Notes on Wendy's changes for patch 645651 (2024-12-06)

[Jason]

Full patch Notes

Hope everyone is having a good Friday (or Saturday depending on where you're at). On to the notes:

It was likely that Gestalt Abigail was very strong as she was checking a lot of boxes, high damage, low cost, great survivability, etc, but it was how she was drafted originally and had not yet been experience that way as some of her brain behaviors were crossed, so she was not changed for the last patch. 

Indeed, she was too strong. For the changes, We wanted to define the choice of Abigails more, so Gestalt Abigail's choice is about being more aloof and personally survivable, lower maintenance, at the cost of damage speed (DPS). She's been made targetable again when attacking, so bosses will go after her and kill her if she doesn't have someone or something pulling some agro for her. Her damage has come down to be more in line with our desire to separate the two paths. If her health goes below 25% she will go into a hiding mode or pouting state and stop attacking until her health goes back above 25%. But If her health drops from above 25% to 0 in one hit, she will instead live at 1 health.

For extra uses of Mourning Glory, there was a common suggestion of having players be able to use elixirs. Some of the uses of Mourning Glory we planned did map to some of the elixirs, so we ran with that and found uses for the rest. Wendy can craft a hat of Mourning Glory that while worn lets someone drink elixirs (use them on the hat). Some have similar though lesser effects to those that Abigail gets, others follow the theme of the elixir if not the direct effect on the ghost. Some are more useful than others, but it's a lot of utility value for one skill.

Earlier on in the design phase of Wendy's skill tree, we had thought over various revival mechanics, but we'd turned them down since the Meat Effigy existed, but there were enough requests for Wendy to help revive her friends with a grave that we revived the idea.

Last, we added a way for Wendy to revive Butterflies using Mourning Glory. It has some general uses and pairs well with Shadow Abigail's path. It also shows her staring to learn how Mourning Glory can be used in Revival, leading to her new grave reviver skill.

These things have become their own Mourning Glory skill path to replace the missing Dark Petals path.

[Mike23Ua]

Oh these are nice, I wasn’t ever expecting to be able to drink Abigail’s Elixers, AND also get the gravestone revives, that’s awesome! (I love how Wendy always gets her own separate patch notes though .)

[aidankocherhans]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I love how Wendy always gets her own separate patch notes though 

I'd like if we could get one for Walter, to have a clearer understanding of what we can expect to change later on

[HowlVoid]

Very nice changes.

I wasn't expecting a damage nerf to Abigail but maybe it's warranted so we'll see.

I'm glad that the abi maintenance returns to G. Abi as i think that is a key component that makes the duo feel unique and balanced. 

If any of the potions give Wendy some edge in battle then the damage nerf is a lot more understandable. 

I think the team did a great job overall!

[Ridepod]

Seems like gestalt's damage was halved. Its for the best but can't say I didn't enjoy Abby killing almost everything in one hit while it lasted

Also I love the butterfly revival -- wouldn't mind if it got expanded more so perhaps morsels could be resurrected into rabbits or monster meat into spiders to allow for using shadow Abby in the caves or during winter without manually catching things to murder

Drinking potions seems pretty weak though especially behind a skill point AND having to make the not-permanent hat and elixir

[HowlVoid]

3 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

I'd like if we could get one for Walter, to have a clearer understanding of what we can expect to change later on

I wish these existed for Wormwood's skill tree, we never got an answer as to why Wormwood got the butterfly skill.

There were other awful skills, looking back. Why was spawning the fly boss important to him? Why are berries and juicy berries two different skills? 

I guess we'll never know.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Very nice changes.

I wasn't expecting a damage nerf to Abigail but maybe it's warranted so we'll see.

I'm glad that the abi maintenance returns to G. Abi as i think that is a key component that makes the duo feel unique and balanced. 

If any of the potions give Wendy some edge in battle then the damage nerf is a lot more understandable. 

I think the team did a great job overall!

Dude, between gravestone revives, the different player buffs from Elixers drinking and the haunt Mechanic- Wendy’s overall damage probably should be Nerfed to compensate?

I know I’m in the minority here.. but we have night vision, shields, Elixers healing, Speed Boost, Plus whatever shenanigans I’ll be able to perform with “haunt”

Wendys skill tree went from disappointing and very broken, to sounding very exciting. I can’t wait to play around with these new toys.

[HowlVoid]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

Dude, between gravestone revives, the different player buffs from Elixers drinking and the haunt Mechanic- Wendy’s overall damage probably should be Nerfed to compensate?

I know I’m in the minority here.. but we have night vision, shields, Elixers healing, Speed Boost, Plus whatever shenanigans I’ll be able to perform with “haunt”

Wendys skill tree went from disappointing and very broken, to sounding very exciting. I can’t wait to play around with these new toys.

Nerfing based on assumptions you haven't even tested yet? No.

[Nikki Darks]

Klei, we know you like being vague, but for the sake of being able to test the elixirs... Can you tell us what they actually do? Not numbers, just what the effects are....

 

[aidankocherhans]

6 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Klei, we know you like being vague, but for the sake of being able to test the elixirs... Can you tell us what they actually do? Not numbers, just what the effects are....

 

 

28 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

from some quick testing:

you cannot drink lunar/shadow elixors.

rev restorative/spectral cure-all: regens your hp/regens your hp alot.

Unyielding Draught: shields you from an attack.

Distilled Vengeance: i think it shoulds you then does aoe damage in a decent area.

Nightshade Nostrum: gray scaled night vision.

Vigor Mortis: i have no clue

the new one: gives you 5 sanity and 25, basically you physically drink it and not 'spiritually' drink it.

Here's what someone said about it

22 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

It gives you a flat +25% speed increase but only if you speed is below 1 and only enough to set your speed back to 1. In particular, the piggyback, marble suits, and heavy objects are impacted by this.

 

[erick was right]

hate wendy tree

hate warly tree

good wortox tree (except knabsack, big hate to knabsack)

 

 

[Nikki Darks]

19 minutes ago, aidankocherhans said:

 

Here's what someone said about it

 

Omg ty, I kinda skip through the text because of there being no dark mode and it hurts to look at. :')

 

[HeatAndRun]

Wendy became more complex and fun character to use, I'm very looking forward to test her out!

[Nikki Darks]

6 minutes ago, HeatAndRun said:

Wendy became more complex and fun character to use, I'm very looking forward to test her out!

Very much this. They heavily nerfed Lunar Abigail's damage because of how much it dumbed the game down.

But on the other hand, if you actually use the commands and elixirs on her, she is never going to die.

Scenario (tested):

Abigail goes from 25% to 0 and lives with 1 hp.

She kites back, you use the stronger healing potion on her that brings her above 25% before the boss gets to hit again...

SHe is back down to 25%.

She lost her insane damage, but she essentially became unkillable if you USE the abilities given to you.

Klei really knocked this entire update ouf of the park, nothing but bangers!

[RussoDaFederal]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

For extra uses of Mourning Glory, there was a common suggestion of having players be able to use elixirs. Some of the uses of Mourning Glory we planned did map to some of the elixirs, so we ran with that and found uses for the rest

Might I suggest you replace this branch lv2 and lv3 skills? Currently lv2 is the elixir one and lv3 is the grave revive one. I can't help but feel like lv2 is way more powerful than lv3.

[Koomin]

The Abigail fixes for Gestalt are great - is there any plan to similarly tune Shadow Abigail so Wendy isn't doing Wolfgang level damage pre-rifts and then having the form fall off post-rift?  Maybe reducing overall Abigail damage but also changing some of the normal damage to planar damage?  And doing the same for the vex buff (reducing overall buff, but change some of vex normal damage to planar)?

[Nikki Darks]

8 minutes ago, Koomin said:

The Abigail fixes for Gestalt are great - is there any plan to similarly tune Shadow Abigail so Wendy isn't doing Wolfgang level damage pre-rifts and then having the form fall off post-rift?  Maybe reducing overall Abigail damage but also changing some of the normal damage to planar damage?  And doing the same for the vex buff (reducing overall buff, but change some of vex normal damage to planar)?

Pretty sure that Wendy with shadow elixir gets a 2.1 damage modifier from the vex, most likely needs to get some tunning

[Koomin]

20 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

 

I would be content with damage tuning if non-damage buffs are introduced for compensation; I would suggest faster attack speed for example, but I guess that would technically count as damage-related?

Yea I suggested converting some of the damage to planar as compensation. Supposed to be a nerf for early where it feels overtined and a buff for late where it feels a bit sad. Smooths out the curve from being ridiculously high for old bosses and then immediately outclassed for new bosses, becoming something nicely useful throughout the game.

[WenericMember]

New uses for MG really round out the tree, (but could someone tell me what the potion effects do?), but dissappointed to see no improvements to the last tier of the graves line, and no changes to team spirit lines. They're some of the last things holding the tree back from its potential.

Are those changes in progress or were they scrapped?

[Arthurian Titan]

My thoughts on the Wendy updates:

The Sisturn HP increase is nice, but it's still very situational and still takes too long for a temporary buff. It would be better if the skill increased Abby's Max HP instead of the temporary HP, or made it so she could survive more hits from Bosses. Make the Sisturn III give Abigail the player tag so that she doesn't die so easily to Bosses, and make Sisturn IV give Abigail 300 or 200 more HP instantly instead of the tedious task of having her stay there for a long time for a buff that will dispel quickly. Because at this time, Sisturn III and IV are too niche of skills to actually make it useful, principally because its tedious to let Abigail be frozen in place for a buff that will be lost in the first 3 hits of the boss. Making Abigail receive the same damage as Wendy while the Sisturn is active would be much better for her survivability than the current skills.
While Gestalt Abigail was too OP, I think she is now objectively worse than Shadow Abigail. If you want to focus more on survivable, than an HP increase would benefit her, or the previously mentioned player tag on Abby would help it a lot. Also, the Haunt command should have a buffed chance of triggering the effects.
I like the butterfly craft, but this does make for the opportunity to have Wendy craft other small mobs, like being able to craft bees via their stingers, but it is a little expensive on the Mourning Glory side. 2 it's a better compromise, I think. I also like the hat to drink the potions, but it's a little awkward to drink them atm, maybe making the shift + right click would be better. My problem is with some effects. The HP recovery is great, and the nightshade night vision is awesome as well, but the rest could use some work.
The shield ones are useless, as you only have a single instance of damage negated so it's kinda wasted, and it doesn't make the potion feel satisfying or useful at all, I recommend making Wendy gain some damage reduction while the potion is active and making so the shield enters a cooldown after the first time, so it's actually beneficial to have it on, because atm it's pointless.
Vigor Mortis should be a normal speed boost instead of only working when you have reduced speed because Beefalo is a popular strategy when using Wendy and Beefalos are better to transport heavy objects than the Vigor is. Make it give Wendy a 15% speed boost in its duration and it would be useful, instead of being situational.
Gastly experience is underwhelming, and it should have a better effect than a simple hunger and sanity increase. And the affinity potions could give interesting boosts to Wendy instead of being Abigail only. Gastly could be buffed as it is part of the skill tree, so at least buffing up the numbers on the hunger and sanity gained, or making it so Wendy can chop trees and mine rocks faster for a limited time instead. The Affinities could be more combat-oriented, like the Shadow Potion removing Wendy's damage reduction, while the Lunar gives Wendy some planar defense.
The new revive is great, though, I love it, and I would love to see more multiplayer-focused skills for Wendy herself, as this one and the Ghost damage seem to be the most flavourful for the multiplayer aspect, though being able to give the elixir hat to other players is also nice. 

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Arthurian Titan said:

My thoughts on the Wendy updates:

The Sisturn HP increase is nice, but it's still very situational and still takes too long for a temporary buff. It would be better if the skill increased Abby's Max HP instead of the temporary HP, or made it so she could survive more hits from Bosses. Make the Sisturn III give Abigail the player tag so that she doesn't die so easily to Bosses, and make Sisturn IV give Abigail 300 or 200 more HP instantly instead of the tedious task of having her stay there for a long time for a buff that will dispel quickly. Because at this time, Sisturn III and IV are too niche of skills to actually make it useful, principally because its tedious to let Abigail be frozen in place for a buff that will be lost in the first 3 hits of the boss. Making Abigail receive the same damage as Wendy while the Sisturn is active would be much better for her survivability than the current skills.
While Gestalt Abigail was too OP, I think she is now objectively worse than Shadow Abigail. If you want to focus more on survivable, than an HP increase would benefit her, or the previously mentioned player tag on Abby would help it a lot.
I like the butterfly craft, but this does make for the opportunity to have Wendy craft other small mobs, like being able to craft bees via their stingers, but it is a little expensive on the Mourning Glory side. 2 it's a better compromise, I think. I also like the hat to drink the potions, but it's a little awkward to drink them atm, maybe making the shift + right click would be better. My problem is with some effects. The HP recovery is great, and the nightshade night vision is awesome as well, but the rest could use some work.
The shield ones are useless, as you only have a single instance of damage negated so it's kinda wasted, and it doesn't make the potion feel satisfying or useful at all, I recommend making Wendy gain some damage reduction while the potion is active and making so the shield enters a cooldown after the first time, so it's actually beneficial to have it on, because atm it's pointless.
Vigor Mortis should be a normal speed boost instead of only working when you have reduced speed because Beefalo is a popular strategy when using Wendy and Beefalos are better to transport heavy objects than the Vigor is. Make it give Wendy a 15% speed boost in its duration and it would be useful, instead of being situational.
Gastly experience is underwhelming, and it should have a better effect than a simple hunger and sanity increase. And the affinity potions could give interesting boosts to Wendy instead of being Abigail only. Gastly could be buffed as it is part of the skill tree, so at least buffing up the numbers on the hunger and sanity gained, or making it so Wendy can chop trees and mine rocks faster for a limited time instead. The Affinities could be more combat-oriented, like the Shadow Potion removing Wendy's damage reduction, while the Lunar gives Wendy some planar defense.
The new revive is great, though, I love it, and I would love to see more multiplayer-focused skills for Wendy herself, as this one and the Ghost damage seem to be the most flavourful for the multiplayer aspect, though being able to give the elixir hat to other players is also nice. 

If you wouldnt mind, could you post a full list of potion effects & item inspect quotes? I cant play rn and really curious about them.

[Nikki Darks]

One suggestion.

Could you guys make alignment elixirs drinkable, with the effect of doing 10% bonus damage to the opposite alignment

?

[-Variant]

I said it like 8 times again, I'll keep saying it. I LOVE these new 'Note' posts going into the team's perspective on everything. I hope this becomes a new permanent staple! 

Also, super stoked to try out the new potion skills. All seem very fun!

[Nikki Darks]

Honestly any effect would be cool, I just love the idea of players drinking elixirs so much, and the 2 coolest ones doing nothing is kinda sad

[Arthurian Titan]

17 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

If you wouldnt mind, could you post a full list of potion effects & item inspect quotes? I cant play rn and really curious about them.

Sure! It would also be good to have it here where we all discussing it.
Revenant Restorative: Restores 1 HP per second for 30 seconds, for a total of 30 HP, 60HP with the skill that doubles duration.
Spectral Cure-All: Restores 5 HP per second for 16 seconds, for a total of 80 HP.
(Those Two are excellent)
Unyielding Draught: Gives a one-use shield that negates 1 instance of damage plus a 50% damage reduction while the shield is active (for 1 second), then the shield is disabled.
Distilled Vengeance: The same as above but when the shield is triggered, it also deals 20 damage in an area.
(Those two need work as they are kinda useless as a one-time thing, and it makes you unable to use real helmets for a subpar defense, my suggestion is making the shield receive a cooldown when triggered, that is recharged after some seconds to be triggered again, so it is more useful as a pseudo-bone helm)
Nightshade Nostrum: Gives you 8 minutes of Night Vision, essentially a Moggles. (This one is incredible)
Vigor Mortis: Gives you a speed bonus, but only when carrying heavy objects, essentially making you move normally with them. (Useless because Beefalo exists and is a popular strategy for Wendy's players, so it's especially meaningless for her. Make it give a 15% movement boost instead of that it would be better. The only use atm is for Marble suits.)
Gastly Experience: Gives you a small hunger and sanity buff. (Useless as well, the buff should be bigger or have a different effect)
Lunar and Shadow Elixirs are too strong for Wendy, so she can't use them. (For late-game items they kinda deserve better effects)