More content does not equal better game

[Copyafriend]

I love klei, and i think they do really good work in all the games they develop (love me some ONI)

 

However, i feel like klei has a tendency to focus on updated that add “content” rather than improving the gameplay loops that already exist. Content is great, and i love having more stuff. But stuff doesn’t always mean a better time playing the game.

 

the best update in recent memory, and the one that had the most impact on new players, didnt add very much at all, it instead completely reworked an existing system - farming. Reap what you sow is - as far as i can tell at least; generally considered a fantastic update. While skill trees and rift content is considered divisive or downright unpopular. 
 

It just feels to me that one or two updates a year should focus on older less interesting systems. Maybe a follower update, or maybe an update to the ruins themselves, or a world generation update. 
 

to me, while these updated would be less flashy and draw less attention, they would have an overall bigger impact on the actual minute by minute gameplay of all characters. 
 

my main reason for recommending this is that to me at least, adding content for contents sake has a tendency to lead to bloat more than it has a tendency to lead to actual improvements.

 

for instance: while the crafting update was controversial, i will say that it works better than the old system. It also allows for new stuff like more ingredients in a single craft.

This is a foundation to the game that is now just flat out better than it once was, and i feel like more things can and should get this treatment.

 

[BalkanCockroach]

18 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I love klei, and i think they do really good work in all the games they develop (love me some ONI)

 

However, i feel like klei has a tendency to focus on updated that add “content” rather than improving the gameplay loops that already exist. Content is great, and i love having more stuff. But stuff doesn’t always mean a better time playing the game.

 

the best update in recent memory, and the one that had the most impact on new players, didnt add very much at all, it instead completely reworked an existing system - farming. Reap what you sow is - as far as i can tell at least; generally considered a fantastic update. While skill trees and rift content is considered divisive or downright unpopular. 
 

It just feels to me that one or two updates a year should focus on older less interesting systems. Maybe a follower update, or maybe an update to the ruins themselves, or a world generation update. 
 

to me, while these updated would be less flashy and draw less attention, they would have an overall bigger impact on the actual minute by minute gameplay of all characters. 
 

my main reason for recommending this is that to me at least, adding content for contents sake has a tendency to lead to bloat more than it has a tendency to lead to actual improvements.

 

for instance: while the crafting update was controversial, i will say that it works better than the old system. It also allows for new stuff like more ingredients in a single craft.

This is a foundation to the game that is now just flat out better than it once was, and i feel like more things can and should get this treatment.

 

I 100% agree, i do wanna see the lore and game wrap up though and the only way that happens is through content updates. So i'd say like a balance of half content half ironing out is good but if that hapoens it's gonna take ages till the arcs finish.

[Jakepeng99]

I really want them to add more atmosphere and life to the world. Adding the mud in swamps from the valentimes trailor, and making pigs and merms fight over it would be incrediable. Way more impactful tha a year worth of updates.

[Cassielu]

I don't think updating new content or reworking old content is the root of the problem, the problem is that developers are almost paranoid about "bringing new gameplay" without thinking about how to integrate new content into existing gameplay.

If that doesn't change, update the old content is just making the problem bigger.

[Uedo]

They need to conclude the story, they had plenty of opportunity to do so instead of random content updates. They then need to refine preexisting content and/or finish some of the unfinished and out of place content. Then they need to stop. It WAS fine, it's getting less fine, like gum - you can keep sticking fresh sticks in your mouth to add some flavour, but quickly it loses the taste, we should maybe finish up now before we're left with a gigantic flavourless blob.

[Jakepeng99]

5 minutes ago, Uedo said:

They need to conclude the story, they had plenty of opportunity to do so instead of random content updates. They then need to refine preexisting content and/or finish some of the unfinished and out of place content. Then they need to stop. It WAS fine, it's getting less fine, like gum - you can keep sticking fresh sticks in your mouth to add some flavour, but quickly it loses the taste, we should maybe finish up now before we're left with a gigantic flavourless blob.

I am kinda bored of the story at this point since it feels like it is not advancing much. I prefer a bunch of little stories that can sometimes tie together. Like the romio and juliet short, like character origins and stuff, the gorge lore ect.

[zhangsheng]

7 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

I don't think updating new content or reworking old content is the root of the problem, the problem is that developers are almost paranoid about "bringing new gameplay" without thinking about how to integrate new content into existing gameplay.

If that doesn't change, update the old content is just making the problem bigger.

I completely agree with your point of view that Klei did not adjust the relationship between the new system and the old system, but forcibly replaced the old system with the new system. Looking at the various useful weapons in the past, they are not worth mentioning in terms of plane damage and defense.

It can only be said that this fast-paced mode similar to the RPG process is not very suitable for sandbox games like DST, which tend to have a slower pace.

[Uedo]

10 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I am kinda bored of the story at this point since it feels like it is not advancing much. I prefer a bunch of little stories that can sometimes tie together. Like the romio and juliet short, like character origins and stuff, the gorge lore ect.

Yeah same; The story isn't a story anymore it's a constant dreary theme, nothing feels driven by purpose. Characters lack motivation and purpose, they seemingly drift from one thing to the other - like the player.

[Cheggf]

The two best updates Don't Starve Together has ever received over its decade of being out are reworking the farming system and reworking the crafting menu. Anyone who likes beefalo would also likely add the rework given to beefalo domestication in YotB. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of those systems focused on improving existing content rather than adding new content.

[kehun]

I would love to see stuff like: New Setpieces, Little updates for biomes, New trees, plants, maybe some new berrie type? 

[Castiliano]

Cooking system, biomes, bosses (specially crab king) and even critters would be nice to get rework

[grm9]

52 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

The two best updates Don't Starve Together has ever received over its decade of being out are reworking the farming system and reworking the crafting menu

that's only counting RoT updates though, i probably wouldn't have been playing the game if everything from ANR wouldn't have been there 

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Uedo said:

Yeah same; The story isn't a story anymore it's a constant dreary theme, nothing feels driven by purpose. Characters lack motivation and purpose, they seemingly drift from one thing to the other - like the player.

Wagstaffs just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. If he wants power, why?

We just got a few random old quotes backing his entire story up.

[ButterStuffed]

Alternate take, this new content is lackluster due to increased development time caused by the technical debt DST has accrued over its entire life span.

Time constraints prevent devs from fully fleshing out the content and ultimately the content is considered disappointing for a lot of the player base.

Updates that rework old content tend to come out more fleshed out since pre-existing systems/assets can be recycled and more time can be put towards improving the update.

I agree that Klei should polish up old content more often. I just love those kinds of updates. However I disagree with the notion that “new” content is what is causing the issues we’ve seen in recent updates. That implies a level of creative incompetence in Klei that I simply think isn’t true.

I’m holding a lot of hope that the changes to the update schedule will remedy the noted problems.

Anyways, good take. Hardly see constructive criticism that doesn’t immediately devolve into nonsense, so this was a breath of fresh air.

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I don't think updating new content or reworking old content is the root of the problem, the problem is that developers are almost paranoid about "bringing new gameplay" without thinking about how to integrate new content into existing gameplay.

If that doesn't change, update the old content is just making the problem bigger.

I suggested sometime back ago that any huge foundational changes to how the game world shouldn’t even try to Retro-fit into players existing worlds.

My #1 Reason for this was that it flat out doesn’t do it properly most the time, and looks or is broken, and it takes away further development time that could have been spent doing something else.

My Secondary reasoning however is that Klei is trying to add new content into the game that molds itself “Around” players 50,000+ Day multiple biome spanning Theme Park Tycoons. (Yeah I over-exaggerated that a bit.. but the point is..)

Any major changes to the way the game works- Aka: Mob Behavior Updates, Weather Pattern Updates, The way biomes and land masses are generated, the way the Ocean content is generated, all of that could seriously “disrupt” those long standing 50,000+ day worlds.

Sure it’s great to be able to turn content on/off, or simply Opt into not starting the Rift Stuff- But that’s also a very very straightforward and Clear example of how Klei keeps trying to literally design new content for their game “Around” these longer standing worlds.

And I’m no game developer, but I can tell you that if Klei were to abandon DST and trying to continue to add new content that fits itself in & “around” existing content, and they instead made a brand new DS 2 where content is designed to fit into the game properly the way the developers intended for it to before the players even got to beta test or provide feedback on it- i guarantee you that DS2 would feel like a more complete & coherent package.

As much as people hate Fortnite, even THOSE developers have enough sense to know that updating the same map over and over and over with new content that exists around already existing content sometimes just isn’t possible to do, so that gives them an excuse to at the end of each season- “Destroy” those maps and replace them with new ones where all the newer update designs are intended to work with the new map. 

Or the TL:DR we’ve been riding on a train track that goes around in a circle around a Christmas tree, but because of that- the game can never reach any new destination.

(this is all of course subjectively, my opinion.)

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, ButterStuffed said:

Alternate take, this new content is lackluster due to increased development time caused by the technical debt DST has accrued over its entire life span.

Time constraints prevent devs from fully fleshing out the content and ultimately the content is considered disappointing for a lot of the player base.

Updates that rework old content tend to come out more fleshed out since pre-existing systems/assets can be recycled and more time can be put towards improving the update.

I agree that Klei should polish up old content more often. I just love those kinds of updates. However I disagree with the notion that “new” content is what is causing the issues we’ve seen in recent updates. That implies a level of creative incompetence in Klei that I simply think isn’t true.

I’m holding a lot of hope that the changes to the update schedule will remedy the noted problems.

Anyways, good take. Hardly see constructive criticism that doesn’t immediately devolve into nonsense, so this was a breath of fresh air.

I agree that time constraints are probably a factor. Truthfully, I guess it's kinda hard to say where it's all gonna be near the end of the lifetime of the game (not criticism there, everything ends at somepoint - in the sense that development stops), I just hope it sits in a solid position. It's such a nice little niche in the survival genre and the art style has always made it stand out, it's be such a shame for it end with untapped potential.

I hope the disconnect i'm having with the current release of new content doesn't last and it eventually loops round to tie-up loose ends, but if we're going with what's happened historically, I worry that we'll repeat cycles of frantic attempts to appease the fanbase followed by long periods of miscommunication before we do it all over again.

I unno.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I think the idea was to change gameplay loops with Through the Ages as the world would evolve as you play or something but ended up being Terraria esq like rift opening. 

I do think the opposite and that adding new content and creatures would allow Klei to open up world generation options and build new scenarios if they'd wish to do some. Generally good reason to pump more content for the sake for future customization they'll open up later on if they will be planning anything with it.

They've been updating some older items that had less use and giving them a little bit more which is nice, they should be a little bolder though what they haven't tinkered with and what they COULD tinker with.

Small weapon reworks would do nicely, employing actual use like firestaff and firedarts for dealing with deerclops is a smash from me, same with needing to bring a pickaxe when dealing with sharkboi's ice cages. Smart boss designs and tool uses for later on.

If the idea is for us to adapt and use all tools and weapons at our disposal then I say they have to go HARD on that to make the game more interesting. Some items are really hardly utilized, especially blowdarts now, bee mines, cat'o'three tails... 

Would be kinda cool if you could just toss a bee mine like a grenade and let the bees to ham on whatever, or even upgrade one with royal jelly to make them into grumbles that would go all speedy and angry!

[Mr Giggio]

Look, I do agree with ya. For example some biomes could use an improvement. But u can improve, adding.

 

Like for example, spyglasses would solve a bunch of ocean problems in DST. It's adding an item to make the actual content more organic.

 

I would love to see more life in swamp and deserts. Scorpions for example. Sand. Like, more than just tentacles/mosquitoes/merms that u avoid while grabbing reeds till u have your farm from Moon quay. So ye, +1, but giving the heads up that adding can also improve

3 hours ago, kehun said:

maybe some new berrie type

New fruits would be awesome cuz right now figs and bananas has their own recipes and stuff like fruit medley could use more sources to be useful again

[arubaro]

I think that if klei wanted to release content for the sake of releasing content they would take the easy route and simply add mobs and ores/materials that dont add anything unique or interesting. Instead they break their heads with complicated damage formulas, developing stuff that needs way too much time to work like creating new tiles with the moon rifts or docks ,etc

You may dislike it but the content they release dont feel like the cheap and easy route to me

 

[Mr Giggio]

1 hour ago, ButterStuffed said:

That implies a level of creative incompetence in Klei that I simply think isn’t true

Agreed. They deserve props cuz they are on point with not only art but  a lot of details. 

5 minutes ago, arubaro said:

they break their heads with complicated damage formulas, developing stuff that needs way too much time to work like creating new tiles with the moon rifts or docks ,etc

Exactly the point

[arubaro]

24 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

Scorpions

I love scorpions from hamlet, them and dragoons are 2 of the most fun mobs of the franchise. We dont need 5736262 bosses to enjoy combat, they could add more regular mobs with interesting patterns to fill empty biomes 

[The Starver]

Ya know, the weird thing is that when @Mike23Ua explained his idea for new biomes using existing content, I immediately put together ideas... but I didn't count on my brain coming up with some weird stuff. Like for the desert biome he wants, I think it would be awesome to occasionally find a randomly generated pyramid structure similar to the pig ruins in Hamlet, where you go in and have to evade traps and stuff, etc. It's not totally related, but I just wanted to let people know that there are people out there (me) who have decided to do the little they can to improve the game, or just their experience, instead of sitting around arguing.

[Well-met]

it does when its done correctly.

[Uedo]

15 minutes ago, The Starver said:

Ya know, the weird thing is that when @Mike23Ua explained his idea for new biomes using existing content, I immediately put together ideas... but I didn't count on my brain coming up with some weird stuff. Like for the desert biome he wants, I think it would be awesome to occasionally find a randomly generated pyramid structure similar to the pig ruins in Hamlet, where you go in and have to evade traps and stuff, etc. It's not totally related, but I just wanted to let people know that there are people out there (me) who have decided to do the little they can to improve the game, or just their experience, instead of sitting around arguing.

Nobody's arguing, this is a pretty nice thread tbh  

The temples were quite fun in Hamlet - Hamlets always felt like something that looks portable to DST imo, I'd like to see it in some form. I'd probably prefer the ruins to be looked at before newer content but i'd love to see it some day

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

foundational changes to how the game world shouldn’t even try to Retro-fit into players existing worlds.

My #1 Reason for this was that it flat out doesn’t do it properly most the time, and looks or is broken, and it takes away further development time that could have been spent doing something else.

The world im playing currently has like 2 years old and anything retrofitted looks broken and works totally in the intended way. The only "broken" thing i ever experienced with retrofitting is when they added the grotto and they put it in an "island" accesible via wormhole

You are spreading misinformation once again