Wendy = Wes? Strange Balance.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Cdijk16 said:

 This claim in the OP that Wendy + Abigail does the same damage as Wes vs Armored Bearger is simply not true. As you can see from the 2 videos linked below, Wendy + Abigail with the current skill tree takes significantly less time to kill Armored Bearger than Wes.

Wes vs Armored Bearger: 维斯无加速无亮茄无伤月熊_饥荒联机版

 

In short, my opinion:

Shadow saddle need buff

Cursed Vex need adjustment for more focusing on planar damage

[Picklesaurus]

Just now, Steorra said:

Shadow saddle need buff

It doesn't, Shadow saddle is already one of the best items in the game. 

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

It doesn't, Shadow saddle is already one of the best items in the game. 

Don't lie, 

Shadow saddle, shadow abi (before her Planar damage buffed), Cursed Vex, they are same.

To judge an endgame item is good or not, you should focus on its performance of endgame, and ignore its performance of early game.

[WereBruhver]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Don't lie, 

Shadow saddle, shadow abi (before her Planar damage buffed), Cursed Vex, they are same.

To judge an endgame item is good or not, you should focus on its performance of endgame, and ignore its performance of early game.

Dont lie, End game is not only about Wendy and Shadow saddle is not only about damage. 

[Mysterious box]

15 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Don't lie, 

Shadow saddle, shadow abi (before her Planar damage buffed), Cursed Vex, they are same.

To judge an endgame item is good or not, you should focus on its performance of endgame, and ignore its performance of early game.

It shouldn't be judged based on fast Wendy can kill a boss with it but all the other factors combined it gives planar damage, extremely high defense, shadow alignment bonuses, is faster than the default saddle, and takes more than double the shake offs to break but we're talking about buffing it? If anything it's already too strong.

[Picklesaurus]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Don't lie, 

Shadow saddle, shadow abi (before her Planar damage buffed), Cursed Vex, they are same.

To judge an endgame item is good or not, you should focus on its performance of endgame, and ignore its performance of early game.

It is incredible how you ignored every other perk from the Shaddow Saddle, considered the most Nitpick damage related use case for Wendy like she will only use it as a weapon and also ignored that other characters can use the item, following this logic Should Shadow Saddle be buffed simply because Wolfgang deals less damage while he is fighting on a beefalo than he deals damage while hitting with a Brightshade sword or Shadow Reaper? It makes no sense.

[hyoton123]

49 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Don't lie, 

Shadow saddle, shadow abi (before her Planar damage buffed), Cursed Vex, they are same.

To judge an endgame item is good or not, you should focus on its performance of endgame, and ignore its performance of early game.

what am i doing here?!

anyway this is an example of how speeding through content is not a good measure of the DST experience, you arent going to use it for speedrunning bosses (probably??) but it is a lot of fun to play with as long and greatly improves beef durability. i dont think it’s good for post rift bosses but it is a tremendous item.

 

(why am i in the screenshot?! haha)

[Steorra]

8 hours ago, WereBruhver said:

Dont lie, End game is not only about Wendy and Shadow saddle is not only about damage. 

You know shadow saddle do nothing to knockdown right?

8 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

and takes more than double the shake offs to break 

I'm not sure about this part...

 

8 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

extremely high defense,

This is the problem, we know how knockdown frequently in end game i mean post rift, but it's the critical weakness of beefalo. Shadow saddle give no help to this but only defence. The defense is useless for knockdown.

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Steorra said:

You know shadow saddle do nothing to knockdown right?

Name one item that makes you immune to knockback

[Steorra]

8 hours ago, Picklesaurus said:

It is incredible how you ignored every other perk from the Shaddow Saddle, considered the most Nitpick damage related use case for Wendy like she will only use it as a weapon and also ignored that other characters can use the item, following this logic Should Shadow Saddle be buffed simply because Wolfgang deals less damage while he is fighting on a beefalo than he deals damage while hitting with a Brightshade sword or Shadow Reaper? It makes no sense.

I agree that its damage may have no problem for other character, point taken, but the other perks? The most effective perk is its defence but knockdown make the defense become meaningless 

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Name one item that makes you immune to knockback

That's another problem. 

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

That's another problem. 

How is that a problem? The whole point of knockback is to further encourage players to avoid getting hit

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

How is that a problem? The whole point of knockback is to further encourage players to avoid getting hit

You won't because of a knockbavk to losing your character life, but you would because of a kncokback lose your beefalo. They are not same. And a post rift item should work fine for post ritf. But shadow saddle doesn't.

[RussoDaFederal]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

You won't because of a knockbavk to losing your character life, but you would because of a kncokback lose your beefalo. They are not same. And a post rift item should work fine for post ritf. But shadow saddle doesn't.

Then don't use the beefalo...? Why would you get in a fight knowing you can easily lose your beefalo and then complain that you lost your beefalo? It's a risk you must be willing to take. If you don't want to risk it, don't use the beefalo. It's just a minority of bosses that can knock you out of your beefalo anyway

[somethin]

34 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Then don't use the beefalo...? Why would you get in a fight knowing you can easily lose your beefalo and then complain that you lost your beefalo? It's a risk you must be willing to take. If you don't want to risk it, don't use the beefalo. It's just a minority of bosses that can knock you out of your beefalo anyway

To add to this, even if you lose your beefalo gloom bell exist now... So it's not even a problem lmao

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Then don't use the beefalo...? 

"Don't use it" again? Please no. Or all discussion become meaningless.

1 hour ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It's just a minority of bosses that can knock you out of your beefalo anyway

They are mainly for postrift.

 

1 hour ago, somethin said:

To add to this, even if you lose your beefalo gloom bell exist now... So it's not even a problem lmao

The gloom bell is good for pre-rift daily use, but it has same problem to post-rift battle as the Ghastly elixir. I don't want to blame it for post-rift, but I prefer to focus on the shadow saddle.

To pause your fight is a bad game experience. Even you could have a chance to back later.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

This is the problem, we know how knockdown frequently in end game i mean post rift, but it's the critical weakness of beefalo. Shadow saddle give no help to this but only defence. The defense is useless for knockdown.

That's how they keep it balanced it makes your beefalo near immortal so there needs to be a way you can die beyond just tanking everything and not paying attention to your beefalo's health which is where knockback comes into the picture.

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

I'm not sure about this part...

Normal saddle 5 nightmare saddle 12 and it can be repaired with a kit.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

That's how they keep it balanced it makes your beefalo near immortal so there needs to be a way you can die beyond just tanking everything and not paying attention to your beefalo's health which is where knockback comes into the picture

I think as a post-rift item it should served for endgame. I mean its basic defence is meaningless for endgame but the knockback is the urgent problems which need to address.

 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Normal saddle 5 nightmare saddle 12 and it can be repaired with a kit.

I know this, I mean when you could reach the endgame to obtain the shadow saddle, the duration of saddle would be completely meaningless for you.

[RussoDaFederal]

7 hours ago, Steorra said:

"Don't use it" again? Please no. Or all discussion become meaningless.

You're free to use the beefalo. It's supposed to be risky. If the beefalo dies, it's your fault, but if you manage to keep it alive you have several bonuses. Like somethin said, there's the beefalo bell now so the beefalo doesn't die as soon as you get hit once, you just have to get far enough for the beefalo to follow you and he'll be saved. What do you want? Do you really want a way to simply hold F with the beefalo and win? Let's be honest, beefalo tamers are not "casual" players, so don't start the whole "think of the casuals" argument. Why would a player experienced enough to tame an ornery beefalo need to be catered to? What is it that you're trying to achieve here?

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Steorra said:

I think as a post-rift item it should served for endgame. I mean its basic defence is meaningless for endgame but the knockback is the urgent problems which need to address.

It does it makes your beefalo near invincible even in the end game so knockback is a fair compromise. If you want beefalos to ignore the knockback mechanic then beefalo need a massive nerf in survability to compensate as otherwise they'd be too free for the end game. Basically would you rather have knockback or a more fragile beefalo than even the current default one?

[Grove]

41 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

You're free to use the beefalo. It's supposed to be risky. If the beefalo dies, it's your fault, but if you manage to keep it alive you have several bonuses. Like somethin said, there's the beefalo bell now so the beefalo doesn't die as soon as you get hit once, you just have to get far enough for the beefalo to follow you and he'll be saved. What do you want? Do you really want a way to simply hold F with the beefalo and win? Let's be honest, beefalo tamers are not "casual" players, so don't start the whole "think of the casuals" argument. Why would a player experienced enough to tame an ornery beefalo need to be catered to? What is it that you're trying to achieve here?

To add to this, even with knockback as long as it's not a something with a combo like armored bearger, if you have marble armor, then it's perfectly since you will get dismounted but can mount instantly as long as the beef is fed since nightmare saddle allows you to mount an aggroed beefalo.

Only problem is the low speed of the marble armor.... or it would be if Wendy didn't just get a new item that allows her to completely ignore this

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162577-knockback-problems-countered-by-mourning-glory-ii/

Just now, Debruh said:

To add to this, even with knockback as long as it's not a something with a combo like armored bearger, if you have marble armor, then it's perfectly since you will get dismounted but can mount instantly as long as the beef is fed since nightmare saddle allows you to mount an aggroed beefalo.

Only problem is the low speed of the marble armor.... or it would be if Wendy didn't just get a new item that allows her to completely ignore this

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162577-knockback-problems-countered-by-mourning-glory-ii/

Only problem would be planar damage pieces armor, so against something like armored bearger, the second swipe is gonna end you.

[Steorra]

50 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Do you really want a way to simply hold F with the beefalo and win?

I hope we could have more understanding for each other but not accusations.

I personally prefer the shadow saddle have no defense but have ability for anti-knockback. I don't think 0 def beefalo could do what you say for post-rift bosses.

30 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It does it makes your beefalo near invincible even in the end game so knockback is a fair compromise.

This is more like the current Cursed Vex.

Is it powerful? Yes.

Is it urgent needed? No.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Basically would you rather have knockback or a more fragile beefalo than even the current default one?

And the answer is like what my attitude to current Cursed Vex - I hope the unnecessary bonus get nerf (General damage bonus from Cursed Vex; Defense of the Shadow Saddle), then buff what they really need (Planar damage enhancement from Cursed Vex; Knockback immune of the Shadow Saddle).

There may have some accusation belike : "Then is this an Elitism?" 

I would say no. Since if you have ability to achieve post-rift items like the Shadow Saddle or the Cursed Vex Elixir, then the benefit of them which is strong only for pre-rift would be unnecessary for you. If you need those strong effect for pre-rift, then it would most belike you'd struggling to reach the post-rift.

[RussoDaFederal]

56 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I hope we could have more understanding for each other but not accusations.

That's not an accusation, that's my understanding of what you're asking. If that's not what you meant, please be more specific in the future and provide more details. Nullyfying knockback completely DOES allow for some tanking, even if you're not completely invincible. This is not debatable, it's a fact

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I hope we could have more understanding for each other but not accusations.

I personally prefer the shadow saddle have no defense but have ability for anti-knockback. I don't think 0 def beefalo could do what you say for post-rift bosses.

This is more like the current Cursed Vex.

Is it powerful? Yes.

Is it urgent needed? No.

 

 

And the answer is like what my attitude to current Cursed Vex - I hope the unnecessary bonus get nerf (General damage bonus from Cursed Vex; Defense of the Shadow Saddle), then buff what they really need (Planar damage enhancement from Cursed Vex; Knockback immune of the Shadow Saddle).

There may have some accusation belike : "Then is this an Elitism?" 

I would say no. Since if you have ability to achieve post-rift items like the Shadow Saddle or the Cursed Vex Elixir, then the benefit of them which is strong only for pre-rift would be unnecessary for you. If you need those strong effect for pre-rift, then it would most belike you'd struggling to reach the post-rift.

I'll repeat what I already said. Beefalo are too strong even by default for post rift content and as such if you want knockback removed the base beefalo needs to undergo a nerf.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'll repeat what I already said. Beefalo are too strong even by default for post rift content and as such if you want knockback removed the base beefalo needs to undergo a nerf.

This is debatable you know, though I prefer to let it be for now.

19 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

DOES allow for some tanking, even if you're not completely invincible.

We can't say that the Marble Armor and double Bone Armors are imbalance, I guess.

[CremeLover]

As someone who plays with a Beefalo almost all the time

-Nightmare Saddle's best features is the 60% damage reduction compared to the 0% damage reduction from all other saddles.
-Beefalo heals x4 with healing items, is good to carry a stack of blue mushrooms/cooked potatoes in a bundle if you play Beefalo a lot.
-If for some reason with all the extra defense and healing you make a mistake, and are forced to use the gloom bell to revive it, is a good idea to take a break and let the bell recharge before going onto boss hunting with the beefalo again, and rely on regular armor+healing in the meantime, unless you want to spend 20 days getting another one.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

I personally prefer the shadow saddle have no defense but have ability for anti-knockback. I don't think 0 def beefalo could do what you say for post-rift bosses.

This would leave the only saddle with damage reduction be a Wigfrid exclusive.

I would prefer some kind of whistle to call the beefalo to your side and make it stop fighting similarly to what webber rather than nerf a fantastic item because 3 bosses have attacks that can counter it. Otherwise, an ice staff is a cheap and easy way to stop bearger's chain attack and mount back on beefalo.

I believe we will get knockback resistance eventually, as more knockback heavy enemies are introduced, but so far, I don't think is necessary. (though I could see giving her knockback resistance in the form of the defense potions when used on her new hat for the 1 hit they block)

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

And the answer is like what my attitude to current Cursed Vex - I hope the unnecessary bonus get nerf (General damage bonus from Cursed Vex; Defense of the Shadow Saddle), then buff what they really need (Planar damage enhancement from Cursed Vex; Knockback immune of the Shadow Saddle).

I would say no. Since if you have ability to achieve post-rift items like the Shadow Saddle or the Cursed Vex Elixir, then the benefit of them which is strong only for pre-rift would be unnecessary for you. If you need those strong effect for pre-rift, then it would most belike you'd struggling to reach the post-rift.

Shadow Abigail does 40 planar damage per second on nighttime, plus there's Lunar Abigail that does 100 planar with the elixir per hit.
And planar damage is not affected by character multipliers, which means Wendy is above Wilson in terms of planar DPS, be with or without a Beefalo, in all situations, and will be able to take advantage of further planar damage weapons since those are not affected by character multipliers.

As of right now, Wendy can deal up to 51*2+40=142 planar dps equipped with the Shadow Maul and a Void Cowl.
The only difference between Wendy and Wolfgang planar damage is that Wolfgang gets 25*2=50 planar damage per second with his skill (before alignment calculations), and Wendy gets the 40 from Shadow Abigail.

I do think Wendy could use some QoL in her skill tree, and some more interesting skills, but I don't think DPS potential is what she's lacking.