Immortal Abigail erodes Wendy's identity.

[arubaro]

15 hours ago, Tranoze said:

This is what happened with people watch title without watch the video. Lardee clearly stated this is how tanky she is with chucking potions continuously. Farming **** tons of potions is not "literally no effort"

Each potions is 40 damage dealt to wendy = 1 pieogy, plus other resources, let call them armor price. You have to use them every 30 secs if you want abi to be this tanky.
 

Sure but the video is showcasing how much she can tank without the intervention of the player. In a real scenario you will need fighting with her which makes this perk very strong since only a very unskilled player would lose abigail making her downside non existence and her deep gameplay a boring and bland disaster for casuals

Ofc you and the rest of the eco chamber of making the game dumb proof are against balancing this

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Sure but the video is showcasing how much she can tank without the intervention of the player. In a real scenario you will need fighting with her which makes this perk very strong since only a very unskilled player would lose abigail making her downside non existence and her deep gameplay a boring and bland disaster for casuals

Ofc you and the rest of the eco chamber of making the game dumb proof are against balancing this

I'd personally be alright with Klei making the healing less effective here if the Team Spirit skills got significant buffs (in the form of lowered/removed cooldowns and cast times) that'd allow us to keep Abigail just as alive as this skill does, but in a different way. 

The best possible Team Spirit rework, if you ask me, would also let you press a number after opening the flower that corresponds to each skill so you don't have to use the mouse to click it. It'd make it very intuitive to use. I don't know how possible that is, though.

[Lardee]

12 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

No, I'm saying - and as would be obvious if you'd stop being disingenuous for a second - that it is a failing of the game and not its balance if the playerbase can't fight basic bosses like Deerclops. 

Your argument on balance only ever amounts to "you're just not skilled enough and that's your fault". 

"Basic" is a completely subjective term. If the majority of players are incapable of beating Deerclops, then Deerclops isn't a basic boss. You calling it a basic boss would be you going against the majority of players which, according to you, is wrong.

Next, by your logic, if the majority of players can't beat Deerclops, then it would mean that non-basic bosses like Dragonfly, Twins of Terror etc would need to be nerfed.

 

I have never argued on the basis of balance, let alone balanced around my skill level. I don't know how to beat Armored Bearger with Abigail. I can't beat Fuelweaver with the Weremoose. I couldn't beat Crab King or Bee Queen with it as well. There was a time when I couldn't beat any raid bosses.

At no point did I ever say that the game should be changed because it's too difficult.

[Mysterious box]

13 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'd personally be alright with Klei making the healing less effective here if the Team Spirit skills got significant buffs (in the form of lowered/removed cooldowns and cast times) that'd allow us to keep Abigail just as alive as this skill does, but in a different way. 

The best possible Team Spirit rework, if you ask me, would also let you press a number after opening the flower that corresponds to each skill so you don't have to use the mouse to click it. It'd make it very intuitive to use. I don't know how possible that is, though.

I don't think nerfing the healing really solves anything since you could simply unsummon her when her hp got low and since she's so durable and you can see her hp it feels like she'll only die if you actively ignore her hp bar it's why I'm recommending locking this as a post rift option instead as it's not like she really needs this option in the early game anyway.

[DegenerateFurry]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

"Basic" is a completely subjective term. If the majority of players are incapable of beating Deerclops, then Deerclops isn't a basic boss. You calling it a basic boss would be you going against the majority of players which, according to you, is wrong.

Well, no. Deerclops and Treeguards are both objectively basic in a game mechanics sense. They walk towards you, have a consistent attack animation, do it at a specific interval, have a slow enough attack that you can dodge it if you start moving when they do their tell, and only do those things (barring Winter's Feast Deerclops). There are only two points of failure during their fights:

1. Not realizing that running away periodically to avoid getting hit is an option, and

2. Failing to properly run away to avoid getting hit.

I've played with enough newbie players that I can assure you, the first of those is a thing.

The second point of failure would be made far more intuitive to overcome with some kind of attack range indicator. I can attest personally that those are very useful for learning how to fight enemies in this game - using one is how I went from avoiding boss fights like the plague to actively seeking them out. Maybe Klei should add one that can be turned off in the settings; people who play video games do generally know not to stand in a suddenly-appearing glowing circle at their feet, after all.

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I have never argued on the basis of balance, let alone balanced around my skill level. I don't know how to beat Armored Bearger with Abigail. I can't beat Fuelweaver with the Weremoose. I couldn't beat Crab King or Bee Queen with it as well. There was a time when I couldn't beat any raid bosses.

At no point did I ever say that the game should be changed because it's too hard for me.

Every single time you reference players not being skilled enough when people are talking about game balance (as you did on your thread about Abigail's player tag, to use a recent example), it is a dismissal of people who are less skilled than you. Even bringing up skill levels ("you should just learn how to position yourself perfectly and consistently unsummon Abigail before she gets hit so that she doesn't go down", paraphrased) does this when you bring it up in response to people arguing that something's balance needs to be changed or kept the same. 

The difference between what I'm saying (that Deerclops and treeguards are mechanically basic) and your statements about skill is that I don't see it as a personal failing if people struggle with learning how to juggle multiple game mechanics while fighting the more difficult bosses. I don't see it as a personal failing to not know how to kite because I can get why you wouldn't, particularly if you're new. I'm willing to say the game is flawed and should do a better job of teaching its players without them having to use mods or look up player-made tutorials on YouTube to learn it. Until that's fixed, give people who're still learning a chance to experience more of the game.

[lio516]

你可以稍微减少治疗药水回报者的数量，但我不认为添加 ggamer 标签是一件坏事，它不会影响 Abigail 在日常游戏中死亡的几率，而且它让他在 Boss 战中活得更久

[Lardee]

22 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, no. Deerclops and Treeguards are both objectively basic in a game mechanics sense. They walk towards you, have a consistent attack animation, do it at a specific interval, have a slow enough attack that you can dodge it if you start moving when they do their tell, and only do those things (barring Winter's Feast Deerclops). There are only two points of failure during their fights:

1. Not realizing that running away periodically to avoid getting hit is an option, and

2. Failing to properly run away to avoid getting hit.

I've played with enough newbie players that I can assure you, the first of those is a thing.

This is just an argument for why you feel it's basic. There is no objective definition for basic. 

There's no way to objectively prove Deerclops is a basic boss. It's seems basic to you. If the majority of players don't think it's basic, then it's not. 

And then there's the point about non-basic bosses like Dragonfly and Twins of Terror who would necessarily be nerfed to Deerclops-level if the game is to be balanced around the majority of players.

22 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Every single time you reference players not being skilled enough when people are talking about game balance (as you did on your thread about Abigail's player tag, to use a recent example), it is a dismissal of people who are less skilled than you. Even bringing up skill levels ("you should just learn how to position yourself perfectly and consistently unsummon Abigail before she gets hit so that she doesn't go down", paraphrased) does this when you bring it up in response to people arguing that something's balance needs to be changed or kept the same. 

I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm disagreeing with opinions. The question is: what is the basis of my disagreement? You made the claim the basis of my disagreement is that I want the game balanced around me. That is a false claim. 

Bringing up skill levels to make the point that what we currently have offers solutions for all skill levels has nothing to do with balancing the game around me. It's got nothing to do with balance other than higher skill should be rewarded relative to lower skill gameplay. 

 

22 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The difference between what I'm saying (that Deerclops and treeguards are mechanically basic) and your statements about skill is that I don't see it as a personal failing if people struggle with learning how to juggle multiple game mechanics while fighting the more difficult bosses. I don't see it as a personal failing to not know how to kite because I can get why you wouldn't, particularly if you're new. I'm willing to say the game is flawed and should do a better job of teaching its players without them having to use mods or look up player-made tutorials on YouTube to learn it. 

I don't see any success or failure in a video game as a personal failing. Skill is one element of success. If you don't want to invest in the skill, then you have other options that require less skill. Those options might not be as rewarding as the higher skilled option, but they are still there. That's perfectly fine.  What's not fine is saying "I should be able to be successful playing the game how I want without increasing my skill because I feel like it". 

[DegenerateFurry]

11 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This is just an argument for why you feel it's basic. There is no objective definition for basic. 

There's no way to objectively prove Deerclops is a basic boss. It's seems basic to you. If the majority of players don't think it's basic, then it's not. 

And then there's the point about non-basic bosses like Dragonfly and Twins of Terror who would necessarily be nerfed to Deerclops-level if the game is to be balanced around the majority of players.

I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm disagreeing with opinions. The question is: what is the basis of my disagreement? You made the claim the basis of my disagreement is that I want the game balanced around me. That is a false claim. 

Bringing up skill levels to make the point that what we currently have offers solutions for all skill levels has nothing to do with balancing the game around me. It's got nothing to do with balance other than higher skill should be rewarded relative to lower skill gameplay. 

 

I don't see any success or failure in a video game as a personal failing. Skill is one element of success. If you don't want to invest in the skill, then you have other options that require less skill. Those options might not be as rewarding as the higher skilled option, but they are still there. That's perfectly fine.  What's not fine is saying "I should be able to be successful playing the game how I want without increasing my skill because I feel like it". 

I'm just gonna make use of the ignore feature and I recommend that you do the same. You care more about pointlessly arguing semantics than reaching any kind of common understanding.

[SilverSpoon]

Before to check player tag Abigail is OP or not, I want you are able to check if a duplicate thread already exists... Same video, same context...

I wrote my opinion in that other thread but I'll write it again.

Before the player tag, Abigail was difficult to survive in boss battles unless she was always Spectral Cure-All filled, even if you neglected Wendy's control and  worked hard to control Abigail.
Now Abigail has enough defense to tank bosses if you always keep her Spectral Cure-All filled. The test video also shows that Abigail cannot be tanked unless she is Spectral Cure-All filled.
And if the player controls Abigail properly, they can save Spectral Cure-All and give her the effects of other elixirs at the same time.
Those who say that "Abigail doesn't need a player tag" can save 3 skill tree points and show off their incredible skills.

In conclusion, it's well-balanced.

[SpookyXy]

38 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This is just an argument for why you feel it's basic. There is no objective definition for basic. 

There's no way to objectively prove Deerclops is a basic boss. It's seems basic to you. If the majority of players don't think it's basic, then it's not. 

And then there's the point about non-basic bosses like Dragonfly and Twins of Terror who would necessarily be nerfed to Deerclops-level if the game is to be balanced around the majority of players.

I'm not dismissing anyone. I'm disagreeing with opinions. The question is: what is the basis of my disagreement? You made the claim the basis of my disagreement is that I want the game balanced around me. That is a false claim. 

Bringing up skill levels to make the point that what we currently have offers solutions for all skill levels has nothing to do with balancing the game around me. It's got nothing to do with balance other than higher skill should be rewarded relative to lower skill gameplay. 

 

I don't see any success or failure in a video game as a personal failing. Skill is one element of success. If you don't want to invest in the skill, then you have other options that require less skill. Those options might not be as rewarding as the higher skilled option, but they are still there. That's perfectly fine.  What's not fine is saying "I should be able to be successful playing the game how I want without increasing my skill because I feel like it". 

Isn't Deerclops the oldest boss in the whole franchise? Generally the first boss you encounter, the first boss you are expected to beat considering she is one of the only bosses in the game that will come to you, objectively one of the easiest fights, can be mass produced with hostile flares, appears in multiple trailers and posters, they even added her to Terraria. I don't know by what metric Deerclops wouldn't be considered a basic boss.

[SilverSpoon]

2 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

To people who are saying just not use it, I'll just put this here:

It is ultimately better for both sides to hit the middle ground of balance. rather than pushing the game towards being harder or easier, which are extremes.

When a game is balanced, it benefits both of the sides, because it doesn't make the game too easy, nor too hard.

Stop being selfish and demanding from people to play like you.

Nope.

As long as people who ask for In-Game-Nerf prioritize alleging how stupid the people who don't want In-Game-Nerf are instead of presenting data, tests, or arguing with Klei, our "Just don't use it" card will be valid.

[Lardee]

55 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I'm just gonna make use of the ignore feature and I recommend that you do the same. You care more about pointlessly arguing semantics than reaching any kind of common understanding.

Definitions are not semantics. Basic is by definition a relative word. I can call anything I want basic, I can explain why I feel it's basic. That doesn't mean it is basic.

This highlights the fundamental difference between our perspectives: My views are based on principles. Your (and most of the people who are on your side of the argument) views are based on perspective.

I think Wendy's weaknesses should not be removed because I believe in the principle that skill trees shouldn't remove weaknesses. That's a principled argument.

You think Wendy's weaknesses should be removed because you personally find think it's too difficult to play around this weakness. That's an argument based solely in your personal perspective of "too difficult".

18 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

Isn't Deerclops the oldest boss in the whole franchise? Generally the first boss you encounter, the first boss you are expected to beat considering she is one of the only bosses in the game that will come to you, objectively one of the easiest fights, can be mass produced with hostile flares, appears in multiple trailers and posters, they even added her to Terraria. I don't know by what metric Deerclops wouldn't be considered a basic boss.

I share the perspective that Deerclops a basic boss. I believe Deerclops is objectively one of the easiest bosses in DST. That doesn't make it an objectively basic boss.

I could just as well make the argument that Deerclops isn't a basic boss because it comes at you out of no-where during Winter which means you have to deal with freezing, it comes at you at night which means you have to deal with light, it has an AoE attack, it mows down structures, it has a crazy strong insanity aura, its attacks freeze, it has enormous range and does double damage to familiars.

Compare that to fighting a hound or a spider and Deerclops is way more complex. 

You won't agree with that argument because your point of reference is simply different than a newer player. It doesn't mean either of you are objectively right.

[SilverSpoon]

7 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I think Wendy's weaknesses should not be removed because I believe in the principle that skill trees shouldn't remove weaknesses. That's a principled argument.

Wendy's Damage Modifier still 0.75x, and this Skill tree won't remove weaknesses.

[Lardee]

38 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Before the player tag, Abigail was difficult to survive in boss battles unless she was always Spectral Cure-All filled, even if you neglected Wendy's control and  worked hard to control Abigail.
Now Abigail has enough defense to tank bosses if you always keep her Spectral Cure-All filled. The test video also shows that Abigail cannot be tanked unless she is Spectral Cure-All filled.
And if the player controls Abigail properly, they can save Spectral Cure-All and give her the effects of other elixirs at the same time.
Those who say that "Abigail doesn't need a player tag" can save 3 skill tree points and show off their incredible skills.

In conclusion, it's well-balanced.

The bolded is not true. It should read "Abigail was too difficult for me to keep alive in some boss battles"

Why is it just assumed that Abigail should be able to tank the strongest bosses in the game with Spectral Cure All?

 

[SilverSpoon]

To Klei : I'm posting this because Author is referencing "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos in this thread. I'm not spamming so please don't delete this post.

To all big fan of "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos: The GigaChad Canadian Lumberjack's "Treeguard Feller II" can not just tank but also kill with "no effort". Just to be on the safe side, I also recorded proof video, but please don't be so dogged as to make me edit it.

 

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

To Klei : I'm posting this because Author is referencing "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos in this thread. I'm not spamming so please don't delete this post.

To all big fan of "Blessed Sisturn III is OP" videos: The GigaChad Canadian Lumberjack's "Treeguard Feller II" can not just tank but also kill with "no effort". Just to be on the safe side, I also recorded proof video, but please don't be so dogged as to make me edit it.

 

Yeah, that's a good point. Since we're for some reason considering oodles of prep time to be "no effort", logically, Woodie's treeguards perk is "no effort" that lets you even kill Misery Toadstool while AFK (a feat Wendy still can't achieve). 

[Lardee]

"oodles of prep time"

 

[WenericMember]

24 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, that's a good point. Since we're for some reason considering oodles of prep time to be "no effort", logically, Woodie's treeguards perk is "no effort" that lets you even kill Misery Toadstool while AFK (a feat Wendy still can't achieve). 

Correct. It is.

[DegenerateFurry]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Correct. It is.

Do you think that building redstone-based farms in Minecraft is "no effort", then? It's literally the same (you need to do specific things and prepare a bunch to achieve an alternate way of accomplishing a task), so it should be "no effort" by your logic, but you'd get laughed out of the Minecraft community if you said that about redstone farms, and you should get the same treatment here for saying this kind of thing about farming over a stack of treeguard idols.

[ColdHeaven]

18 minutes ago, Lardee said:

"oodles of prep time"

 

There's no winning, casuals outnumber you by 1 to 20

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Do you think that building redstone-based farms in Minecraft is "no effort", then? It's literally the same (you need to do specific things and prepare a bunch to achieve an alternate way of accomplishing a task), so it should be "no effort" by your logic, but you'd get laughed out of the Minecraft community if you said that about redstone farms, and you should get the same treatment here for saying this kind of thing about farming over a stack of treeguard idols.

Its almost as is minecraft is a different game, with different focuses.  

How many bosses does minecraft have? 

Minecrafts a game about self expression and creativity. Its a coin flip if any new update will add any form of new challenge.

DST bills itself as a difficult game. They add new challenges basically every update. 

Redstone farms do not invalidate the new primary focus of the game.

 

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Its almost as is minecraft is a different game, with different focuses.  

How many bosses does minecraft have? 

Minecrafts a game about self expression and creativity. Its a coin flip if any new update will add any form of new challenge.

DST bills itself as a difficult game. They add new challenges basically every update. 

Redstone farms do not invalidate the new primary focus of the game.

 

Cool opinion that DST has no sandbox focus. Remind me, what's the sawhorse for again? Why can we move turfs? Why can we make fake ruins turfs? What gameplay function do chairs fill? 

Oh right, yeah, it's all about player expression, just like how Wickerbottom and Winona's automated farming options are.

Funny how those things would exist in a game that you seem to think should require a very narrow range of playstyles.

[SilverSpoon]

26 minutes ago, Lardee said:

"oodles of prep time"

I hate boo after You've made this kind of verification video, but I don't think you can say like that about a video that only shows you collecting  pipspooks needed for Spectral Cure All and crafting.

If I made a video called "The cost of Treeguard idle" where I only collected grass used for Treeguard idle and crafted, everyone would say it was misleading.

[Yifei_]

6 hours ago, Lardee said:

I don't see any success or failure in a video game as a personal failing. Skill is one element of success. If you don't want to invest in the skill, then you have other options that require less skill. Those options might not be as rewarding as the higher skilled option, but they are still there. That's perfectly fine.  What's not fine is saying "I should be able to be successful playing the game how I want without increasing my skill because I feel like it". 

You can check out this video: "One HP Wes, Eternal Winter, Eternal Night, Eternal Rain, Ruins Cleared from the Start."

Full process: 封神！饥荒大神一血维斯冬夜雨开局速通远古！全流程解说附技术详解_单机游戏热门视频

Brief version: ♿几分钟看懂一血维斯速通远古♿_单机游戏热门视频

The official Klei account on Bilibili has acknowledged this video.
The creator of this video put in a lot of effort and practice to improve their understanding and skills in the game to achieve such a feat. However, I haven't seen the official game set Wes to have 1 HP, or the ruins to be in an extremely cold rainy state. Why doesn't the official game make these settings the default? With "sufficient" practice, one can reach this level.
It’s unreasonable to expect other players to match your impeccable skill ceiling. If we really talk about the ceiling, the content in this video represents that. I don’t want to see the mindset of judging others by your own standard, which denies the differences in player skill levels.

[Lardee]

10 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I hate boo after You've made this kind of verification video, but I don't think you can say like that about a video that only shows you collecting  pipspooks needed for Spectral Cure All and crafting.

If I made a video called "The cost of Treeguard idle" where I only collected grass used for Treeguard idle and crafted, everyone would say it was misleading.

I only showed the pipspook part because that's by far the most time consuming portion. Wendy naturally gets tons of glands and perogies due to Abigail trivializing spider hordes. I don't even think I have to explain why grass is an issue.

And of course you get all the healing you need once you get jellybeans.

Contrast that to Woodie who needs to get all the pinecones, set up all the trees around the boss, get all the living logs and nightmare fuel and even then it only works on some AoE bosses.

 

As someone who has played lots of Wendy and Woodie, there's no comparison.

6 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

You can check out this video: "One HP Wes, Eternal Winter, Eternal Night, Eternal Rain, Ruins Cleared from the Start."

Full process: 封神！饥荒大神一血维斯冬夜雨开局速通远古！全流程解说附技术详解_单机游戏热门视频

Brief version: ♿几分钟看懂一血维斯速通远古♿_单机游戏热门视频

The official Klei account on Bilibili has acknowledged this video.
The creator of this video put in a lot of effort and practice to improve their understanding and skills in the game to achieve such a feat. However, I haven't seen the official game set Wes to have 1 HP, or the ruins to be in an extremely cold rainy state. Why doesn't the official game make these settings the default? With "sufficient" practice, one can reach this level.
It’s unreasonable to expect other players to match your impeccable skill ceiling. If we really talk about the ceiling, the content in this video represents that. I don’t want to see the mindset of judging others by your own standard, which denies the differences in player skill levels.

I never said anyone has to match my skill ceiling. I don't base any of my arguments on my level of skill.