KLEI, please remove the cheese from shadow Chess

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Castiliano said:

Exactly the perfect way to deal with something broken in the game!

(no sarcasm)

Well, the best way to deal with it would be for the devs to not break the farm in the first place when the only people who want them to are the same people who probably want Minecraft redstone farms "patched" (in other words, not people who should be listened to).

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, the best way to deal with it would be for the devs to not break the farm in the first place when the only people who want them to are the same people who probably want Minecraft redstone farms "patched" (in other words, not people who should be listened to).

It’s a bit different in the case of a survival game.

I actually reported a bug not too long ago for a RogueLite I’ve been enjoying where one of the perks combined with a specific ability was just way wayyyyyy too broken.

See the perk would release a shockwave of projectiles from your character anytime another abilities cooldown would end, but.. there was one ability in particular that Had no cooldown so you could just keep spamming it and sending out endless shockwaves.

I managed to kill the games final boss with this ability too easily and I knew it was way to busted to be intentional, so once it was brought to the developers attention, they patched it so that it’s more balanced.

As much as there’s a certain group of players who feel using cheese strats is a valid strategy, and then there’s a group who feels cheese breaks the intended flow of the game.

I draw the line where Klei nerfs the games weapons usefulness (Aka giving enemies gunpowder resistance or changing them so bee mines don’t work) 

Theres an obvious difference between gathering the resources for 20 bee mines, or 100 gunpowders, and then just getting Klaus stuck on his loot stash (he doesn’t do that anymore but you get the point I’m trying to make.)

[Lovens]

Until FW keeps consuming shadow atrium each time you fight him this farm has every right to continue existing. You don't re-fight Crab King every time you kill CC - the essential component to spawn that boss drops from him upon death. Every other reanimated skeleton drops shadow atrium back on death. FW already consumes the ancient key and we have to re-fight AG for the next FW fight. Then why not make FW drop the atrium back on death together with fossils? There's already a cooldown on the gate preventing repeat fights. 

The main reason people use this method to obtain so many hearts is because they want to re-fight FW. Nobody does it for free shadow gear - it's not practical to carry around extra dark swords, it's a lot more practical to carry materials to craft them with. Plus dreadstone/shadow/lunar rift gear are better than dark swords and night armors for late game. I guarantee that people won't bother with this farm if they only need one heart for FW. Any other few hearts that might go into crafts would be just ok to farm by repeating shadow pieces fight normally. 

[00petar00]

On 9/9/2024 at 11:19 PM, ZeRoboButler said:

I feel like this is a bit of a exaggeration but there is some truth here, yes people will not like the idea of a rework. But to be entirely honest, why is this a factor at this point? People are averse to change, it happens a lot but in this case it would be an objectively better option. 

Lets face it, voidwalking and lureplants are evidence enough that eventually, klei will address bugs as best they can with the time they have. It's all about their priorities and time for them, and this could be an inevitability. 

Lets be as unbiased as we can here and say what is fundamentally true, Fighting the chess pieces has always had one effective way of fighting it (for characters that are not wurt) and it has made the fight unappealing, especially since it is a repeat fight for quite a few people. Bugs, exploits or techniques to subvert time consuming or uninteresting gameplay is a given when the intended way of interacting with the content is something to be desired. 

The lure plant collision was making it so a key part of progression and a very powerful effect on the world and ruins was being done with little to no effort. Fixing it was an easy choice, fuel weaver should be hard simple as that, especially for what his death ends up giving the player.

Voidwalking is patched in the beta as a means to make sure winona's bridges functioned appropriately, additionally leading to us as players being able to make our own bridges for an organic way to cross gaps in the caves (6 tiles long might I add, so far very useful). Not to mention, the atrium is getting looked at as well, with potential changes to how it's located as well. 

Change will happen eventually, and it is for the better. This isn't some attack on certain players and the way they want to play the game, it simply is the way the game is. There is a lot of stuff that is flawed with the fight and improvements as well as fixes are warranted.

Voidwalking and lureplants never harmed anyone not intending to use said mechanic. How many times do we have to emphasize that DST is a sandbox game? If a "bug" doesn't affect you but makes the game much more fun for other players it really shouldn't be fixed unless klei has an alternative method planned and we haven't gotten that for lureplant besides dreadstone pillars and for void walking bridges which are both very terrible and expensive methods with their own limitations.

Again, no one forces you to use these methods but other players may want to use them so why should these methods be removed besides you advocating for it when you are jealous or have other thoughts like only experts should be able to get there which is very gatekeepy.

The less options we have the worse sandbox game is, you can't really convince me against this way of thinking. I can understand bugs being patched that only make the game worse for everyone or when they have an impact on everyone but these are very specific bugs that only people that wanted to use them did so.

 

Lureplants and shadow pieces aren't bugs just to share some facts with you.

On 9/10/2024 at 2:16 AM, Well-met said:

literally 0 reason shadow pieces cant walk on the sea.

All other shadows can.

If you have thought about it a second you'd come to the same conclusion @Evelodid, most land nightmares don't bother you at ocean. Also this isn't even a bug, knight shadow piece never had similar ability to bishop and rook, they can jump over water because they have said abilities so klei wouldn't be patching a bug here but changing the game to satisfy you and other players that don't want others to be able to kill 100-200 shadow pieces at once.

 

[ZeRoboButler]

5 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Again, no one forces you to use these methods but other players may want to use them so why should these methods be removed besides you advocating for it when you are jealous or have other thoughts like only experts should be able to get there which is very gatekeepy.

The less options we have the worse sandbox game is, you can't really convince me against this way of thinking. I can understand bugs being patched that only make the game worse for everyone or when they have an impact on everyone but these are very specific bugs that only people that wanted to use them did so.

Hoho no no, I am not here to tell someone how to play the game or forbid someone have fun. I am not jealous of this method of heart acquisition, I don't find the hearts acquisition to be that big of a deal considering they literally only have one use. It would be like getting mad at someone for finding a new method to get opals, which is just silly since they don't do anything aside from 2 things. (3 if you are some sort of thrill seeker for crab king) 

I suppose some could argue on the armor and darkswords front, but i'm not sure why they drop those anyhow.

What I want, is for the intended way that klei made the game to be as fun as possible and I think that the shadow pieces are not that. My concern is not with this small interaction that couple people use, but I want to draw attention to the fight rather than that. If Klei where to look at it and consider the value of such a thing or how it affects the game, they may change it but not because people complained about it. 

I assure you my friend, I feel that the fight is the bigger issue, not some unintended mechanic that doesn't affect the way I play. (tried it once, didn't care for it, moved on as one should)

Have fun the way you want to bud, my opinion or input on that matter is irrelevant.

[cybers2001]

15 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Voidwalking and lureplants never harmed anyone not intending to use said mechanic. How many times do we have to emphasize that DST is a sandbox game? If a "bug" doesn't affect you but makes the game much more fun for other players it really shouldn't be fixed unless klei has an alternative method planned and we haven't gotten that for lureplant besides dreadstone pillars and for void walking bridges which are both very terrible and expensive methods with their own limitations.

It seems weirdly entitled to feel “owed” for compensation on a bug fix that results in losing an exploit. Both the lureplant fix and the void walking fix were done by Klei to address problems they had with new content. Exploits are never officially supported and are always prone to getting removed.

It’s not just getting removed as a means to stick it to the exploiters.

[Dingle]

3 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

It seems weirdly entitled to feel “owed” for compensation on a bug fix that results in losing an exploit. Both the lureplant fix and the void walking fix were done by Klei to address problems they had with new content. Exploits are never officially supported and are always prone to getting removed.

It’s not just getting removed as a means to stick it to the exploiters.

For voidwalking, it was a handy band-aid for the atrium tentapillar hunt being awful.

With it removed, you're just left with the bad design of it.

[EatenCheetos]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:21 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

Nah, I don't think I will. Fixing something is meant to be an improvement. Taking options away like that would be purely negative.

If they break that farm, I will install a mod that fixes it and makes it possible again. 

Go ahead and install your mods or use your console commands or whatever. Just let Klei fix and polish their game, it really is that shrimple.

5 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

It seems weirdly entitled to feel “owed” for compensation on a bug fix that results in losing an exploit. Both the lureplant fix and the void walking fix were done by Klei to address problems they had with new content. Exploits are never officially supported and are always prone to getting removed.

It’s not just getting removed as a means to stick it to the exploiters.

Exactly! People should not complain or be surprised when the developers patch exploits that they never should have been using in the first place!

[00petar00]

7 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

It seems weirdly entitled to feel “owed” for compensation on a bug fix that results in losing an exploit. Both the lureplant fix and the void walking fix were done by Klei to address problems they had with new content. Exploits are never officially supported and are always prone to getting removed.

It’s not just getting removed as a means to stick it to the exploiters.

You may have forgotten but according my memory klei has promised to revert lureplant change only for FW and never did it or say anything about it later.

I do want something in return added to the game but klei's solutions are so much worse, lureplant is replaced by 2 dreadstone pillars for FW and bridges are too expensive and very limited.

Why did lureplant change need to happen? It wasn't a bug as lureplant is a mob and it is more likely to consider it bugged now. Lureplant has worked like that for so many years so what is the problem with it working on scrappy werepig?

[Anis5240]

11 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

what is the problem with it working on scrappy werepig?

Because players can exploit his running animation when he's going to reach for the junk pile for new weapons. There was an old video that where after placing about 5 lureplants and "strategically" placed themselves within the lureplant area, they gonna let Scrappig hit them 3 times.

With the weapon falling off after the 3rd time, Scrappig will have to get a new item but because the lureplants blocked his path, he simply became a sitting duck and got smacked by the player without any retaliation until his defeat.

[00petar00]

4 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

Because players can exploit his running animation when he's going to reach for the junk pile for new weapons. There was an old video that where after placing about 5 lureplants and "strategically" placed themselves within the lureplant area, they gonna let Scrappig hit them 3 times.

With the weapon falling off after the 3rd time, Scrappig will have to get a new item but because the lureplants blocked his path, he simply became a sitting duck and got smacked by the player without any retaliation until his defeat.

Why does that matter? We literally had FW running into them without doing anything and he is one of the two endgame/most important bosses and is much more difficult. Scrappy werepig is a joke in comparison.

I always bring this up but this point is so important, this is a sandbox game so it should allow players to use unconventional methods and you won't accidentally use lureplants to kill these bosses as it would have to be player's choice. 

[Anis5240]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Why does that matter?

I have no real reason to hate the lureplant - and now, pillar - cheeses; if anything I use them pretty often. But the other people ("elitists") deemed Scrappig was easy BECAUSE of the lureplants and "want a real challenge".

Trust me when I said I hate tattletales more than critics.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

I have no real reason to hate the lureplant - and now, pillar - cheeses; if anything I use them pretty often. But the other people ("elitists") deemed Scrappig was easy BECAUSE of the lureplants and "want a real challenge".

Trust me when I said I hate tattletales more than critics.

They have the option of killing scrappy werepig without using lureplant, how is it a challenge now but it wasn't previously? Who is forcing them to use lureplants?

[Anis5240]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Who is forcing them to use lureplants?

Again, blame those "elitists".

[dst_lover]

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I always bring this up but this point is so important, this is a sandbox game so it should allow players to use unconventional methods and you won't accidentally use lureplants to kill these bosses as it would have to be player's choice. 

Bro unconventional methods is like letting boss kill other boss or monsters or fighting them in a creative ways not like the new toadstool glitch we’re he die in the void or using some exploit this is broken 

[EatenCheetos]

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Why does that matter?

Because it trivialized the fight.

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I always bring this up but this point is so important, this is a sandbox game so it should allow players to use unconventional methods and you won't accidentally use lureplants to kill these bosses as it would have to be player's choice. 

I think you’re a bit confused. Exploiting a glitch is not a “method” or a “strategy”. They’re exploits and should be removed, period.

[Anis5240]

13 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

They’re exploits and should be removed, period.

But this is a sandbox game, man. People can choose however they want to play/fight.

You see the variety of boss fights for ANR arc and now you just want a streamlined way to fight them????? That's boring as hell.

[EatenCheetos]

1 minute ago, Anis5240 said:

But this is a sandbox game, man. People can choose however they want to play/fight.

 

Again, exploiting a glitch is not a “method” or “strategy”. Just let Klei fix and polish their game, it really is that simple.

[grm9]

51 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Just let Klei fix and polish their game, it really is that simple

what benefit's any one going to get out of that

51 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Again, exploiting a glitch is not a “method” or “strategy”

why?

[EatenCheetos]

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

removing a strat'sn't fixing nor polishing

Exploiting a glitch is not a strat. Removing a glitch is fixing / polishing.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, EatenCheetos said:

Exploiting a glitch is not a strat. Removing a glitch is fixing / polishing

why

[Anis5240]

14 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Exploiting a glitch is not a strat.

So you're saying that pig farms and varg farms also fall into this "exploit"?????? They just use the same concept as the lureplant cheese. You put a bait unreached by the mobs, then smack the hell out of them while they're distracted.

[EatenCheetos]

10 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

So you're saying that pig farms and varg farms also fall into this "exploit"??????

Correct. Those farms exploit broken pathing mechanics. Ideally, Klei should implement a pathfinding check to see if a path is impossible to reach, and if so, those mobs should change their priority to attacking walls or otherwise ignore the target.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

what benefit's any one going to get out of that

The game will benefit by being more fixed / polished. It really is that simple.

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why

Because that’s the definition of fixing / polishing.

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

The game will benefit by being more fixed / polished. It really is that simple

what's the benefit from that

26 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

Because that’s the definition of fixing / polishing

what's the benefit from it and no, removing an unintended thing that ended up making some thing better'sn't fixing nor polishing and even if it's, that doesn't matter because doing that's only detrimental

[Topazaz]

48 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said:

The game will benefit by being more fixed / polished. It really is that simple.

How? Being more polished and more logical is not equal being more fun. Having pig farms is more beneficial to the game and more fun than grinding/killing them by youself. Same with shadow pieces.