Immortal Abigail erodes Wendy's identity.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

21 hours ago, Fitzee said:

You know, @WenericMember, I'm sure Lardee would agree with us that Abigail's survivability should ideally come from Team Spirit. While I would ask him to provide suggestions to improve the branch, his veteran self would say something along the lines of "They're completely fine! Nothing needs to be done with them!" without realizing that the average playerbase doesn't have the neccessary experience, reflexes, mods or preference for KB+M to work around clunkiness.

I think I mostly agree with this, and this is what would have made me a lot more interested in picking her up, for all the management that you'd have to do. It'd make her a much more technical character, which is what I thought we'd see out of her instead of.... well, this.

My original thought was that every command should have a .5-1 second universal cooldown to prevent over-queueing, and the commands would have their own individual timers of 4 seconds (the current delay on Attack At + Escape). But you could use Escape + another new command to essentially kite with Abigail using commands (a half-second Block, ideally, to reduce damage and maybe reflect a little back.) A complementary Block command would also be on a 4 second delay, so a 2 second delay when switching between the two, which is enough time to deal with most boss's attack periods, but it would also probably be fine and a little less forgiving if they were both on a 6 second cooldown instead. Attack At should also be adjusted to use Lunar Abigail's current damage, since it seems to just use a basic attack's worth of damage. But ultimately, I'd want full agency of Abigail with Teamwork, ideally. This way, Lunar Abigail is basically a minion you can command pretty effectively full-time from afar to get results, and it gives you more control of Shadow Abigail when she's attacking a boss alongside you. Both should die fairly quickly without Teamwork commands to dodge and block.

Testing would, of course, need to be done, and Escape's original functionality and intangibility will need to be returned (also for a half second). More importantly, the Lunar Blossom thing needs to go. (So does Ghastly Experience, with this amount of control. You should be punished for messing up that badly.)

I dunno, though. I just thought this would reward good technique when fighting alongside her, and be more fun than farming and spamming potions, or sitting there and mostly just watching with the old version of Lunar Abigail.

As always, I'm not a Wendy player, but I wanted to give her a real shot during the beta. Still not interested in her current condition, unfortunately, but I would definitely try her out with something like this, though I fear it could be a little bit clunky and might need better UX than the current pie menu. I don't understand how she keeps getting overtuned like this, though. It seems like nobody's properly testing these changes against bosses before being patched in...
 

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

 

Want me to share this post there?

[OMEGASCRUFF]

11 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

My posts? Here? I don't believe there's a need, as I did so already.

Unless you're referring to a post of your own.

Yeah, mine, haha. I'll link it there.

[Tranoze]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

"oodles of prep time"

 

If the prep time take too long compare to not prep at all when killing bosses, who would prep at all. Let assume you take anothet 1 mins for grass/gland/pierogy for 2 mins 40 total, +20 secs of walking between farm area, let say each potion cost 18 secs of prep for each potion.

For each 30 secs duration you need 18 secs prepare for a fight that that you deal 10% damage plus abi raw damage.

Effectively wilson use 30 secs to deal 30 secs worth of damage.

Wendy use 48 secs to deal 33 secs worth of damage plus abi damage.

45 secs worth of damage if wendy on beefalo.

[Lardee]

7 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

If the prep time take too long compare to not prep at all when killing bosses, who would prep at all. Let assume you take anothet 1 mins for grass/gland/pierogy for 2 mins 40 total, +20 secs of walking between farm area, let say each potion cost 18 secs of prep for each potion.

For each 30 secs duration you need 18 secs prepare for a fight that that you deal 10% damage plus abi raw damage.

Effectively wilson use 30 secs to deal 30 secs worth of damage.

Wendy use 48 secs to deal 33 secs worth of damage plus abi damage.

45 secs worth of damage if wendy on beefalo.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

[Tranoze]

Just now, Lardee said:

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

My point is prep time are not free, unlike testing mode where you can just c_give potions and pierogy, people have to spending time prepare fot them. And crafting 10 potions taking 3 mins total are not that cost effective since its not even better than no prep at all.

And cost effectiveness is the key, and most likely how old walter doesnt get played is because his prep time and bullet cost arent cost effective.

[Lardee]

21 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

My point is prep time are not free, unlike testing mode where you can just c_give potions and pierogy, people have to spending time prepare fot them. And crafting 10 potions taking 3 mins total are not that cost effective since its not even better than no prep at all.

And cost effectiveness is the key, and most likely how old walter doesnt get played is because his prep time and bullet cost arent cost effective.

...I never said it's not free. Cost effectiveness was the last reason old Walter didn't get played.

[Wendigail]

It should be emphasized that time is the most significant cost in DST. All supplies require time to pick, to farm, to collect. Players can also keep eating to stay alive, but making food and armor consumes a lot of resources , all need so much time and is not cost free
A compromise approach, I think since keep "Living" Abigail is more easier, the punishment for her "death again" can be appropriately increased, such as withering lune blossom in sisturn after death and cannot put them in for 1-2 days or removing ghastly experiment elixir.

Just like how players can easily survive, the cost of accidental death is high, and the things in your invnetory may be burned or eaten

[Yifei_]

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

I don't base any of my arguments on my level of skill.

No, you base your arguments on your level of skill. You should realize that adding the player tag is only "OP" or even useless for someone as skilled as you because your Abigail has great survivability, and you don’t need it. You use your Abigail's survival skills to set expectations for other players. If other players can't reach the level you deem acceptable, you demand that they "should add mods" or "need more practice."

[Lardee]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

No, you base your arguments on your level of skill. You should realize that adding the player tag is only "OP" or even useless for someone as skilled as you because your Abigail has great survivability, and you don’t need it. You use your Abigail's survival skills to set expectations for other players. If other players can't reach the level you deem acceptable, you demand that they "should add mods" or "need more practice."

Okay then show me an instance where I based an argument on my level of skill.

[Yifei_]

Just now, Lardee said:

Okay then show me an instance where I based an argument on my level of skill.

In my last post I have said: If other players can't reach the level you deem acceptable, you demand that they "should add mods" or "need more practice."
Do you need me to help you find your previous statement? I believe you should still remember it.

[Lardee]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

In my last post I have said: If other players can't reach the level you deem acceptable, you demand that they "should add mods" or "need more practice."
Do you need me to help you find your previous statement? I believe you should still remember it.

Not only did I not make this argument, but even if I did, that's not an argument on the basis of my skill.

[Yifei_]

17 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Not only did I not make this argument, but even if I did, that's not an argument on the basis of my skill.

At that time, I told you that I had watched your video. I practiced AF with Wendy for a long time, but the failure rate was still very high. The addition of this player tag can allow me to improve my fault tolerance in other ways. Then, you mocked me because I didn’t manage to use the DSA mod and thought I hadn’t reached the level you expected, needing additional practice. Your reply was in this screenshot, but unfortunately, that post was locked by the officials and is no longer accessible. That is an argument based on your skill.

[Lardee]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

At that time, I told you that I had watched your video. I practiced AF with Wendy for a long time, but the failure rate was still very high. The addition of this player tag can allow me to improve my fault tolerance in other ways. Then, you mocked me because I didn’t manage to use the DSA mod and thought I hadn’t reached the level you expected, needing additional practice. Your reply was in this screenshot, but unfortunately, that post was locked by the officials and is no longer accessible. That is an argument based on your skill.

I didn't mock you at all for not managing to use the DSA mod, nor did I mock you for not meeting the level I had expected or for anything in that conversation.

I asked you four questions because I thought you were approaching the conversation in good faith and genuinely wanted to help you succeed. 

IIRC it was DSA, watch my video, pause and hot keys. 

After you effectively said you were already doing all of that except pausing, I said that if you still can't do it then the solution is probably more practice.

No mockery, no basing anything on my skill level, no claims about you "reaching a level that I deem acceptable." 

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

I didn't mock you at all for not managing to use the DSA mod, nor did I mock you for not meeting the level I had expected or for anything in that conversation.

Alright, it might have been a language barrier that led to my misunderstanding of you. I'm really glad we cleared this up.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

@Lardee Seeing as you are an avid user of Don't Starve Alone, how bad are the cons for using it? I heard it doesn't behave well with rifts in particular. 

From my experience it may slightly affect rifts as in sometimes you sometimes have to be in the same shard in order for them to spawn or progress, but overall I've not noticed any major cons.

I've heard a lot of people say it makes their game crash, but that has never happened to me.

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

you were already doing all of that except pausing,

I just tested it on my own server, using pre-rift equipments (plus some assistance from Weather Pain) to defeat AF with the pause. Using the pause to give me reaction time indeed made it much simpler (although I still failed twice before succeeding). However, it's a pity that pausing isn't possible on public servers.

PS: I've added the Uncompromising Mode to my server, but this mod doesn't make significant changes to the AF battle, its overall impact on strategy is not substantial.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

I just tested it on my own server, using pre-rift equipments (plus some assistance from Weather Pain) to defeat AF with the pause. Using the pause to give me reaction time indeed made it much simpler (although I still failed twice before succeeding). However, it's a pity that pausing isn't possible on public servers.

PS: I've added the Uncompromising Mode to my server, but this mod doesn't make significant changes to the AF battle, its overall impact on strategy is not substantial.

Awesome man, congrats on being able to pull off one of the toughest but funnest fights in the game.

[SilverSpoon]

12 hours ago, Lardee said:

Contrast that to Woodie who needs to get all the pinecones, set up all the trees around the boss, get all the living logs and nightmare fuel and even then it only works on some AoE bosses.

As for Treeguard idle, if you use Were moose to kill Nightmare creatures in the ruins, you can get a ton of Shadow Fuel. If you can open the lift and kill Ickers, you can get even more and even easier. I would assert that living logs are almost free. The more you use Treeguard idle, the more you get. 

Also, regarding the types of bosses you can deal with, I was able to deal with all the bosses you presented in your evidence video, so I'm looking forward to your other evidence videos of bosses that Treeguard idle can't deal with but Abigail can. By the way, Abigail can't deal with Celestial Champion, but Treeguard idle can.

Another really important thing. In your video, It should be used Pipspook Quest I-III and Elixeirs Insight I-IV should on your evidence video. I verified it.

I don't know what your "intention" was in omitting this fact from the video. but I hold back to ask what your "intention" because I still believe that you're not doing this for trolling. However, this consumes 7 skill tree points, and if combine it with Blessed Sisturn III, it will cost a total of 10 skill tree points. On the other hand, Treeguard Feller II is only 3 skill tree points.

And Treeguard idle can not only tank, but also kill with "No effort". This is a critical advantage, right?

But that's not what I want to say. Whether you collect Spectral Cure All or Treeguard idle, and there are differences in actual operation, Both those have major common point.
- Can tank the boss with "No effort"
- Consume a lot of resources
Treeguard idle has existed as part of the balance for over a year and a half. Please don't assume that it's "This is OK, This is OP" based on only your standards. Please Please be open to our standards.

[Lardee]

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

As for Treeguard idle, if you use Were moose to kill Nightmare creatures in the ruins, you can get a ton of Shadow Fuel. If you can open the lift and kill Ickers, you can get even more and even easier. I would assert that living logs are almost free. The more you use Treeguard idle, the more you get. 

Now tell me how long it takes to go to the ruins, farm all that nightmare fuel, go to the boss arena, plant those pine cones, wait for them to grow, and kill those tree guards.

Then compare that to the time it takes to do one pipspook quest, pick some grass, and eat 2 jellybeans or farm some spiders. There is no comparison.

 

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Another really important thing. In your video, It should be used Pipspook Quest I-III and Elixeirs Insight I-IV should on your evidence video. I verified it

I don't know what your "intention" was in omitting this fact from the video. but I hold back to ask what your "intention" because I still believe that you're not doing this for trolling. However, this consumes 7 skill tree points, and if combine it with Blessed Sisturn III, it will cost a total of 10 skill tree points. On the other hand, Treeguard Feller II is only 3 skill tree points.

Why is this relevant? Pipsook Quest, Elixer Insight and Blessed Sisturn has far more applications than Treeguard Feller. No one picks these skills exclusively because they want to tank bosses.

 

2 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

And Treeguard idle can not only tank, but also kill with "No effort". This is a critical advantage, right?

But that's not what I want to say. Whether you collect Spectral Cure All or Treeguard idle, and there are differences in actual operation, Both those have major common point.
- Can tank the boss with "No effort"
- Consume a lot of resources
Treeguard idle has existed as part of the balance for over a year and a half. Please don't assume that it's "This is OK, This is OP" based on only your standards. Please Please be open to our standards.

Not only is character balance never been a thing in DST and should never be a thing in a PvE game, but trying to balance beating bosses with Tree Guard idols to Abigail is comparing apples to oranges. 

Tree Guard Idols legitimately beats bosses and very quickly. Abigail with the player tag and spectral cure doesn't solo bosses, and if she does it takes forever. These two abilities were never meant to "balance" each other out.

It's just another reason why comparing Abigail to Tree Guard idols is a nonsensical point.

[Koomin]

The comparison of Woodie's treeguards to player tag Abigail still makes no sense and is really derailing the discussion.  It seems like it is trying to shift the goal posts from "should we be trying to release Wendy's update with Abigail in a balanced and healthy spot that is fun for all players" to "which bosses can Woodie's treeguards solokill when you try to cheese them and how does that compare to Abigail".

[seven-rain]

温蒂的特殊处不正是在于阿比盖尔吗？我很高兴姐姐得到了应有的增强

Isn't Abigail what makes Wendy special? I'm glad my sister got the boost she deserved

[SilverSpoon]

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

Now tell me how long it takes to go to the ruins, farm all that nightmare fuel, go to the boss arena, plant those pine cones, wait for them to grow, and kill those tree guards.

Then compare that to the time it takes to do one pipspook quest, pick some grass, and eat 2 jellybeans or farm some spiders. There is no comparison.

If I did, will you be open to our standards? I don't like being told "it's no good after all" after testing it. and I definitely assertive killing Queen Bee is harder going to the ruins and collect Nightmare Fuel.

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

Why is this relevant? Pipsook Quest, Elixer Insight and Blessed Sisturn has far more applications than Treeguard Feller. No one picks these skills exclusively because they want to tank bosses.

When tanking bosses, Abigail always have to be Spectral cure-all filled, so there is no room for other elixirs. In that case, each insight will be for only "Blessed Sisturn III+Spectral cure-all spam combo". Further skill tree points are required to create other uses.

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

Not only is character balance never been a thing in DST and should never be a thing in a PvE game, but trying to balance beating bosses with Tree Guard idols to Abigail is comparing apples to oranges. 

Tree Guard Idols legitimately beats bosses and very quickly. Abigail with the player tag and spectral cure doesn't solo bosses, and if she does it takes forever. These two abilities were never meant to "balance" each other out.

It's just another reason why comparing Abigail to Tree Guard idols is a nonsensical point.

I said "Blessed Sisturn III can tank bosses prepare well-resourced", "Treeguard Feller II can kill bosses prepare well-resourced", and "Both Blessed Sisturn III an Treeguard Feller II are almost same  and need many resource so balanced". Period.

[Lardee]

24 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

If I did, will you be open to our standards? I don't like being told "it's no good after all" after testing it. and I definitely assertive killing Queen Bee is harder going to the ruins and collect Nightmare Fuel.

You're the one who compared using tree guards with spectral cure all. Testing to see if your comparison is legitimate is something you should have done before even making that argument.

Killing Bee Queen something very common for Wendy to do, and killing her once gives you enough heals to make 60-100 spectral cure alls.

24 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

When tanking bosses, Abigail always have to be Spectral cure-all filled, so there is no room for other elixirs. In that case, each insight will be for only "Blessed Sisturn III+Spectral cure-all spam combo". Further skill tree points are required to create other uses.

Is tanking bosses with Abigail the only thing Wendy will be doing?

24 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I said "Blessed Sisturn III can tank bosses prepare well-resourced", "Treeguard Feller II can kill bosses prepare well-resourced", and "Both Blessed Sisturn III an Treeguard Feller II are almost same  and need many resource so balanced". Period.

 

That's not all you said. You argued on the basis of "balance" citing Treeguard Feller as the standard. By that standard, Abigail should be able to solo every boss quickly, since that's what Treeguard Feller can do. If she can't, then (according to your logic) she's not balanced, she is severely underpowered.

You don't get to say that "Abigail should be balanced around Treeguard Feller" and then say "Abigail shouldn't be balanced around Treeguard Feller". You don't get to cite balance when it's convenient to what you want and then ignore it when it's inconvenient.

The reality is that you just want Abigail to be balanced around what you "feel" like she should be. You don't actually think she should be balanced with Treeguard Feller.

 

[Grove]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

When tanking bosses, Abigail always have to be Spectral cure-all filled, so there is no room for other elixirs. In that case, each insight will be for only "Blessed Sisturn III+Spectral cure-all spam combo". Further skill tree points are required to create other uses.

Am I insane or something? Didn't ya'll (I remember you specifically doing that) say that even with player tag Abby isn't a tank and that spamming cure-als isn't viable? Now it is, and you're picking skills that will specifically help you create cure-alls to help Abby tank bosses?