Let's calm down, Wurt lovers.

[Trevindo]

I'm here to say that the forum has been flooded with topics about a skill tree, which we haven't seen in full, and the only point we all agree on is that no one agrees on anything. I'll comment on some of the ideas that have come up and give my opinion.

"Merms should be better against bosses with area damage": unfortunately, this is not something we can work on without drastic changes to the Merms' stats, and even then it would be irrelevant since bosses designed to deal area damage are that way for a reason, right?

"Mosquitoes are annoying": I actually find it fun to deal with mosquitoes, which I consider to have some of the most underutilized loot in the entire game and they deserve more attention. I don't know if in the way it was done, but it's already progress, we have something with them.

"Wurt shouldn't deal with farming since that's Wormwood's focus": I agree that Wurt shouldn't be better than Wormwood when it comes to farming, but I disagree that she shouldn't have any farming-related items at all.

"Merms should be more useful, like farmers and fishermen": this was actually a suggestion I made a long time ago, but it extended to pigs as well. Nowadays, I think this idea is viable, but maybe not for these specific tasks (fishermen and farmers). I think we already have too many automation options for these tasks, but few for manufacturers and heavy material carriers.

[chirsg]

I'm not 100% qualified to speak on merms and wurt. Wurt is only my 3rd played character and the gap between Wurt and woodie is like, 5x.

All I know is that seldom does almost anyone play using bee mines aside from crab king, which in the displayed preview stream, I don't think bees will work reliably any longer. The logic can be applied to mosquitos.

All I can say is, I'm kind of glad I'm not a Wurt main. I still maintain that she's a great character because any character that has a guaranteed bee queen kill is good. 

 

not sure if anyone says that merms should be better against aoe damage bosses. The only thing I can think of is having some sort of "merm horn" to put all merms in a state of retreat. I.E. when the horn is blown, all merms will prioritize running away from any hostile and when blared again, they return to default hostility.

 

Not my place though. I'm not a wurt main. All I can do is sit back and watch

[grm9]

1 minute ago, chirsg said:

any character that has a guaranteed bee queen kill is good

so all characters?

[Mysterious box]

14 minutes ago, Trevindo said:

Wurt shouldn't deal with farming since that's Wormwood's focus": I agree that Wurt shouldn't be better than Wormwood when it comes to farming, but I disagree that she shouldn't have any farming-related items at all.

I've said it many times already so I'll just summarize Wurt doesn't benefit from farming as much as other characters which is where my issue with improving farming for her lies.

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Trevindo said:

Merms should be better against bosses with area damage": unfortunately, this is not something we can work on without drastic changes to the Merms' stats, and even then it would be irrelevant since bosses designed to deal area damage are that way for a reason, right?

They are already good against bosses with area damage. Worst case scenario they deal a good amount of damage and drop free loot. Their kiting and bulk is often good enough.

2 hours ago, Trevindo said:

"Mosquitoes are annoying": I actually find it fun to deal with mosquitoes, which I consider to have some of the most underutilized loot in the entire game and they deserve more attention. I don't know if in the way it was done, but it's already progress, we have something with them.

I agree. Its why i believe they should make the mosquito crafts (besides the doll) available for everyone. They are still designed for Wurt, but no longer a weird and niche set locked to a character skilltree who often wont need them.

2 hours ago, Trevindo said:

"Wurt shouldn't deal with farming since that's Wormwood's focus": I agree that Wurt shouldn't be better than Wormwood when it comes to farming, but I disagree that she shouldn't have any farming-related items at all.

I agree. Though, she can have merms who help with farming.

2 hours ago, Trevindo said:

"Merms should be more useful, like farmers and fishermen": this was actually a suggestion I made a long time ago, but it extended to pigs as well. Nowadays, I think this idea is viable, but maybe not for these specific tasks (fishermen and farmers). I think we already have too many automation options for these tasks, but few for manufacturers and heavy material carriers.

Yes. But fishing and farming are not automated tasks though.

[Trevindo]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I've said it many times already so I'll just summarize Wurt doesn't benefit from farming as much as other characters which is where my issue with improving farming for her lies.

I imagine this is more due to the playstyle each player adopts with her. For example, I love using potatoes as my main healing source for Wurt since pierogi isn't an option. I like it when there's more than one way to interpret the same character, like the addition of the totem that helps revive the Merms. Personally, I'll never use it, but I understand those who like the idea for mass production of fish and frog legs through Merm slaughter.

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

They are already good against bosses with area damage. Worst case scenario they deal a good amount of damage and drop free loot. Their kiting and bulk is often good enough.

I don't think they are ideal for dealing with this type of boss since we have cheaper ways to do that, but I agree with keeping them as they are.

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I agree. Its why i believe they should make the mosquito crafts (besides the doll) available for everyone. They are still designed for Wurt, but no longer a weird and niche set locked to a character skilltree who often wont need them.

I completely agree with you; it's sad that such underutilized resources only get some attention when interpreted by a single character.

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I agree. Though, she can have merms who help with farming.

Yes. But fishing and farming are not automated tasks though.

My question is, how could they help? For example, we have resources to talk to plants like the gramophone and the fly, for nutrients we have agricultural combo systems, and we have some monoculture setups that need soil nutrition only once. Something I miss is ways to carry giant vegetables, besides Beefalos or options locked behind certain characters, and watering methods that require less constant monitoring.

[Uedo]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I've said it many times already so I'll just summarize Wurt doesn't benefit from farming as much as other characters which is where my issue with improving farming for her lies.

Absolutely this. 

In a wurt run i care only for potatos and toma roots, everything else is an annoyance and, it's been a while so i might misremember, i'm pretty sure stone fruits just became my last go-to for the early game last time I played her.

Edit: The mosquito bomb seems interesting if it's going to let Wurt heal with the blood sacs, but it's so niche and I feel it's just going to be useless in combat, as it's either not really gonna contribute much and if we have merms with us (although no doubt this'll be a skill on the tree) they'll fight each other

[Jakepeng99]

33 minutes ago, Trevindo said:

My question is, how could they help? For example, we have resources to talk to plants like the gramophone and the fly, for nutrients we have agricultural combo systems, and we have some monoculture setups that need soil nutrition only once. Something I miss is ways to carry giant vegetables, besides Beefalos or options locked behind certain characters, and watering methods that require less constant monitoring.

Merms love water. They can help water which is a niche not provided. Things like merms with spittle fish can water them for payment.

 

Wurt and Wormwood players can properly join forces.

[Mike23Ua]

Guys, please go rewatch the Klei stream, at least the part where they talk about Wurt, the devs mention that they can’t show her skill tree because they’re still deciding what her skills are even going to be.

the one thing that felt off to me from watching that stream though was the Fertilzer Wurt can craft, yeah I get that maybe it’s because she doesn’t eat meats so farming perk or whatever… but there’s enough fertilizers in the game, Wurt doesn’t really need one of her own? So my suggestion is to repurpose this into something more like wormwoods compost wrap (the stuff he rubs on himself to heal himself)

For Wurt this item would be used to make Mosquitos passive to her, they won’t attack her, however… what they WILL now do is hover around her and follow her, (think like those annoying gnat bug things in the hamlet DLC when you get too close to their nests)

Now you’re asking why would Wurt intentionally want Mosquitos hovering around her? Well.. She would literally become like the annoying gnats in Hamlet, they’d follow her around attracted to the swamp gunk she’s rubbed all over herself, she could then proceed to walk right into a village full of pig** and her mosquitos would scatter about to attack them.

In addition to the thrown Bombs themselves, let Wurt wear this stuff and run toward mosquito ponds to start having them follow the scent of the compost gunk she’s rubbed the scent on herself with.

this goop can even be applied to any non Wurt characters! But of course… only Wurt can craft it.  

With there being THREE WEEKS between now and the beta even starting, I figured I’d make this suggestion now so it can be looked into and tested during the beta phase.

[Jakepeng99]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

the devs mention that they can’t show her skill tree because they’re still deciding what her skills are even going to be.

I knew it was unfinished code wise, but i never knew the concept was unfinished too.

[Masked Koopa]

I mean I don't see it as a negative that people are reacting strongly. As Mike rightly points out we're not even in the beta period yet, so I don't think we're at the point where we need to go "ah but the tree isn't bad overall it just has a a bunch of bad/uneeded perks on it". We can do better than settle for a compromise with the development time remaining, especially since Winona and Crab King seem way more in line with what people wanted from them.

I don't think it's a bad thing if we are being "unfair" because the skills they didnt show are/are gonna be more in line with what we want from Wurt. That just means Klei can feel confident in those skills, and focus on re-tooling the ones they did show.

I also disagree with the premise that noone agrees on anything. This is quite possibly the most unanimous disapproval I have ever seen for a set of features. I think it's fair to say that this is as close to everyone agreeing as its possible to get.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Trevindo said:

I imagine this is more due to the playstyle each player adopts with her. For example, I love using potatoes as my main healing source for Wurt since pierogi isn't an option. I like it when there's more than one way to interpret the same character, like the addition of the totem that helps revive the Merms. Personally, I'll never use it, but I understand those who like the idea for mass production of fish and frog legs through Merm slaughter.

It's not about playstyle in this situation there are multiple crop types that have no value to a Wurt player because the limited amount of non meat dishes that are actually good. You can selectively grow crops that Wurt can use effectively but it just amounts to more time consuming alternatives as the only good crops for her are tomatoes, potatoes, and dragon fruits with the former two being valued because they're mostly self sustaining healing meaning the fertilizer isn't even useful for them and the latter for being the only good crockpot dish for Wurt that comes out of the farm is that really worth basing a entire skill on farming over? It would be like giving Wanda a beekeeping skill because her favorite food needs honey.

As for the totems merm guards respawn every 4 minutes are you really getting a skill to make them respawn 1 to 2 minutes faster for your farming of fish? Will they have even all died in that time? If the justification is that it speeds up fish and frogleg production for other characters I'm even more against the totem just make it a universal respawn booster people can unlock for all mobs at that point.

[Jakepeng99]

53 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I mean I don't see it as a negative that people are reacting strongly. As Mike rightly points out we're not even in the beta period yet, so I don't think we're at the point where we need to go "ah but the tree isn't bad overall it just has a a bunch of bad/uneeded perks on it". We can do better than settle for a compromise with the development time remaining, especially since Winona and Crab King seem way more in line with what people wanted from them.

I don't think it's a bad thing if we are being "unfair" because the skills they didnt show are/are gonna be more in line with what we want from Wurt. That just means Klei can feel confident in those skills, and focus on re-tooling the ones they did show.

I also disagree with the premise that noone agrees on anything. This is quite possibly the most unanimous disapproval I have ever seen for a set of features. I think it's fair to say that this is as close to everyone agreeing as its possible to get.

It shows people care about Wurt.

(Also, if we pretend we are fine with it and say we just want small changes, that is probably worse for the game and character.)

52 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

you really getting a skill to make them respawn 1 to 2 minutes faster for your farming of fish?

It doesnt make much difference anyway. Assuming you have a decent amount, Merm guards respawn so fast that they likely will respawn before you collect all the drops.

[Echsrick]

calming down? you do know its the klei forum yes? i dont think many know the word "calm down" especialy when its about a character they like and feel said character gets unfairly something bad

[Cruvimaster]

I think people should be happy to have information about something that will only come in almost 3 weeks.

But that's not how it works.

The developers will probably no longer do this with the next characters, leaving it to be revealed only at the launch of the beta version.

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

I think people should be happy to have information about something that will only come in almost 3 weeks.

But that's not how it works.

The developers will probably no longer do this with the next characters, leaving it to be revealed only at the launch of the beta version.

Winona's was a good showcase.

[kroban]

We only got shown like 3 things from Wurt and everyone is just going insane at this thing, yall gotta calm down, Klei hasnt even talked about what is basically the main aspect of Wurt, her mermfolks.

[Echsrick]

6 minutes ago, kroban said:

We only got shown like 3 things from Wurt and everyone is just going insane at this thing, yall gotta calm down, Klei hasnt even talked about what is basically the main aspect of Wurt, her mermfolks.

its because they showed the 3 worst possible things, and that makes people worry alot naturaly

[Fill-Lips]

My only two gripes with the Wurt skills we were shown are:

1. What's the cost of the crafts
2. What's the point of the fertilizer

If the costs of the crafts require catching live mosquitos, then I would honestly never make them myself, as I wouldn't spend my time crafting bug nets, collecting mosquitos and then using them for bombs if they were just going to do minuscule damage for like, a minute. Cos that's how long I expect them to last in a fight at best.

As for the fertilizer, I never find myself needing to use it at all for farming at all, as managing a farm's fertilizer levels is very easy with the correct plant combinations. So what's the point of dedicating a skill to being able to craft a lesser compost wrap?

 

The rest of the showcase, the healing item I'm unsure of, because again, what's the cost and how potent is it? The kelp altar sounds alright, and if it allows enabling merm respawn in winter, I would be very happy. And the mention of an amphibian section... Oooooo, I wonder how they'll make that work, as I'm excited for that.

[Mysterious box]

34 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I think people should be happy to have information about something that will only come in almost 3 weeks.

But that's not how it works.

The developers will probably no longer do this with the next characters, leaving it to be revealed only at the launch of the beta version.

I can't speak for everyone but I don't think people are mad it's more so people are hoping to convey that some of the skills seem like bad ideas before they get too far into devolpement which I imagine was the main reason they showed off Wurt's few skills despite being so unfinished waiting until the beta to make a judgement is fine but by that point some things might end up irreversible atleast until a future update.

8 minutes ago, Fill-Lips said:

The rest of the showcase, the healing item I'm unsure of, because again, what's the cost and how potent is it? The kelp altar sounds alright, and if it allows enabling merm respawn in winter, I would be very happy. And the mention of an amphibian section... Oooooo, I wonder how they'll make that work, as I'm excited for that.

From what they said we would stab a merm with it to heal them that's about all we know on that part.

As for normal merms in winter you can light their homes on fire if you want them to leave it otherwise they just sit inside the house their spawning mechanic doesn't change it just makes them not leave in winter once they respawn.

[Jakepeng99]

45 minutes ago, kroban said:

We only got shown like 3 things from Wurt and everyone is just going insane at this thing, yall gotta calm down, Klei hasnt even talked about what is basically the main aspect of Wurt, her mermfolks.

The amphibian, swamp domination, shrine, merm ai and mosquito stuff suggest it is not as big as anticipated. But we will see.

[Creatorofswamps]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I also disagree with the premise that noone agrees on anything. This is quite possibly the most unanimous disapproval I have ever seen for a set of features. I think it's fair to say that this is as close to everyone agreeing as its possible to get

[kroban]

4 hours ago, Echsrick said:

its because they showed the 3 worst possible things, and that makes people worry alot naturaly

I understand some amount of worrying, but like half the people in the forum are just straight up trashing on what was shown in dev stream, when we all barely even know what they do.

With the shrine for example, we don't know if that's going to be part of a "tier set of perks" where the shrine gives more and more things to merm, like + planar armor, damage, speed, or even some unique ability at the end.

About "mosquito mines" we also know nothing other than, well, it's a mosquito mine. What if, for example, it does decent damage, is extremely cheap to craft, and if Wurt chooses an alignment even mutates mosquitoes and merms? What if the craft actually requires her new "syringe" to craft it but mosquitoes exploding AoE heals the merms in some perk??

My point is, some people here are jumping to conclusions in the least charitable way towards Klei; we havent even been shown the actual perks, yet half the people here are treating it as if it were something thats coming out tomorrow.

[Jakepeng99]

12 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

also disagree with the premise that noone agrees on anything. This is quite possibly the most unanimous disapproval I have ever seen for a set of features. I think it's fair to say that this is as close to everyone agreeing as its possible to get.

I only met one casual Wurt person who disagreed (they commented on how they are happy mosquitos wont attack them). The rest are people saying "wait till the rest releases".

6 hours ago, kroban said:

I understand some amount of worrying, but like half the people in the forum are just straight up trashing on what was shown in dev stream, when we all barely even know what they do.

With the shrine for example, we don't know if that's going to be part of a "tier set of perks" where the shrine gives more and more things to merm, like + planar armor, damage, speed, or even some unique ability at the end.

About "mosquito mines" we also know nothing other than, well, it's a mosquito mine. What if, for example, it does decent damage, is extremely cheap to craft, and if Wurt chooses an alignment even mutates mosquitoes and merms? What if the craft actually requires her new "syringe" to craft it but mosquitoes exploding AoE heals the merms in some perk??

My point is, some people here are jumping to conclusions in the least charitable way towards Klei; we havent even been shown the actual perks, yet half the people here are treating it as if it were something thats coming out tomorrow.

All your stuff though is heavy speculation. They would have mentioned things like the shrine granting planar damage later on similar to what they done with Winona's unfinished abilities (that would be a red flag if that was added). There are a lot of people who don't like these items as they don't fit Wurt, regardless of them being powerful or not.