Wendy = Wes? Strange Balance.

[SilverSpoon]

27 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The argument was that Blessed Sisturn eliminated Wendy's weakness. If there's no reason to eliminate a character's weakness then it should not be done.

Survivability may not be necessary for those who well-skilled to keep Abigail alive, but survivability is mainly for beginners who cannot keep Abigail alive.

Also, "reason" in the game is not necessarily limited to actual values such as Boss defeat time or DPS. I think that most Wendy players would rather have "be with Abigail for longer or easier" than "Buff Wendy".

38 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This has been conveyed to you in basically every thread we've interacted in.

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. I wouldn't understand that if you premise that posts in another thread.

[Steorra]

Just now, gaymime said:

yup, i know ^^

yep, we know what makes someone think Maxwell is "harder" than Wendy ^^

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

How fast does Wolfgang kill armored bearger, anyway?

no idea, I never touched him and never want to touch him

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Survivability may not be necessary for those who well-skilled to keep Abigail alive, but survivability is mainly for beginners who cannot keep Abigail alive.

Beginners aren't fighting Armored Bearger.

4 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. I wouldn't understand that if you premise that posts in another thread.

Nah, deliberately misrepresenting what one person believes is intellectually dishonest.

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

You still insist on using up effort on your fingers typing to him? It's clear you guys will never agree on anything. 

I agree

[Maybe Just]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

How fast does Wolfgang kill armored bearger, anyway?

About 30 seconds?I think I forgot.

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Maybe Just said:

About 30 seconds?I think I forgot.

Doesn't seem right.

A lot of the point of planar enemies and planar damage was to normalize everyone's damage. Wendy and Wes with a Reaper scythe don't hit much less than Wilson. Wolfgang no longer hits for double in this scenario, either.

Looks like full Wolfgang rampup with the scythe is 124 damage vs Armored Bearger. Compared with Lardees second video, I'd guess Wolfgang also kills Armored Bearger in about a minute? Maybe a few seconds under?

Really goofy that, after all this talk (weeks?) about damage comparisons of the entire roster vs Armored Bearger, pretty much everyone kills Armored Bearger in 1:00 to 1:30.

(Except for the two army of followers characters)

[asdsaax]

30 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

In a perfect world, beefalos wouldn't have to be "her thing"; alas, nothing has really shaken the "meta" so far.

The problem of the post is that Nightmare Saddle is underperforming
which is weird because it's supposed to be an upgrade for war saddle that adapts to planar enemies

I think it's fair to find it weird, so I'm not sure what ur talking about

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

The problem of the post is that Nightmare Saddle is underperforming
which is weird because it's supposed to be an upgrade for war saddle that adapts to planar enemies

I think it's fair to find it weird, so I'm not sure what ur talking about

I mean it makes sense. It brings Beefalo in general up to par, but doesnt have the special Wendy+Beef synergy that turbocharges Wendy pre rift. If anything, I'm fine with this, I dont like needing to have a beef for a massive portion of Wendy.

3 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Wtf

In general, Beefalo is one of like 3 reasons balancing Wendy is a nightmare along with the duality of her playerbase.

She has a completely different level of damage output. But beef arent that popular. So do you balance around her max damage most people use? Or the max level possible?

[asdsaax]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I mean it makes sense. It brings Beefalo in general up to par, but doesnt have the special Wendy+Beef synergy that turbocharges Wendy pre rift. If anything, I'm fine with this, I dont like needing to have a beef for a massive portion of Wendy.

I mean to be fair...
It's weird that the saddle doesn't meet expectations, but Wendy's dowside gets mitigated by the scythe...
I guess it's fair to assume that trade-off is the balanced way of things

but isn't it a little subjective tho?
Some people enjoy beefalos, you work really hard on them and ornery is especially obnoxious with grass tax
so it's kinda lame to see it fall off like that, especially when combat is it's main purpose

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, asdsaax said:

I mean to be fair...
It's weird that the saddle doesn't meet expectations, but Wendy's dowside gets mitigated by the scythe...
I guess it's fair to assume that trade-off is the balanced way of things

but isn't it a little subjective tho?
Some people enjoy beefalos, you work really hard on them and ornery is especially obnoxious with grass tax
so it's kinda lame to see it fall off like that, especially when combat is it's main purpose

Im not going to pretend its not a bit of mess, but it is theway it is.

Personally, I think Beef should have similar damage / slightly higher damage output to on foot combat, but with much greater speed. The move speed is the reward for tamers. It shouldnt feel mandatory for a character that isnt designed for it though.

 

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, asdsaax said:

I mean to be fair...
It's weird that the saddle doesn't meet expectations, but Wendy's dowside gets mitigated by the scythe...
I guess it's fair to assume that trade-off is the balanced way of things

but isn't it a little subjective tho?
Some people enjoy beefalos, you work really hard on them and ornery is especially obnoxious with grass tax
so it's kinda lame to see it fall off like that, especially when combat is it's main purpose

I think this is pretty intentional.

Klei is using new/post rift stuff to try to hammer out balancing issues. Like Weneric said, beefalo damage is one of those balancing issues.

It can't be a mistake at this point that so much of the new content can knock you off a beefalo.

Devs don't want you to use a beefalo on new stuff, they want you to use a reaper or brightshade sword.

The nightmare saddle and gloombell was a little concession. I don't think they wanted it to be as strong as a reaper, or they would have done so.

[asdsaax]

26 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Im not going to pretend its not a bit of mess, but it is theway it is.

Personally, I think Beef should have similar damage / slightly higher damage output to on foot combat, but with much greater speed. The move speed is the reward for tamers. It shouldnt feel mandatory for a character that isnt designed for it though.

Ah I see, thanks for elaboration
I agree with your point

Edit:
Personally I think things are getting too muddy for Me to contribute, so I will just hope Klei makes something out of it perhaps haha

[Maybe Just]

55 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Doesn't seem right.

A player achieved a score of thirty seconds with the chaud-froid; without it, it would probably be around 40 seconds.I don't want to prove it because it was you who brought it up.
 

[yinjiu019]

Wow, Wendy+abigail＜Wes.
What an interesting result. Even though it's already been revealed, you guys are not willing to think about it?
Or, nerf Wes? Or, strengthen all bosses?

(¬‿¬)

[shaurun]

On 12/19/2024 at 6:57 AM, Lardee said:

Beginners aren't fighting Armored Bearger.

I have 1600+ hours in DST. And I don't fight Armored Bearger lol. I always use him to kill Bee Queen and then just stuck him behind some lakes to safely end his life using distance. 

 

So you're great players, you don't need any damage boosts to be good.

[Grove]

3 hours ago, asdsaax said:

I mean to be fair...
It's weird that the saddle doesn't meet expectations, but Wendy's dowside gets mitigated by the scythe...
I guess it's fair to assume that trade-off is the balanced way of things

but isn't it a little subjective tho?
Some people enjoy beefalos, you work really hard on them and ornery is especially obnoxious with grass tax
so it's kinda lame to see it fall off like that, especially when combat is it's main purpose

Also, only a bit of ornery+nightmare saddle is planar damage. As opposed to like half of a brightshade sword

[lio516]

So I'm sick of people always saying that Wendy is very strong and dps is very high, the problem is that in order to protect Abigail in the fight, there is no way to do that much damage, and the risk is very high if riding a cow, actually Wendy is a Wes in the boss fight, and a lot of people have  tried to refute me

[Dingle]

6 hours ago, Maybe Just said:

A player achieved a score of thirty seconds with the chaud-froid; without it, it would probably be around 40 seconds.I don't want to prove it because it was you who brought it up.
 

Oh, I didn't think of the volt goat jelly. I know planar system nerfs that, too. I dont know what that would reduce Wes and Wendy's time to, either.

4 hours ago, yinjiu019 said:

Wow, Wendy+abigail＜Wes.
What an interesting result. Even though it's already been revealed, you guys are not willing to think about it?
Or, nerf Wes? Or, strengthen all bosses?

(¬‿¬)

You only read the first post, huh. Or just the topic title haha.

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, yinjiu019 said:

Wow, Wendy+abigail＜Wes.
What an interesting result. Even though it's already been revealed, you guys are not willing to think about it?
Or, nerf Wes? Or, strengthen all bosses?

(¬‿¬)

Because it's not actually true the beefalo falls behind but the solution as shown is to simply not use a beefalo for the fight and then her time becomes faster even more so with shadow Abigail the question becomes do you want to buff beefalos even more?

[hyoton123]

Planar weapons are very good if you have a damage penalty**, and beefalo melee is not very good vs the only boss in the game, armored bearger*. I’m not even sure this should be in beta, it has almost nothing to do with beta content unless it is a referendum on shadow abigail here.

 

**This is why people need to cut it out with 0.75.
 

*Beefalos are an amazing platform for the gloomerang and the nightmare saddle is great for rift minibosses and nonrift content which you’ll do in a long term world.

[Steorra]

50 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Planar weapons are very good if you have a damage penalty**, and beefalo melee is not very good vs the only boss in the game, armored bearger*. I’m not even sure this should be in beta, it has almost nothing to do with beta content unless it is a referendum on shadow abigail here.

 

**This is why people need to cut it out with 0.75.
 

*Beefalos are an amazing platform for the gloomerang and the nightmare saddle is great for rift minibosses and nonrift content which you’ll do in a long term world.

Yes this thread is aim to rise people's attention to cursed vex balance. It's overpowered for prerift but weak for postrift i guess it need adjustment like what they did to shadow abi.

[YuRinshue]

12 hours ago, Lardee said:

The argument was that Blessed Sisturn eliminated Wendy's weakness. If there's no reason to eliminate a character's weakness then it should not be done.  This has been conveyed to you in basically every thread we've interacted in.

Firstly, Wendy's weakness is her weak attack power, which is a 0.75 attack coefficient, as explicitly mentioned in the character introduction. Your claim of weakness is not valid from the beginning.
Secondly, Vila's skill tree prevents her from burning loot, which is her biggest weakness in being eliminated. Your claim that 'skill trees should not eliminate weaknesses' is unfounded from the beginning.
If you always want to stick to the rule that KLei doesn't even recognize, I have to suspect that you're just trying to stir up a dispute.

[Huijing]

11 hours ago, Dingle said:

Looks like full Wolfgang rampup with the scythe is 124 damage vs Armored Bearger. Compared with Lardees second video, I'd guess Wolfgang also kills Armored Bearger in about a minute? Maybe a few seconds under?

Wolfgang attacks the Armored Bearer with the Shadow Reaper, which deals 142.7 to 171.3 damage per hit.

((√(38×1.1×2×4+64)-8)×4+18+5+4+25)×1.1×1.3=142.77

((√(38×1.1×2×4+64)-8)×4+18+5+24+25)×1.1×1.3=171.37

The battle may have lasted a lot shorter than expected.

 

 

[Dingle]

49 minutes ago, Huijing said:

Wolfgang attacks the Armored Bearer with the Shadow Reaper, which deals 142.7 to 171.3 damage per hit.

((√(38×1.1×2×4+64)-8)×4+18+5+4+25)×1.1×1.3=142.77

((√(38×1.1×2×4+64)-8)×4+18+5+24+25)×1.1×1.3=171.37

The battle may have lasted a lot shorter than expected.

 

 

Thanks, yeah that would definitely make the fight shorter.

I'll also check in game when I can, to be sure.

Edit: Oh I see, it's because of the Shadow Affinity giving a bonus of 30% against lunar creatures. I always forget that exists, since Lunar Affinity is a lot more useful (for fighting nightmare creatures the entire game).

[Cdijk16]

 This claim in the OP that Wendy + Abigail does the same damage as Wes vs Armored Bearger is simply not true. As you can see from the 2 videos linked below, Wendy + Abigail with the current skill tree takes significantly less time to kill Armored Bearger than Wes.

Wes vs Armored Bearger: 维斯无加速无亮茄无伤月熊_饥荒联机版