[Poll] On Cheese Strategies and Exploits

[Evelo]

I don't like exploits and think they need to be fixed. But simultaneously if people use them, that's on them. I don't. What I want may not be popular and that is fine, the popular opinions held by the most people should lead to the conclusion that satisfies the most users. As such exploits should remain (much to my dismay).

I personally think the game would be healthier if they are removed but that is just an opinion. But I also think the Celestial Portal is a very cheat like feature and it is in the game and clearly intentional. So yknow, it's all subjective. You cheese, you exploit, glad you're having fun. You don't? Well hope you have fun too. I certainly try.

In general on this thread PLEASE avoid the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument. It is frivolous as aspects of the game affect everyone because of Klei's expectations of player behavior along with various other reasons. If you find yourself typing that out I suggest looking up reasons as to why that argument is or is not valid for numerous situations.

Have fun and please be civil.

[Maxil20]

This is why I don’t like threads like these when it comes to discussing cheese/exploits. Instead of people going “I like using exploits for X reason!” Or “I personally don’t like using exploits for X reason” and just going on with your day, it quickly devolves into borderline insults towards others and just an excuse to toy with the other side because the way they play the game is different from how they play the game.

Like, apart from the fact it just makes you look like a Terrible person I would never want to interact with outside of the forums, it just leaves a sour taste in my mouth and makes me feel like no meaningful discussion to get from this. Of course, not everyone here is like this, but it only takes a few bad apples to sour the experience for everyone.

I guess to throw in my 2 oincs, I have certainly been one to utilize exploits that I personally think are fun. I have used minor ones to major ones, with my most noteworthy example (which was patched years ago) that I was able to push crab king (and it’s spawner) all the way directly next to land, and thanks to docks have been able to have a fully landlocked crab king. Pulling off the exploit was unique experience, since while performing it was easy (you simply placed a boat where CK was after you “killed” him), moving crab king to where you wanted wasn’t (as the boat rapidly shook from how large CK’s hitbox was, and trying to land on that boat would cause you to drown from the rapid elevation change. Back when boats didn’t move to a stop and boats were much slower, I ended up having to make a second boat and anchor the CK one and very slowly push CK torwards land. I ended up going Wurt to prevent the drowning downsides, which was a good precaution because I ended up messing up a good few times.

I can understand why a lot of people don’t like using exploits, and I think that is perfectly understandable. I personally think they are okay as long as it is moreso out of the way and doesn’t largely disrupt game balance. Klei seems to take this stance given how they usually patch out the more problematic ones (Especially dupe item exploits) and keep ones that don’t impact this as much or are very out of the way. Heck, ones that are usually done for particular reasons (Ex: a bug to dupe goat herds) are usually brought back as an intentional feature/mechanic, something I personally do get behind.

[goblinball]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Clearly it isn't just that, the whole point of this thread is to complain about klei fixing exploits

It’s a poll.

The original post is nothing but a jpeg of cheese.

How does that equal “complaining about patching exploits”?

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

In general on this threat PLEASE avoid the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument. It is frivolous as aspects of the game affect everyone because of Klei's expectations of player behavior along with various other reasons. If you find yourself typing that out I suggest looking up reasons as to why that argument is or is not valid for numerous situations.

As the person who said that, why do you personally think we have to avoid the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument?

I Googled and looked up reasons as you said, if the reason you're referring to is "It make bypassing various other fun things besides to use cheese," then just call on other players to "Please not use cheese this time." We cheese lovers sometimes enjoy not using cheese. We enjoy preparing necessary items and fighting fair and square with dragonflies, Shadow Pieces, and Ancient Fuelweaver at least a few times on any server. However, certain players are getting increasingly tired it after 10 or 20 times in a short term. If there is cheese at such times, you can secure more time to enjoy other fun things in the game. This is why I'm a cheese lover.

At that time, if someone suggests "I want to fight without cheese," at least I will accept it, and if there is a player who refuses it, I think that it is more of a problem with the player than a problem with the cheese.
 

[Maxposting]

21 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

As the person who said that, why do you personally think we have to avoid the "If you don't like it, don't use it" argument?

Because it ultimately goes nowhere. It literally just dismisses any sort of valid critique or point a person could make for why exploits are bad because "why use them", it is self-referential and stands on the regressive logic that there is nothing to improve or change.
That is not a productive discussion that is meant to go anywhere.

[grm9]

17 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

Because it ultimately goes nowhere. It literally just dismisses any sort of valid critique or point a person could make for why exploits are bad because "why use them", it is self-referential and stands on the regressive logic that there is nothing to improve or change.
That is not a productive discussion that is meant to go anywhere

nope, "don't use if don't like" argument only usually gets mentioned when the only solution that people that don't like it propose's just removing it or changing it so much that people that liked it previously won't, e.g. removing cheese that doesn't affect you if you aren't using it, it makes sense because there's hardly any other solution that'd keep both people that like the thing and people that don't fine with it's state

[Maxposting]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

nope, "don't use if don't like" argument only usually gets mentioned when the only solution that people that don't like it propose's just removing it or changing it so much that people that liked it previously won't, e.g. removing cheese that doesn't affect you if you aren't using it, it makes sense because there's no other solution that'd keep both people that don't like it and people that do happy

Right.

7 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

The golden rule as cheese supremacist: if you hate cheese or exploits, just don't use and only play multiplayer with people who don't use.

[Quadratordo]

I occasionally use cheese if I can't be bothered to do it ''the right way''. If it gets fixed then ah well, guess I'll do it another way; after all, fixing unintended interactions/behaviors is something that Klei does and should continue doing, and if they end up substituting unintended behavior with new features, then it's a net positive for everyone, really: it's better to have a game where exploits are unneeded by the larger playerbase (I say this because let's be real here, some form of cheese is bound to always be present), and that can only happen if they are fixed *and* the game is accordingly updated to address the *reason* for exploits to be popular/needed in the first place.

On the matter of the discussion on this thread, there's no such thing as ''if you don't like X, don't engage with it''; concerns about a ''troublesome element'' of the game (a definition that extends past just cheese and exploits) cannot be off-handedly dismissed like that. Of course, the nature of said concern might end up being frivolous, but it has to be proven to be so, instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by using such a dismissive statement.

 

[SilverSpoon]

49 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

Because it ultimately goes nowhere. It literally just dismisses any sort of valid critique or point a person could make for why exploits are bad because "why use them", it is self-referential and stands on the regressive logic that there is nothing to improve or change.
That is not a productive discussion that is meant to go anywhere.

I said "as cheese supremacist" because criticism about cheese tends to be directed not at Klei but at us cheese lovers. We're not give up cheese, no matter what the naysayers tell us. In that case, all we can say is "just don't use it."

However, I apologize for saying it when still no one has said that to us. That was an unnecessary and stupid.

If this was a constructive discussion on "What is a way to satisfy both cheese lovers and anti-cheese people?", I would say something better than "Just don't use" (your *clucks and cackles* are not the same, Sir.rooster. Because you're just venting your thought and have no intention listening to others' opinions).

 

On a different note, Maxposting, how do you quote text from another page?

[Maxposting]

3 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

On a different note, Maxposting, how do you quote text from another page?

 
This button allows you to quote multiple posts at once, you then use it while writing a post in the thread you want.

[Echsrick]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

 

Well you say this but if Klei agreed with this mindset of yours we would have never got the new ancient guardian fight which is a million times better than glitching him behind a pillar. And all the new bosses wouldn't have been this fun to fight.

well have you ever tried thinkin as to WHY someone would use cheese? and why it is a good thing that it sould stay? the new version alsol has its fair share of problems....that being ENEMY SPAMMING, thats right, those shadow tentacles that will fill up the area are in fact a bad game design

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Well you say this but if Klei agreed with this mindset of yours we would have never got the new ancient guardian fight which is a million times better than glitching him behind a pillar. And all the new bosses wouldn't have been this fun to fight.

That's OK case(but I think shadow tentacles need more fixing...), Ancient Fellweaver didn't fix his problem, just the cheese was fixed. That's not OK.

If you want people to seriously discuss your Moonlight Shackle, please learn some courtesy, follow the Community Guidelines, and be an adult, do it.

[Maxposting]

5 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I said "as cheese supremacist" because criticism about cheese tends to be directed not at Klei but at us cheese lovers. We're not give up cheese, no matter what the naysayers tell us. In that case, all we can say is "just don't use it."

However, I apologize for saying it when no one has said that to us. That was an unnecessary and stupid.

My point with the crossquote was largely debunking the whole "it's only usually when people want to remove cheese that they shouldn't use it" point, because I do not think that is the case. Even if it is used against "removing cheese/exploits", it is a fallacious argument, as it doesn't actually adress why would someone want them removed.

I myself am neutral about cheese (see Gashzer's distinction) because they aren't actually exploiting a boss or a feature of it. (Heck, some strategies I probably use would count as "cheese".)
I don't think Klei should change stuff to be "uncheesable" because making complex farms/overpreparing isn't an actual issue (at least for me) and is a part of long-term worlds.
Exploits like voidwalking and lureplant collision should be removed though, if not changed to become features (see: kiting AG into pillars becoming a feature).

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

That's OK case(but I think shadow tentacles need more fixing...), Ancient Fellweaver didn't fix his problem, just the cheese was fixed. That's not OK.

If you want people to seriously discuss your Moonlight Shackle, please learn some courtesy, follow the Community Guidelines, and be an adult, do it.

Stop invoking the Community guidelines then breaking them in the same breathe lol, if you actually followed them yourself i would take you more seriously 

I dont need people to discuss my moonlight shackle, it's a great idea that doesn't need further discussion only for Klei to implement it and that's not down to anyone but them.

Shadow tentacles are a great RNG threat during Ancient guardian, would be a lesser fight if they got nerfed. They arnt that difficult to deal with as long as you are aware that they can spawn, klei did a good job with the loud audio cues for them, that's warning enough for me to dodge them.

[SilverSpoon]

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Stop invoking the Community guidelines then breaking them in the same breathe lol, if you actually followed them yourself i would take you more seriously 

Blegh, I am only toxic to people who have been toxic to me first. And I only respond toxically to toxic comments made to me. Bullying back at a bully is my most favorite guilty pleasure, and no one can complaints about it, because they were the ones who hit me first.

Also, I made my most recent comment seriously, in accordance with the Community guidelines. If there is anything that bothers you, please let me know.

Finally, I don't care if your Moonlight Shackle doesn't get seriously hooked on your cockiness. All of that is the result of your actions.

[ShadowDuelist]

I think Klei has been patching the glitchiest ones only; those that break the balance of the game, or outright damage servers. EG: When you could place an infinite amount of evil flowers on top of each other, to the point where even if you were hosting in a NASA computer, the server would still lag. Or Getting Klaus stuck between his sack and a lureplant, basically turning his fight into a boring one, with really no preparation or effort.  Those patches are fine by me. Others, like voidwalking, are mostly "meh, fine, I'll find another way".

I love to use cheesy strategies. I don't mind that much when they patch the ugly ones. So far I haven't seen patches of cheesing methods that take some effort/grinding, and that require a decent amount of preparation and knowledge to be executed.
Others have been a part of the game for so long, that they are probably meant to stay (Like the bad lavae pathfinding).

I think their decision on what to patch and what not, has been pretty fair so far. 

[Gashzer]

Just now, SilverSpoon said:

Blegh, I am only toxic to people who have been toxic to me first. And I only respond toxically to toxic comments made to me. Bullying back at a bully is my most favorite guilty pleasure, and no one can complaints about it, because they were the ones who hit me first.

Also, I made my most recent comment seriously, in accordance with the Community guidelines. If there is anything that bothers you, please let me know.

Finally, I don't care if your Moonlight Shackle doesn't get seriously hooked on your cockiness. All of that is the result of your actions.

I shall refer to you as Mr. Blegh from now on.

I will depart now.

Good day Mr. Blegh, look forward to our next encounter in another saucy thread 

[Echsrick]

20 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

turning his fight into a boring one

thats what i dont like, using that as an argumend...its not....fun depends on person to person, there probably people out there that had fun and were not bored by makin klaus stuck

[GimplyGoose]

I haven't seen anybody else raise this point yet, but I may have missed something because I mostly skimmed through the responses, but what is and isn't a cheese strategy is mostly subjective. There will never be a consensus on what is and isn't cheese.

Is hiding some werepig bait behind some walls near pig houses cheese?

Is setting up a Varg farm cheese?

Is playing <insert character> cheese?

Is leading a hound attack into a beefalo herd cheese?

Is gunpowder cheese?

From my own experience, people are generally less likely to identify their own strategies as cheese strategies and are more likely to identify other people's strategies as cheese strategies.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that trying to decide the outlook on cheese in general is less useful than looking at each individual strategy people may consider cheese on a case by case basis.

Personally, I have used cheese and I will continue to use cheese as long as I am having fun. I sometimes play worlds with a specific theme or challenge and some cheese strategies can be integral or they may be impossible to pull off.

[DegenerateFurry]

Good to see that most people are either neutral or positive about the existence and use of cheese/exploits. Hopefully Klei will see the feelings of their playerbase and act accordingly.

14 minutes ago, GimplyGoose said:

I haven't seen anybody else raise this point yet, but I may have missed something because I mostly skimmed through the responses, but what is and isn't a cheese strategy is mostly subjective. There will never be a consensus on what is and isn't cheese.

I tend to bring this up in threads about cheese and/or exploits because it's true: what counts as "cheese" is definitely a subjective thing, and what level of cheese is unacceptable is also subjective. 

6 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Well you say this but if Klei agreed with this mindset of yours we would have never got the new ancient guardian fight which is a million times better than glitching him behind a pillar. And all the new bosses wouldn't have been this fun to fight.

Yeah, the only time it's acceptable to me for a dev to patch cheese methods for bosses is if they rework the boss in such a way that addresses the original reason people cheesed it. That should be done simultaneously, though - they should not remove cheese before reworking a boss. 

Crab King's overhaul definitely made the fight more fun and less obnoxious, but they still left in the bee cheese because at the end of the day, some people just like fighting it that way. 

Klei either needs to bring back cave voidwalking and the lure plant cheese or rework Fuelweaver in such a way that people don't feel the need to cheese him. The latter would be the better move.

[Dr. Safety]

The only cheese/exploit that I used frequently was patched out and I still want it back

Gimme back the ability to wear Wes head skins on Wickerbottom Klei!

[GetNerfedOn]

4 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that trying to decide the outlook on cheese in general is less useful than looking at each individual strategy people may consider cheese on a case by case basis.

Despite the subjectivity there are at least common and objectively observable themes as to what cheese is, as i discussed in my previous post. But I will cede that perhaps it would have been wiser to define what cheese was prior to defining outlooks and attitudes on it.

The problem really is the subjectivity as mentioned; in my view, even if attempts were made in a forum like this people are more or less bound to disagree (vehemently) resulting in perpetual lack of consensus. Further, being hyper specific to define what counts as cheese on a case by case basis is subject to the same scrutiny.

[Cheggf]

I voted slightly dissatisfied because some cheese makes the game worse for people. Cheese that is very difficult to set up isn't harming anything, but extremely accessible cheese that completely removes fights unknowingly makes people miss out. Ten thousand years ago when the dfly fight was new I first did it with walls because everyone only did it with walls, until one day I did it without walls and it actually turned into a fight. I always hated the dfly fight and thought it was so boring but when I did it without walls it became pretty fun. 

[Waywarbler]

12 hours ago, Echsrick said:

well have you ever tried thinkin as to WHY someone would use cheese? and why it is a good thing that it sould stay? the new version alsol has its fair share of problems....that being ENEMY SPAMMING, thats right, those shadow tentacles that will fill up the area are in fact a bad game design

I mean, I wouldn't call that enemy spamming. This isn't like Possessed Varg flooding the area with reviving hounds. The shadow tentacles are stationary, untargetable, and despawn after attacking only once. They're more like traps, and I think they're fine (albeit it's a bit mean that AG spawns some on-death).

[Gashzer]

10 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

I haven't seen anybody else raise this point yet, but I may have missed something because I mostly skimmed through the responses, but what is and isn't a cheese strategy is mostly subjective. There will never be a consensus on what is and isn't cheese.

Is hiding some werepig bait behind some walls near pig houses cheese?

Is setting up a Varg farm cheese?

Is playing <insert character> cheese?

Is leading a hound attack into a beefalo herd cheese?

Is gunpowder cheese?

From my own experience, people are generally less likely to identify their own strategies as cheese strategies and are more likely to identify other people's strategies as cheese strategies.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that trying to decide the outlook on cheese in general is less useful than looking at each individual strategy people may consider cheese on a case by case basis.

Personally, I have used cheese and I will continue to use cheese as long as I am having fun. I sometimes play worlds with a specific theme or challenge and some cheese strategies can be integral or they may be impossible to pull off.

Werepig/pig bait is a weird one.. walls are doing what walls are meant to do, block things, but it needs a QoL update. Like there is no reason why they shouldn't attack walls to get the food or give them special animations that show them atleast sniffing the walls to avoid the stupid-looking sprinting into a brick wall scenario we have atm.

Varg farm is the same as pig farm , no reason why a varg can't attack a wall but a hound can. Breaks immersion even if it is a useful farm. Needs QoL update.

Leading hound attack to beefalos isn't a exploit or even a cheese that's just a basic survival tactic.

Gunpowder would be a cheese. But the grinding required to use it everytime doesn't make it as cheesy as let's say 40 bunnymen for bee queen which only requires a one time setup.

If the tactic or farm uses bugged pathfinding it's a exploit- so any statue-based farms or bugging toadstool on a pond are all exploits not cheese. 

Toadstool needs QoL update to get his foot trapped in the pond, pond then becomes solid land for a long cooldown period after which it fills back up with water to be reused as a trap again, this would allow us time to cut trees or attack him.