Immortal Abigail erodes Wendy's identity.

[WenericMember]

So... this video. 

Its fairly obvious why the skill is op, even wth literally no effort, Abbys bulk is 4-10 x its original value.

However, the bigger issue is how it does so by completely eradicating what is unique about Wendy.

To start, what makes Wendy different from Wolfgang? Abigail. Specifically how Wendy is dependant on Abigail for dps. In exhange, Wendy gets AOE, sanity reduction, and overall more versatility. This dynamic in combat has disappeared, as the optimal strat is to play like any other survivor, as abigail adds additional dps for no effort in combat.

By removing the skill involved in keeping abigail alive, Wendy moves closer to being like Wolfgang rather than emphasizing what makes her unique.

Potion diversity is also constricted. This skill  exclusively doubles the effectiveness of Wendys healing potions, making all of the other options, thay already struggled for relevancy, obsolete.

The alignment setup also crumbles before this skill. The alignment choice between effortless survivability and damage is eroded when Abby has a surplus of survivability without alignment. Even if gesalt Abby is fixed, theres no reason to use her over the more accessible vlessed sisturn.

I believe the point of a skill tree is to promote what makes a character unique. Overall, this skill does the opposite, promoting a playstyle more similar to that of any other survivor, just with a bit of a uniqie flair.

[Tranoze]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

 even wth literally no effort, Abbys bulk is 4-10 x its original value.

This is what happened with people watch title without watch the video. Lardee clearly stated this is how tanky she is with chucking potions continuously. Farming **** tons of potions is not "literally no effort"

Each potions is 40 damage dealt to wendy = 1 pieogy, plus other resources, let call them armor price. You have to use them every 30 secs if you want abi to be this tanky.
 

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

This is what happened with people watch title without watch the video. Lardee clearly stated this is how tanky she is with chucking potions continuously. Farming **** tons of potions is not "literally no effort"

Each potions is 40 damage dealt to wendy = 1 pieogy, plus other resources, let call them armor price. You have to use them every 30 secs if you want abi to be this tanky.
 

Yes because spider glands and tents are a hard resource for wendy to obtain.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

Abi's "player tag" allows players to choose whether to enable it or not. If you don't like it, you don't use it.

[WenericMember]

This is also, regardless, irrelevant to the main point of the post. 

[Tranoze]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Yes because spider glands and tents are a hard resource for wendy to obtain.

crafting and farming them take times. Even sleeping take time.
Let say a wicker make a grass and twigs farm for you so you have infinity twigs/grass for you to use for tents + heart, you farm spider for food + heal ...
The same wicker can also make a bird farm that you can make 30 stack of blowdart and you can attack boss from afar.

[Xplan]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Yes because spider glands and tents are a hard resource for wendy to obtain.

time and player's enthusiasm are hard resources.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yes because spider glands and tents are a hard resource for wendy to obtain.

A truth relative with spider - nurse spiders are unachievable resources for Wendy to obtain.

Guess how immortal of Webber's followers here?

[WenericMember]

Just now, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

Abi's "player tag" allows players to choose whether to enable it or not. If you don't like it, you don't use it.

Keeping a broken thing in and putting it on the player to not use is bad game design. Besides its tied to the sisturn in a mp game, that may not be possible.

[aidankocherhans]

27 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Its fairly obvious why the skill is op

You would think

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Xplan said:

time and player's enthusiasm are hard resources.

Youd be farming spiders anyway for meat, and you sleep during the night for healing. Not exactly a big additional cost.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

3分钟前，WenericMember说：

把一个坏掉的东西放在里面，然后把它放在玩家身上，让玩家不要使用，这是糟糕的游戏设计。除了它与mp游戏中的姐妹们绑定外，这可能是不可能的。

you don't like it, it doesn't mean that everyone doesn't like it. You can't impong your ideas on others. If you don't like this moon flowers, you can put other flowers in.

[Lardee]

8 minutes ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

Abi's "player tag" allows players to choose whether to enable it or not. If you don't like it, you don't use it.

[Tranoze]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Keeping a broken thing in and putting it on the player to not use is bad game design. Besides its tied to the sisturn in a mp game, that may not be possible.

Is it strong? yes.

Is it op/broken? I dont think so. Even wes can tank some boss as long as he have enough pieogy and marble suit. Best example is maxwell, as he can easily farm marble and healing food. But do you see maxwell use this tanking strategy?

Do i like it? not really. But it the only skill allow abi to be useable with 100% up time vs new enemies so far. So i wouldnt try to remove it.

Do i have another solution? Yes but with another drawback - Stick together, which make abi op if you can perfectly dodge bosses.
 

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Is walking away from enemies right before they attack consider a "dominant strategy" since it work on every single enemies?

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Is walking away from enemies right before they attack consider a "dominant strategy" since it work on every single enemies?

Are you asking me if kiting is a dominant strategy?

[Xplan]

Just now, WenericMember said:

Youd be farming spiders anyway for meat, and you sleep during the night for healing. Not exactly a big additional cost.

What if i prefer farming Tallbird, werepigs, Lureplant, bees or just vegetables.

must i change?

By the way, is there anyone heal themselves by sleeping? i mean watching your character sleeping having nothing to do but wait is ridiculous.

[Tranoze]

Just now, Lardee said:

Are you asking me if kiting is a dominant strategy?

Im asking you if kiting is a bad game design.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

You know, @WenericMember, I'm sure Lardee would agree with us that Abigail's survivability should ideally come from Team Spirit. While I would ask him to provide suggestions to improve the branch, his veteran self would say something along the lines of "They're completely fine! Nothing needs to be done with them!" without realizing that the average playerbase doesn't have the experience or reflexes neccessary to work around clunkiness.

I dont know.

It would be presumptive to judge.

[Lardee]

Just now, Tranoze said:

Im asking you if kiting is a bad game design.

I don't think so because that's too generic to be considered a dominant strategy. It's like saying dodging is bad game design because that's how you typically avoid damage.

[somethin]

4 minutes ago, Xplan said:

What if i prefer farming Tallbird, werepigs, Lureplant, bees or just vegetables.

must i change?

By the way, is there anyone heal themselves by sleeping? i mean watching your character sleeping having nothing to do but wait is ridiculous.

Me. I play Wormwood. Sleeping is literally the easiest source of hp for me. And I enjoy the downtime. Soooooooo yeahhhhh we exist lmao

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

You know, @WenericMember, I'm sure Lardee would agree with us that Abigail's survivability should ideally come from Team Spirit. While I would ask him to provide suggestions to improve the branch, his veteran self would say something along the lines of "They're completely fine! Nothing needs to be done with them!" without realizing that the average playerbase doesn't have the neccessary experience, reflexes, mods or preference for KB+M to work around clunkiness.

I think her survivability should mostly come from either skill or Spectral Cure All. 

Team spirit is part of skill. Other parts of skill include boss specific strategies and controlling Abigail by positioning Wendy.

The less skilled the player base is, the more reliant they'd be on Spectral Cure All. They still have the option to succeed with Abigail, but it would come at the cost of more resources.

[Tranoze]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

I don't think so because that's too generic to be considered a dominant strategy. It's like saying dodging is bad game design because that's how you typically avoid damage.

That why i think it is neccessary to have "over prepared chuck healing" options.
There are 3 ways to kill boss in this game safely as i think:

Kiting it to death.
Face tank it to death.
Let it fight something else to death.

Which is why i think over prepared + face tank it to death is good alternative for people cant be good enough to dodge and learn every single boss pattern.

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

That why i think it is neccessary to have "over prepared chuck healing" options.
There are 3 ways to kill boss in this game safely as i think:

Kiting it to death.
Face tank it to death.
Let it fight something else to death.

Which is why i think over prepared + face tank it to death is good alternative for people cant be good enough to dodge and learn every single boss pattern.

But we've had the over prepared option for the longest time: Spectral Cure All. The skill tree already makes this option far more viable by slashing the cost of potions.

And in the event Abigail does die, we have a potion that makes that downside insignificant. 

[Arcwell]

3 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

You know, @WenericMember, I'm sure Lardee would agree with us that Abigail's survivability should ideally come from Team Spirit. While I would ask him to provide suggestions to improve the branch, his veteran self would say something along the lines of "They're completely fine! Nothing needs to be done with them!" without realizing that the average playerbase doesn't have the neccessary experience, reflexes, mods or preference for KB+M to work around clunkiness.

It's just as unfair to dismiss Lardee's opinion as it is to dismiss any of our opinions.

Personally though, I don't think Klei will do much to the Team Spirit skills (aside from bug fixes) even if the community universally agrees that a particular idea is good. They seemed adamant about the idea of cooldowns on the Willow beta and I would imagine the same holds true here. Would love to be proven wrong though.

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

1分钟前，Lardee说：

但长期以来，我们一直有过度准备的选项：Spectral Cure All。技能树已经通过削减药水成本使这个选项更加可行。

如果Abigail真的死了，我们有一种药水，可以使这种缺点变得微不足道。

This potion is not mandatory. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it.