beefalo there are functional differences that increase the things you have to deal with making it actually unique.

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

Also, beefalos are the exact opposite of unique. They're literally the most generic thing there is, they make everyone equal, except for some specific outliers. It would Wendy's best option from something generic with overtuned damaged numbers to actually crafting weapons, armors and overall engaging with the game.

So let me get this straight. You believe the problem with beefalo is that they make everyone equal and your solution to this problem is to make the one character who isn't equal when she uses beefalo the same as everyone else.

This also fails to understand what "unique gameplay is". Unique gameplay isn't playing the game identical to the way Wilson does except with different damage numbers. Unique gameplay is engaging with mechanics that the default playstyle doesn't. Using a weapon that deals more or less damage isn't unique for the same reason Wolfgang dealing more damage isn't unique. Using a weapon that requires you to work around its unique downsides does. That's why fighting on a beefalo is actually unique gameplay vs combat using weapons that deal slightly different damage.

No argument for Wendy being "overtuned" it's just assumed out of no where.

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

Not really either, most people I know tame ornery beefalos is because they think they're OP and statistically speaking they're the best. They have really good damage while losing just a bit of speed and needing to be fed every now and then, aka having to deal with a minor annoyance. 

This defeats your argument. If the people you're talking to think that 50 to 68 damage per hit is "really good damage" when they can be hitting for 88+ damage on foot, then the Beefalo doing too much damage isn't the issue. They clearly aren't using it because they think it's an OP best weapon.

 

4 hours ago, arepana said:

If wendy hits just as hard as an Ornery there are still many incentives to have one. It's an infinite weapon, it regens hp passively, you don't get punished for abby's death while riding it, etc. Having wendy on foot being equal to a wendy on beefalo does in fact create more playstyle creativity and makes the game overall better. Now you can choose 

So the only incentives are saving resources that no one ever runs out of? Not being punished for Abby's death removes the one downside of Wendy's character making her generic.

And if these really are your concerns, then changing the Beefalo damage wouldn't do anything. You're clearly not using Beefalo because you think they do the most damage. You're using them because you want to save resources. 

For those who actually want to max out Wendy's damage, there is no incentive to tame an ornery beefalo when all it does is save you resources that you'll never run out of at the cost of much more dangerous boss fights and a mount that's significantly slower and requires you to feed it every time you want to go somewhere.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

This won't make it as strong as you said. And time is a resources of DST, don't ignore this for particular intention.

Beefalo gives you 65% speed boost from the second you start taming it. The bucking becomes not much of a problem after about 3 days of taming.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

https://b23.tv/kaVwk6J

Fun? If you think it is, ok.

But it is imbalance lol. Don't be dishonest to different characters.

You are using ruins gear and slow down rounds, all of which are pretty expensive medium gear (In the olden times it was late game gear)

Below is a more realistic playthrough with walter:

 

 

 

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The bucking becomes not much of a problem after about 3 days of taming.

Then you got a weapon which is worse than spear. Imbalance huh?

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You are using ruins gear and slow down rounds, all of which are pretty expensive medium gear (In the olden times it was late game gear)

It's surprising for me that you think ruin rush is hard and "expensive" but to tame an ornery beefalo and to get a war saddle is cheap.

[Steorra]

https://b23.tv/qLAEsPv

And feel free to learn how to clean the ruin by using beta Walter here, it's brainless

[Crimson Hollow]

There's one thing I would like to understand: when wendy is attacking with beefalo, should we say that wendy is the one initiating the attack so Abby should increase the damage, or should it be the beefalo actually attacking and thus should only receive the average dmg boost?

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

https://b23.tv/qLAEsPv

And feel free to learn how to clean the ruin by using beta Walter here, it's brainless

imo it's but a different playstyle stemming from his harsh downside, that takes much more preparation beforehand compared with other chars. He basically traded speed and resource efficiency for safety. 

[Steorra]

42 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

There's one thing I would like to understand: when wendy is attacking with beefalo, should we say that wendy is the one initiating the attack so Abby should increase the damage, or should it be the beefalo actually attacking and thus should only receive the average dmg boost?

My understanding of this question is:

Vex has two effect for different scenarios,

1. When the damage source is from Wendy, the damage get 1.4 multiplier.

2.

Quote

When the attacker is non Wendy, apply the 1.1 multiplier.

This was wrong. It should be "When the target takes any damage, it get 1.1 multiplier.

 

I'm sorry for the wrong info before.

[Crimson Hollow]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

My understanding of this question is:

Vex has two effect for different scenarios,

1. When the damage source is from Wendy, the damage get 1.4 multiplier.

2. When the attacker is non Wendy, apply the 1.1 multiplier.

The definition of damage source and attacker might be messed and debatable. The point is the two Vex effect was identified by two different logic, and in most scenarios they wouldn't work together.

But when Wendy riding a beefalo, she would be identified as both the non Wendy entity (1.1x) and damage source from Wendy (1.4x). The two effects of the Vex had been activated in this special scenario.

lol I just had a funny idea:

Every time wendy lets out a warcry she gets the 1.4× boost for a few seconds 

[Steorra]

In other example, Beefalo makes the attacker become Beefalo - riding by player but not character themselves. Which makes the character damage multiplier inactive here (0.75 of Wendy, Wes, 1.25 of Wigfrid). The 1.1x multiplier of extra damage taken for the target would works here.

And the damage sourse is still from Wendy even she is riding a beefalo. So 1.4 is working as well.

 

no Warly stuff things here I guess, sorry for misinfo.

 

31 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

Every time wendy lets out a warcry she gets the 1.4× boost for a few seconds 

Beefalo and Abby: Let us see your war face!

Wendy: (yawning on the beefalo)

45 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

imo it's but a different playstyle stemming from his harsh downside, that takes much more preparation beforehand compared with other chars. He basically traded speed and resource efficiency for safety. 

I personally rather hope we could have a skill of Woby which makes Woby have more endurance for battle (make it become another form of health bar, but it's for Woby and when it reduced to 0 it only makes Walter be drop off but won't make Woby die).

Keep what the extremely downside we have of Woby but makes the slowing effect become OP is a bit imbalance, boring and strange for me personally.

[JazzyGames]

23 minutes ago, Steorra said:

My understanding of this question is:

Vex has two effect for different scenarios,

1. When the damage source is from Wendy, the damage get 1.4 multiplier.

2. When the attacker is non Wendy, apply the 1.1 multiplier.

The definition of damage source and attacker might be messed and debatable. The point is the two Vex effect was identified by two different logic, and in most scenarios they wouldn't work together.

But when Wendy riding a beefalo, she would be identified as both the non Wendy entity (1.1x) and damage source from Wendy (1.4x). The two effects of the Vex had been activated in this special scenario.

To clarify:

Wendy receives both vex mults as well as her personal 0.75 mult (0.75*1.1*1.4=1.155). Wendy’s beefalo receive both vex mults but not her personal 0.75x (1.4*1.1=1.54).

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

To clarify:

Wendy receives both vex mults as well as her personal 0.75 mult (0.75*1.1*1.4=1.155). Wendy’s beefalo receive both vex mults but not her personal 0.75x (1.4*1.1=1.54).

Opps I'm sorry I was forgot the 1.1 works for Wendy on foot as well. You are right.

Then there's no more bug doubting about Beefalo interaction.

 

33 minutes ago, Crimson Hollow said:

 

I'm really sorry that I was forgot some important thing and brings misinfo before, I was recheck and correct my infos just now. JazzyGame was right and it's an explanation which is more easier to understand...

[Crimson Hollow]

11 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm really sorry that I was forgot some important thing and brings misinfo before, I was recheck and correct my infos just now. JazzyGame was right and it's an explanation which is more easier to understand...

Ahh what, that's already a lot of info and its useful. 

[AliceShiki]

Tbh, it has always felt weird that Beefalo ignores characters' personal multipliers.

I don't get why Wigfrid doesn't do x1.25 on a Beefalo nor why Wendy doesn't get x0.75 on a Beefalo... It doesn't make much sense to me. Feels like the kind of thing that should be streamlined across all characters.

Otherwise, Beefalo just becomes optimal for low damage characters and underwhelming for high damage characters... Instead of being an interesting option for everyone.

[Thieta]

What you said is quite literally what makes it an interesting option for everyone and idg how you can come to the conclusion that it's "Generic"

Beefalo has different tendencies so it can work with different characters. Playing wolfgang, Want a beef, But don't need DMG from it? Go rider or even pudgy.

Want a beef but playing wes and he's pretty weak and you struggle with basic fights? Go ornery for the damage.

They provide unique and universal value to all characters + An interesting way to counter character's downsides or Attune to your playstyle. Heck even walter can tame a beef and make it pudgy if you struggle with kiting, Just for the sanity buff to counter his unique downside.

Beefs are something that can be optionally added to any playstyle or character and has a use for all characters. Even if it's just pudgy for sanity regen on someone like wortox (Has mobility, Healing, No negative dmg multiplier. Truly the only one where getting a beef other than pudgy is a downside UNLESS you struggle with resources/Daily fights)

[mkemal23]

21 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

I don't get why Wigfrid doesn't do x1.25 on a Beefalo nor why Wendy doesn't get x0.75 on a Beefalo... It doesn't make much sense to me. Feels like the kind of thing that should be streamlined across all characters.

Because thematicaly it makes perfect sense?

Wendy is a child therefore she's weaker than average.

Wigfrid is a Warrior (At least in constant) therefore she's stronger than average.

So when Wendy sits on the beefalo, she benefits from it's damage, While wigfrid doesn't. Why would beefalos damage magicaly scale with the person thats sitting on it? It doesn't make much sense.

It's like saying that Rider beefalos should be faster if you play as WX and use speed circuits.

29 minutes ago, AliceShiki said:

Otherwise, Beefalo just becomes optimal for low damage characters and underwhelming for high damage characters... Instead of being an interesting option for everyone.

That's the point. Beefalos are there to give you a alternative, reliable damage/speed source, not to replace every equipment you have.

And also that is (most likely) why klei keeps adding knockback to newer bosses.

[Steorra]

Ok folks the whole argument relative with OP is completely wrong since they based on wrong infos from the very beginning.

Time to end this topic I guess, or at least you guys should start a new thread for preventing the wrong infos.

 

[RussoDaFederal]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Ok folks the whole argument relative with OP is completely wrong since they based on wrong infos from the very beginning.

Time to end this topic I guess, or at least you guys should start a new thread for preventing the wrong infos.

 

I wouldn't call it "wrong info". They just didn't pass those numbers through the Planar Entity Protection formula. They're still right about all non planar mobs. Also I agree with OP, even if beefalos are "weak" against planar mobs, I still think this is an oversight by Klei and should be patched. Beefalos already have tons of perks, why should they have the highest DPS possible too? They currently have almost zero drawbacks, knockback being the only significant one. But at this point Klei can do whatever they want and I won't be surprised anymore.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

They're still right about all non planar mobs.

Really? I've seen someone clarify that Wendy has 1.4*1.6 multiplier, or Wolfgang have only 2.0 multiplier etc. 

1.4 is a wrong info.

2.0 might be a selective fact since they never mentioned that "this is for non affinity boss fighting only"

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Really? I've seen someone clarify that Wendy has 1.4*1.6 multiplier, or Wolfgang have only 2.0 multiplier etc. 

1.4 is a wrong info.

2.0 might be a selective fact since they never mentioned that "this is for non affinity boss fighting only"

It's not wrong. Abigail's vex makes it so mobs take an extra 1.1x damage from all sources and an extra 1.4x from Wendy. Being selective is one thing, being wrong is another. And honestly I wouldn't even say they're being selective, they just didn't go through a specific formula. You did the same thing when you made the "Wendy = Wes" comparison. Wes' damage output is very close to everyone else's when he's using the shadow reaper. And despawning and respawning Abigail takes time, which you could use to hit the target boss instead, which inevitably means there is a DPS loss if you use Abigail in a safe/smart way. Which one do you think is more selective/biased?

https://dontstarve.wiki.gg/wiki/Abigail/DST

[Steorra]

34 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It's not wrong. Abigail's vex makes it so mobs take an extra 1.1x damage from all sources and an extra 1.4x from Wendy

Sorry? The 1.4*1.6 was an argument of Vex as they mentioned.

34 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

"Wendy = Wes"

I agree this is selective fact as a title. But i won't accept the accusation if it's towards my whole opinion before. Since I hide nothing in the argument and all the argument is focusing on planar scenario. The argument before already has bee clarified as a comparison for planar only.

This is different to what the OP here did.

The OP give an ambiguity argument to the comparison which makes us can not know if the beefalo here mentioned is ornery with war saddle or not for clarifying Wendy DPS is imbalance. Laterly the OP say that Beefalo gives you 65% speed boost from the second you start taming it. The bucking becomes not much of a problem after about 3 days of taming.

So a spear damage beefalo is imbalance?

If you think this is not a selective fact then i leave it here and quit.