Notes on Wendy's changes for patch 645651 (2024-12-06)

[lan JPG]

11 hours ago, Jason said:

完整补丁说明

希望大家度过一个愉快的星期五（或星期六，取决于您所在的位置）。 关于说明：

格式塔阿比盖尔可能非常强大，因为她符合很多条件，高伤害、低成本、出色的生存能力等，但这是她最初被选中的方式，而且由于她的一些大脑行为交叉，因此尚未以这种方式体验，所以她没有在上一个补丁中进行更改。 

事实上，她太强大了。 对于这些变化，我们希望更多地定义阿比盖尔的选择，因此格式塔阿比盖尔的选择是更加冷漠和个人生存能力强、维护成本更低，但代价是伤害速度（DPS）。 她在攻击时再次成为可瞄准的对象，因此如果没有人或某物为她拉一些仇恨，boss 会追赶她并杀死她。 她的伤害已经降低，以更符合我们分离两条路径的愿望。如果她的生命值低于 25%，她将进入隐藏模式或撅嘴状态，并停止攻击，直到她的生命值恢复到 25% 以上。但如果她的生命值在一次攻击中从 25% 以上降至 0，她将以 1 点生命值存活。

对于哀悼荣耀的额外用途，人们普遍建议让玩家能够使用灵药。我们计划的哀悼荣耀的某些用途确实与某些灵药相对应，因此我们采用这种做法并找到了其余用途。温迪可以制作一顶哀悼荣耀的帽子，戴上后可以喝灵药（在帽子上使用）。有些灵药的效果与阿比盖尔获得的灵药相似但效果较弱，其他灵药则遵循灵药的主题，即使不直接作用于鬼魂。有些灵药比其他灵药更有用，但对于一项技能来说，它的实用价值很高。

在温迪技能树的设计阶段早期，我们考虑过各种复活机制，但由于肉体雕像的存在，我们拒绝了这些机制，但由于有足够多的请求让温迪帮助用坟墓复活她的朋友，我们重新提出了这个想法。

最后，我们为温蒂添加了使用哀悼荣耀复活蝴蝶的方法。它有一些通用用途，与暗影阿比盖尔的路径搭配得很好。它还展示了她盯着学习如何在复活中使用哀悼荣耀，从而获得了她的新坟墓复活技能。

这些东西已经成为了自己的哀悼荣耀技能路径，以替代缺失的黑暗花瓣路径。

I was wondering if you'd played before the design?

[Soul7k]

3 hours ago, Maybe Just said:

 3. The Sisturn and health increase. The 600 health increase should be changed to a permanent boost or one that slowly regenerates, such as allowing Abigail to use the picnic basket to restore health, albeit at a slower rate than the Sisturn.

I agree with this. The health stages should be permanent after charging and you should have to go back to the sisturn if she dies to recharge them. making the temporary  health charge twice as fast at 5 minutes from the 10 minutes it used to take was definitely a good change

[Sacco]

8 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I don't understand. I really don't understand.

Why is Wendy so much worse than the other two as a skill tree in the same update? The whole skill tree is filled with filler skills and unbearably huge redundancy, can't you just give her something that really suits her?

ok, but don't cry and please make suggestions. It's so uncostructive your comment and useless too.

5 hours ago, YXukun said:

Emm, can't say that I'm in favour of these changes…I mean, the elixir skills are good, butterfly skill is filler that should be expected, but it feels still lacks something. Both Abigail lacks planar damage, while the only resource of planar damage is the lunar elixir, should replace some of both Abigail's damage with planar.

Planar damage is meant to reduce your overall damage output.

Don't forget that against planar enemies wendy doesn't deal 25% less damage, because first of all, having less damage means it gets less reduced, and due to how math work, her dps compared to the others is less than 25% less damage, and there is also the fact that planar damage does not get reduced by her downside...

[Peasant]

8 minutes ago, Sacco said:

Planar damage is meant to reduce your overall damage output.

Don't forget that against planar enemies wendy doesn't deal 25% less damage, because first of all, having less damage means it gets less reduced, and due to how math work, her dps compared to the others is less than 25% less damage, and there is also the fact that planar damage does not get reduced by her downside...

That I know, I don't quite get your point, your mean Abigail should decrease her damage in exchang for planar damage?

[Bing-Kong]

I hope the developers can take Wendy seriously. Wendy’s strength is not high and is even quite weak. Skill books like those for Demon and Walter are very good, so Wendy should also have some highly practical skills instead of the flashy ones she currently has. Wendy needs her sister to maintain her survival capabilities, especially during the fissure stages on the surface and in the caves. Abigail cannot maintain her own health at all

[Sacco]

31 minutes ago, YXukun said:

That I know, I don't quite get your point, your mean Abigail should decrease her damage in exchang for planar damage?

no.

I mean that due to how planar damage works wendy's damage output is higher than normal.

Ans most importantly, planar damage is meant to reduce your total output, so i think it's fair abi doesn't get more damage.

[Peasant]

33 minutes ago, Sacco said:

no.

I mean that due to how planar damage works wendy's damage output is higher than normal.

Ans most importantly, planar damage is meant to reduce your total output, so i think it's fair abi doesn't get more damage.

Woodie got 80 plus planar damage when striking planar entity enemies with the third blow in his moose form, Willow's both alignment skills provide a fair planar damage, Wigfrid got a weapon that deals 20 planar damage, and Winona, well, we all know what her remote does.

[Sacco]

23 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Woodie got 80 plus planar damage when striking planar entity enemies with the third blow in his moose form, Willow's both alignment skills provide a fair planar damage, Wigfrid got a weapon that deals 20 planar damage, and Winona, well, we all know what her remote does.

i know, but i think klei took the wrong way.

I think all characters shuold be like wendy, no crazy planar damage buffs...

Wendy is cool because her skill tree didn't make end game content a breeze like it did with other characters.

[1007954611]

It is recommended to roll back the "untargetable" feature for Gestalt Abi. Buff Abi surviving ability please

[Swiyss]

bro those elixir changes are definitely interesting, and that morning glory crown looks sick.

[Grove]

16 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Vigor Mortis isn't an ordinary speed boost since speed in this game is very strong and can trivialize fights, and Wendy is already quite strong. Getting the ability to carry stuff better is nice for Wendy players who don't use beefalo, I guess?

Perhaps make it a weaker version of Warly's honey spice?

[Kondr_]

usable elixirs are great! I like it. I think her tree in a good spot content wise.

[Leonmiao]

The new hat is a good idea. However, instead of sharing elixirs, I really hope the new hat can possess on other helmet thus sharing the armor effect with Abi. After all, the survival of Abi (especially the armor of Abi) is what matters most according to Wendy.  By the way, the switch of Lunar Abi and shadow Abi should be more flexible on date but can be a little difficult on , how about using crevice not the phase of moon. 

[DVGMedia]

11 hours ago, Maybe Just said:

1. The urn can hold more items. For example, dark petals, forget-me-lots, fire nettles, foliage... to give Abigail different effects.

I think it should be what happens. Based on the urns instead of moondials and all that stuff.
Moreso though the lunar form being tied to getting the lunar blossoms from the trees.
They are flowers and should be usable in the urns.
Normally i think the urn is kind of a pointless structure.
often times abby wont die untill later into the game.  And its wendies unique station already so  why not just have everything tied to it?

[Lee Sy]

Dear Jason:

[pitovsky]

suggestion:

I don't think anyone wants an Abigail OP. the problem with abigail is that she dies very quickly in boss fights and we wish she didn't die so quickly. The first beta allowed you to make an item (body - I don't remember the name) that sent all damage received by Wendy to Abigail. it was not a good solution.

They informed that they would replace this item or effect with a type of armor. however, not only did this armor not appear for Abigail, but we also found that the Gestalt Abigail was able to kill all (or most) the bosses alone. currently they nerfed the Gestalt Abigail (as it should be) but even more problems arose to the existing ones.

with bosses that have a larger attack radius (almost all of them), Gestalt Abigail suffers damage whenever or almost whenever she attacks, leaving her out of combat relatively early.

Why don't we take the initial idea with modifications?

With the new hat equipped, Wendy shares life with Abigail and Abigail either gains a 50% damage reduction or takes damage as a character. Because they share life, damage taken by Wendy is also taken by Abigail and damage taken by Abigail is also taken by Wendy. the damage distribution could be, for example, 50%. in an attack of 100 damage if it was received by Abigail or Wendy or both at the same time, each one would lose 50 life (in Wendy's case, not counting armor).

This would only occur while Wendy had the hat equipped. If Wendy has armor on her body this could be more complicated to calculate. apply the armor percentage to the damage taken (50) or to the initial damage (100)?

It would certainly change the way you play, but let's not forget that Wendy can drink potions (in fact, as long as she had the hat equipped, the same single potion could apply to both).

I don't know if it would be kind of OP, but the new hat could give Wendy a damage reduction (like 50%, 60%) to compensate for the loss of the head slot, if it didn't have a better protection on the body.

[Mike23Ua]

10 hours ago, YXukun said:

Woodie got 80 plus planar damage when striking planar entity enemies with the third blow in his moose form, Willow's both alignment skills provide a fair planar damage, Wigfrid got a weapon that deals 20 planar damage, and Winona, well, we all know what her remote does.

All this post makes me wonder is what was even the purpose or point of adding planar into the game anyway when some characters can spawn into the world with a skill point investment to “deal with” or “ignore” it.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

All this post makes me wonder is what was even the purpose or point of adding planar into the game anyway when some characters can spawn into the world with a skill point investment to “deal with” or “ignore” it.

I think the general point was to try to reduce effectiveness of "cheese" strats, like treeguards, gunpowder, etc. Surivors unique mechanics getting planar damage makes sense, as they kinda need to stay competitive with rift options to promote characyer diversity.

[Mike23Ua]

20 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I think the general point was to try to reduce effectiveness of "cheese" strats, like treeguards, gunpowder, etc. Surivors unique mechanics getting planar damage makes sense, as they kinda need to stay competitive with rift options to promote characyer diversity.

Going by this logic though Woodie (who has a skill tree item to summon Tree-guards) should have somewhere in his skill tree the ability to buff treeguard effectiveness (maybe with claws like armored beargers?) for Planar damage, yes he has moose form for that, but he’s also the only character in the entire game who’s skills involve intentionally summoning Treeguards.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Going by this logic though Woodie (who has a skill tree item to summon Tree-guards) should have somewhere in his skill tree the ability to buff treeguard effectiveness (maybe with claws like armored beargers?) for Planar damage, yes he has moose form for that, but he’s also the only character in the entire game who’s skills involve intentionally summoning Treeguards.

Except Im 99% sure the treeguards insta aggro on you. Im pretty sure the intention is to farm living logs, not to use them as minions (its at the end of the kill treeguards path)

[Eieni]

I understand that gestalt Abby needs a nerf but at the very least please remove that dumb 1s pause she does after attacking. She draws aggro as you kite an oncoming attack, but the pause causes her to stay inside the boss' range as they're about to attack so she just takes it. I tried to fight Bearger and most of her damage taken was caused by that, it mostly renders her kiting AI useless.

It's silly that the only thing that makes her "more survivable" is the fact she attacks slower so she isn't constantly taking aggro, and the lack of AOE so she isn't unnecessarily aggro-ing a random mob.

[1007954611]

call back Gestalt's invincibility frames, and remove her "daze for a second" setting in the code. Or, give her more flat defense and a player tag.

[Pure Brilliance]

Can you make Wendy able to dig up graves without gravestones?

Graves have always been an obstacle when placing structures, so I really liked the grave-digging skill this time. However, graves that don't have tombstones cannot be dug up even with the skill. I’m not sure if this is a bug or intentional, but it would be great if those graves could also be dug up and relocated.

[Kondr_]

3 hours ago, Dreadstone said:

Can you make Wendy able to dig up graves without gravestones?

You do not mean she loses  ability to dig for trinkets. You do mean she cannot move elsewhere buried-without-stone ones.

suppose we should be able to add gravestone to them (and then move)

[QuitePositiveGC]

On 12/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, Jason said:

It was likely that Gestalt Abigail was very strong as she was checking a lot of boxes, high damage, low cost, great survivability, etc, but it was how she was drafted originally and had not yet been experience that way as some of her brain behaviors were crossed, so she was not changed for the last patch. 

Indeed, she was too strong. For the changes, We wanted to define the choice of Abigails more, so Gestalt Abigail's choice is about being more aloof and personally survivable, lower maintenance, at the cost of damage speed (DPS). She's been made targetable again when attacking, so bosses will go after her and kill her if she doesn't have someone or something pulling some agro for her. Her damage has come down to be more in line with our desire to separate the two paths. If her health goes below 25% she will go into a hiding mode or pouting state and stop attacking until her health goes back above 25%. But If her health drops from above 25% to 0 in one hit, she will instead live at 1 health.

I actually didn't think her survivability was too overpowered, her being able to solo bosses was more funny than actually useful, Imo at least. Overall I won't comment on most of these changes since I won't be using Gestalt Abigail. That said, I will comment on the one shot protection you gave her, that's awesome; love it!

On 12/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, Jason said:

For extra uses of Mourning Glory, there was a common suggestion of having players be able to use elixirs. Some of the uses of Mourning Glory we planned did map to some of the elixirs, so we ran with that and found uses for the rest. Wendy can craft a hat of Mourning Glory that while worn lets someone drink elixirs (use them on the hat). Some have similar though lesser effects to those that Abigail gets, others follow the theme of the elixir if not the direct effect on the ghost. Some are more useful than others, but it's a lot of utility value for one skill.

While I absolutely love this and how it helps to deal with piles of Mourning Glory, especially since these and Elixirs can be given to allies.

That said though, I can't help but feel like the Elixir skills are still very disappointing. Specifically 3&4, the two that should be interesting! Doubling duration of Elixirs and a chance at double yield from crafting Elixirs is, Imo at the very least, not very interesting and pretty niche. I'd love for these two to be something else. As for Elixir 4 I'll give an idea in the next section. But as for Elixir 3 I don't really have any ideas, and if it had to stay, I guess I'd be fine if it meant Elixir 4 was something more interesting!

I commented about this previously, but I do feel like allowing Abigail to use two Elixirs at the same time would be really fun and interesting, especially considering you could then mix and match them for specific situations! So I must ask, has this been considered already? And if so, what was the reason for not going with it?

On 12/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, Jason said:

Earlier on in the design phase of Wendy's skill tree, we had thought over various revival mechanics, but we'd turned them down since the Meat Effigy existed, but there were enough requests for Wendy to help revive her friends with a grave that we revived the idea.

This is pretty neat, I love it!

On 12/6/2024 at 8:12 PM, Jason said:

Last, we added a way for Wendy to revive Butterflies using Mourning Glory. It has some general uses and pairs well with Shadow Abigail's path. It also shows her staring to learn how Mourning Glory can be used in Revival, leading to her new grave reviver skill.

This might be pretty useful considering I'll be going with Shadow Abigail, that said, four Mourning Glory to revive a single Butterfly is a bit expensive.

To end this off I'd like to thank you, Jason, for posting these in-depth reasonings behind all the additions and changes! I wish all the characters got these types of posts to give further insight into the Klei-team's thought process!