Immortal Abigail erodes Wendy's identity.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

This potion is not mandatory. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

No one's saying you have to use Spectral Cure All.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

Cool, now that I have your attention:

It's a bit outdated at the moment (for example, the Dodge command I suggested would now be its own thing instead of reworking Escape), but I'll edit it later.

100% agree, I think they should remove the animation at least for kiting and intangible commands.

[Tranoze]

8 minutes ago, Lardee said:

But we've had the over prepared option for the longest time: Spectral Cure All. The skill tree already makes this option far more viable by slashing the cost of potions.

And in the event Abigail does die, we have a potion that makes that downside insignificant. 

Before, even with SCA potions, you have to either take a lots of rest time during fight because boss aoe dps are too high for abi healing to keep up, or the healing is not needed at all because boss is single target and rarely damage abi.

I would hope you test abi fighting bosses together with wendy:
Without potions + player tag buff, see how long abi last.
With potions + without player tag.
With both.
 

[Xplan]

2 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

That why i think it is neccessary to have "over prepared chuck healing" options.
There are 3 ways to kill boss in this game safely as i think:

Kiting it to death.
Face tank it to death.
Let it fight something else to death.

Which is why i think over prepared + face tank it to death is good alternative for people cant be good enough to dodge and learn every single boss pattern.

that's why i love this game. 

for the skillful players, they can beat the Giants by kiting to avoid consuming the armor.

for those who are not that good at fighting, they could prepare enough resources to tank it.

Klei even give us a way to provoke a fight between Giants.

there is nothing really OP here.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Tranoze said:

Before even with SCA potions, you have to either take a lots of rest time during fight because boss aoe dps are too high for abi healing to keep up, or the healing is not needed at all because boss is single target and rarely damage abi.

I would hope you test abi fighting bosses together with wendy:
Without potions + player tag buff, see how long abi last.
With potions + without player tag.
With both.
 

Which fights are you talking about?

The only ones that come to mind are Bearger, Crystal Deerclops, and the two final bosses.

I think it's fine if Spectral Cure All can't just tank the two final bosses and it's also okay if Wendy has a few bosses that she's just not a good matchup against.

[WenericMember]

@Lardee by your reckoning, how many cure-alls would be needed to complete a boss with 100% uptime, assuming you're fighting alongsode Abby? Use say ancient guardian as a basis.

[Lardee]

Just now, WenericMember said:

@Lardee by your reckoning, how many cure-alls would be needed to complete a boss with 100% uptime, assuming you're fighting alongsode Abby? Use say ancient guardian as a basis.

I'd probably just divide the typical time it takes to fight a boss by 30 seconds.

[Tranoze]

Just now, Lardee said:

Which fights are you talking about?

The only ones that come to mind are Bearger, Crystal Deerclops, and the two final bosses.

I think it's fine if Spectral Cure All can't just tank the two final bosses and it's also okay if Wendy has a few bosses that she's just not a good matchup against.

Twin destroy abi within 3 dashes before. you can start with that.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I'd probably just divide the typical time it takes to fight a boss by 30 seconds.

Fairnuff lol

[Lardee]

Just now, Tranoze said:

Twin destroy abi within 3 dashes before. you can start with that.

Fighting the twins using Wendy requires no more skill than as Wilson. The difference is just strategy.

In the event that the twins do turn on Abigail, you just resummon her since getting killed in 1 hit isn't all that different than getting killed in 3 rapid hits.

[Arcwell]

11 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

It appears you have misinterpreted what I said; golly, that seems to be a common occurrence around here!

I'm actually open to hear out Lardee's suggestions for Team Spirit; I was just under the assumption that he didn't have any.

My mistake. The initial tone sounded hostile but it's clear from the responses that wasn't the intention.

[Lardee]

Just now, Fitzee said:

Now @Lardee, let's say the player tag was kept, but healing elixirs on Abigails with said tag were half as effective; what would be your opinion on this, since you bring up Spectral Cure-All a lot for your arguments?

Still don't like it, but it's definitely a step up from what we have.

[WenericMember]

37 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

It's just as unfair to dismiss Lardee's opinion as it is to dismiss any of our opinions.

Personally though, I don't think Klei will do much to the Team Spirit skills (aside from bug fixes) even if the community universally agrees that a particular idea is good. They seemed adamant about the idea of cooldowns on the Willow beta and I would imagine the same holds true here. Would love to be proven wrong though.

I hope not, especially after promising theyd be looked at for nearly a month.

[Nikki Darks]

To people who are saying just not use it, I'll just put this here:

It is ultimately better for both sides to hit the middle ground of balance. rather than pushing the game towards being harder or easier, which are extremes.

When a game is balanced, it benefits both of the sides, because it doesn't make the game too easy, nor too hard.

Stop being selfish and demanding from people to play like you.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

To people who are saying just not use it, I'll just put this here:

It is ultimately better for both sides to hit the middle ground of balance. rather than pushing the game towards being harder or easier, which are extremes.

When a game is balanced, it benefits both of the sides, because it doesn't make the game too easy, nor too hard.

Stop being selfish and demanding from people to play like you.

Our dear designer once said that if you don't like it just turn it off you would lose nothing.

I guess you should argue with him first.

[DegenerateFurry]

14 hours ago, Lardee said:

Fighting the twins using Wendy requires no more skill than as Wilson. The difference is just strategy.

In the event that the twins do turn on Abigail, you just resummon her since getting killed in 1 hit isn't all that different than getting killed in 3 rapid hits.

Wow, cool. 

Did you know that the majority of players don't have the knowledge, skills, or keyboard/mouse preference to keep Abigail from getting hit at all in a twins fight? In fact, most struggle with the twins regardless of character choice! 

You seem to struggle to consider perspectives other than your own.

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Wow, cool. 

Did you know that the majority of players don't have the knowledge, skills, or keyboard/mouse preference to keep Abigail from getting hit at all in a twins fight? In fact, most struggle with the twins regardless of character choice! 

You seem to struggle to consider perspectives other than your own.

Are the majority of players capable of beating Deerclops? If so, please cite your source.

[Nikki Darks]

30 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Our dear designer once said that if you don't like it just turn it off you would lose nothing.

I guess you should argue with him first.

Who is "our dear designer"...?

Also, I am suggesting a middle ground option instead of going into either extreme here? If you're bothered by that, it is pointless to reply to you.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

To people who are saying just not use it, I'll just put this here:

It is ultimately better for both sides to hit the middle ground of balance. rather than pushing the game towards being harder or easier, which are extremes.

When a game is balanced, it benefits both of the sides, because it doesn't make the game too easy, nor too hard.

Stop being selfish and demanding from people to play like you.

Alternatively.. play games that have difficulty modes that drastically differ from one another and completely shake up the gameplay and rules in different and unique ways.

Without mentioning games outside of DST- Lights Out Mode shouldn’t have characters with Infinity Night Vision and the ability to never die in darkness.

WITH Mentioning other games: Lego Fortnite, Minecraft, State of Decay 2. These games don’t just change one THING (dying is permanent) they change multiple things… From less resources to nastier enemy types, to Overpowered broken abilities and items being unuseable, to having longer healing Animations…

It seems to me that Klei just tries to apply a one size fits all bandaid to their gameplay and that’s just… it’s completely unhealthy for the game, it’s playerbase, and their varying skill levels.

I hate the phrase “don’t like it, don’t use it” Am I expected to just NOT use Winona’s portable spotlights or Willows Dwarf Star while playing Lights Out Mode?

No, instead what should happen here is that new animations and challenges are added that prevent them from being easy mode wins, such as: Having shadow hands come for Willows Star, unscrew the lightbulbs out of Winona’s spotlights.

Add a new quote from Charlie herself “You can’t dodge all my tricks forever..” (kills Winona in Darkness if she stays in it too long on Lights Out Mode)

Telling a Wendy player not to spec skills into Immortal Abby if they want to be challenged is almost like telling a Wolfgang player to only fight while in Puny mode.

See? The Dont like it don’t use it excuse just doesn’t fly.

Instead Klei needs to stop being lazy, and if fans playing on hardcore want harsher more crippling player downsides, then in this specific mode… maybe give them that? And if fans are playing on very easy maybe they shouldn’t be expected to fight 27,500 hp raid bosses or base destroying giant worms that bring their health down to 1%? 

The scale tips both ways.. and the only way Klei is ever going to balance it out, is if they play other games like Lego Fortnite for example: to understand more clearly that different difficulty settings, need more different gameplay rules, new ai behavior changes, crafting recipes for things requiring more or less ingredients… locking the player out of being able to change certain settings on Hard Mode etc.

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Who is "our dear designer"...?

Also, I am suggesting a middle ground option instead of going into either extreme here? If you're bothered by that, it is pointless to reply to you.

Was not bothered by your opinion.

Just point out that this is a quote from our designer when they streamed about the giant worm.

Additionally details - i guess this designer is who take responsibility for current Wendy skill tree.

[DegenerateFurry]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Are the majority of players capable of beating Deerclops? If so, please cite your source.

If they're not, that's another good reason not to take into account people who abuse animation cancelling when trying to balance the game to be fun for most of its playerbase.

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

If they're not, that's another good reason not to take into account people who abuse animation cancelling when trying to balance the game to be fun for most of its playerbase.

If the majority of players aren't capable of beating Deerclops, does this mean that everything harder than Deerclops needs to be nerfed so that the game is balanced for most of the playerbase?

[DegenerateFurry]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

If the majority of players aren't capable of beating Deerclops, does this mean that everything harder than Deerclops needs to be nerfed?

Nah, it means that Klei needs to work on some way to teach players how to do basic kiting, because basic kiting is a reasonable expectation to have of players. Animation canceling (which is an exploit) is not. Knowing every single obscure player-specific strategy is not. Being able to position yourself and Abigail perfectly so that Abigail is never in the line of Spazmatism's charges is not. Leading Fuelweaver across his arena, knowing instinctually when he's going to do his bone cage slam, and running to the opposite side of the arena with perfect timing to avoid needing to use a lazy explorer is not.

[Lardee]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Nah, it means that Klei needs to work on some way to teach players how to do basic kiting, because basic kiting is a reasonable expectation to have of players. 

So the game should be balanced around the majority of players, but it also shouldn't be balanced around the majority of players.

Seems like the real argument is that the game should be balanced around DegenerateFurry.

[DegenerateFurry]

3 minutes ago, Lardee said:

So the game should be balanced around the majority of players, but it also shouldn't be balanced around the majority of players.

Seems like the real argument is that the game should be balanced around DegenerateFurry.

No, I'm saying - and as would be obvious if you'd stop being disingenuous for a second - that it is a failing of the game and not its balance if the playerbase can't fight basic bosses like Deerclops. The mark of a good game is teaching its players how to play it as they play. DOOM Eternal achieves that while being pretty difficult, but DST is one full of trial and error and looking up tutorials. It's good if you're willing to do that (Terraria's a similar case), but it's still a flaw in its core design that'd be difficult (albeit not impossible) to correct.

Your argument on balance only ever amounts to "you're just not skilled enough and that's your fault". You seem to think the game should be balanced exclusively around your skill level, which is absurd since you're easily in the top percentage.