Why is Wigfrid, of all people, the one who gets beefalo riding perks?

[CameoAppearance]

The main reason I see people taming beefalo, besides moving statue pieces, is to make combat safer and easier. (Speed too, but we have yellow amulets, walking canes, and WX-78 and Wormwood's perks for that.) Wigfrid's damage multiplier and damage reduction don't apply when she's on a beefalo, which specifically incentivises her to skip the beefalo and wade into the fray herself. Why is she suddenly the beefalo character? It doesn't make sense to me. I guess by the time you get to the end of the branch it compensates for the poor synchronicity of a pre-skilltree or Arsenal-specced Wigfrid with beefalo, but the first two perks don't, they just mean you can spend more time on the beefalo not getting the benefits of your unmounted combat perks.

Why give this to Wigfrid in particular instead of Wendy, or Wes, or even someone like Winona who could go either way on beefalo taming? I guess there are some characters who it would be more out-of-place on lorewise, like it might be odd to put it on Webber if everything else he gets revolves around spiders, but Wigfrid seems like a really suboptimal choice on a mechanical level.

[-Variant]

I asked myself the same thing.

But uh, funnily enough, I think my neighbor who doesn't even know the series got it right.
I was on a trip to the doctors and was verbally ranting about how this character named Wigfrid got a beefalo based line in a skill tree and how it didn't make sense and they were like "I guess the beefalo is the closest thing to a steed thematically speaking" and I'm starting to think that's why.

I think it might be more for theming than genuine need for it. I feel like Wig is the last person to benefit from it. But of all the characters I can't think of any others that fit the bill that well, either. MAYBE Walter. Maybe.

[GimplyGoose]

I agree that Wigfrid has less to gain from taming a beefalo compared to other characters, but that is why I think it is a good thing she is getting beefalo skills. It shores up a "weakness" (not really a weakness since she is still just as good as other characters on a beefalo, other characters just gain more) and thematically it fits perfectly. Wigfrid's delusions not only power her up, but they inspire her allies as well. I think her beefalo should similarly be inspired.

Also, I mostly think of the beefalo skills on wigfrid to be "off-brand" skills sort of like quick picker on Woodie. I think it should be expected that most characters will get some amount of skills like that.

On a side note, have you heard the new riding music while you have beefalo skills on Wigfrid? It is very nice.

 

[Yuuko]

It is 100% thematic reasoning not mechanical reasoning - and I'm mostly okay with that.

When developing the characters they need to come at it from a thematic perspective first, and a mechanical second.  The beef is the Valkyrie's steed, obviously.  Thematically its a perfect fit.

That doesn't answer that its an atrocious idea mechanically - and instead of fixing that they just kinda.... don't.... lol  Its probably the biggest dissonance in design I've ever seen.

BUT I think it can be fixed pretty easily.

Instead of giving her planar damage and ride time

- give her inspiration while riding.  Wig often can't use inspiration out of boss fights b/c the gains are so low, this would let her get a free song or two after riding.

- let her use her weapon from mounted like Walter does on Woby.  They could update her spear and shield abilities to have a "when mounted" version.  The shield could do a stunning strike, while the spear does an aoe swipe or something.

[Spino43]

For theme, it makes sense.

In gameplay, it's the total opposite.

[Creatorofswamps]

2 hours ago, GimplyGoose said:

On a side note, have you heard the new riding music while you have beefalo skills on Wigfrid? It is very nice.

Could you send this music here?

[ParisSnicker]

klei designed this maybe because Wigfrid is Viking warrior? Apparently they didn’t consider which character needs a beefolo

[NoodlemanNed]

i think the fact that wigfrid benefits so little from battle beefs is a good reason for her to get the perks. Ideally the tree would open a new way for wigfrid to fight since normally the beefalo route is just silly since they turn off all her usual battle perks.

the main issue with this branch currently is that the battle perks are awful. I think klei should push beefalo more into a niche that other characters wouldnt really be able to use them for.

the current battle saddle gives 40% damage resistance to the beefalo already which is a nice start, its supposed to make your mount more durable but makes you sacrifice a lot of movement speed. the issue i have with this saddle is that intentionally tanking on a beefalo still kills them very quickly, and buffing the damage reduction seems pretty boring. I think this saddle could use a small buff like allowing the beefalo to heal when attacking. perhaps it could instead come with some knockback resistance that when paired with the commander helm, could make it impossible for enemies to knock wigfrid off of her steed.

the +10 planar damage is kind of nice for getting a beefalo up to 50 damage early on, but as you progress this buff becomes pretty pointless. I think this perk should just let the beefalo scale with planar weapons. this obviously doesnt do anything earlygame, but it helps give beefalo combat some sort of incentive despite how fragile they become against the new post rift bosses.

[finn from human]

59 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

Could you send this music here?

 

[Jakepeng99]

They should make the skills good.

[Lovens]

What if instead of giving Wigfrid the Beefalo skills this branch would be turned into the actual steed mount branch? Make it a unique new mount they actually looks like a horse or pegasus. Make the first skill unlock the ability for Wigfrid to track a new special type of hunt, with its own trail mark that looks like a hoof print. It will spawn a new creature which is going to be her unique mount/follower and cannot be killed by other characters. One Wigfrid can only track one at a time and only when her current steed is not alive. Or maybe she crafts a special bell and it spawns the steed, like Wendy can craft the flower to access Abigail who is already there.

Only Wigfrid will be able to ride the new mount and interact with it. It could then get damage comparable to Wigfrid on foot without making beefalo OP for other characters. It could get unique stats (including health) and new interesting skins matching Wigfrid's skins. It could look noble instead of a goofy cow everybody else rides. There could be tweaks on the taming process. Maybe the taming goes faster and it doesn't go in heat like beefalo do, and maybe it doesn't lose the domestication after it's tamed. Or maybe there is no taming at all but training instead. Maybe that special mount could allow Wigfrid to fly or jump over small ocean gaps between land. Maybe the mount could get its own version of the dash attack or special synergy with the new gear. 

Why a noble valkyrie has to stick with the same generic stinky cow that everybody else been riding for years?  

[kroban]

As a Walter main I agree. I think its unnecessary for a character that thrives on fighting without a mount and has like 7 crafts of armors and weapons now. The only reason a Wigfrid gets a Beefalo is to move faster.

And if theres was a character that could have put to much better use some "rider perks" it was Walter, with Woby.

Now that Wigfrid has it I dont think Walter is going to get the same treatment for Woby because people would see 2 characters with mount specs as redundant, probably. Which means it could be the case Walter wont get for example, a "fighter Woby" playstyle or a special saddle craft that only Woby can use.

And now I can only expect him having all slingshot perks and some basic  "big Woby form lasts longer" perks, which would be lame considering Walter is the character that benefits the most from having a mount, and starts with one, but still has to get a Beefalo to patch up his underpowered Woby

[Wonz]

Why is wolfgang coaching? He's circus guy, why not circus strongman related feats?

[AngelicBug]

Cause she is a Valkyrie 

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, kroban said:

As a Walter main I agree. I think its unnecessary for a character that thrives* on fighting without a mount and now literally has like 7 crafts of armors and weapons. The only reason a Wigfrid gets a mount is to move faster.

And if theres was a character that could have put to much more better use some "rider perks" it was Walter.

Now that Wigfrid has it I dont think Walter is going to get the same treatment for Woby because people would see it as redundant, probably. Which means Walter probably wont get for example, some "fighter Woby" playstyle or a special saddle craft.

And now I can only expect him having pure slingshot perks and some basic  "big form last longer" Woby's perks, which would be lame considering Walter is the character that benefits the most from having a mount.

As a Walter main, walter is the last character that needs beefalo skills... the entire reason to play Walter is to AVOID the taming process but still having a mount thats easily accessible.

Walters downsides gets countered by his own gear so taming a beefalo for walter is the same as taming an ornery for wolfgang. That is to say a complete waste of time.

[Cruvimaster]

In place of the current tree there should be a damage multiplication.  1.30 > 1.40 > 1.50.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

As a Walter main, walter is the last character that needs beefalo skills... the entire reason to play Walter is to AVOID the taming process but still having a mount thats easily accessible.

Walters downsides gets countered by his own gear so taming a beefalo for walter is the same as taming an ornery for wolfgang. That is to say a complete waste of time

Part of his intention is to avoid the need to use a beefalo but it's a failed attempt however as there's no real value in using Woby over a beefalo long term the only reasons a player uses Woby over a beefalo is because they're playing short term or they really don't like taming beefalos as he has the most to gain from riding a beefalo. Saying it doesn't make sense for Walter to use a mount because he starts with one is like saying it doesn't make sense for Wormwood to use other armors than the bramble husk or brightshade armor because he has perks for them.

If your goal is safety a beefalo protects your hp and sanity. If your goal is combat and saving time well not needing to dismount to make quick work of enemies with a infinite durability weapon is also what a beefalo offers. If your goal is cost effectiveness a few grass or twigs is cheaper than giving Woby 1 monster meat a day to maintain top speed. Walter's gear doesn't counter his downsides they try to mitigate them there's a big difference.

[Gashzer]

17 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Part of his intention is to avoid the need to use a beefalo but it's a failed attempt however as there's no real value in using Woby over a beefalo long term the only reasons a player uses Woby over a beefalo is because they're playing short term or they really don't like taming beefalos as he has the most to gain from riding a beefalo. Saying it doesn't make sense for Walter to use a mount because he starts with one is like saying it doesn't make sense for Wormwood to use other armors than the bramble husk or brightshade armor because he has perks for them.

If your goal is safety a beefalo protects your hp and sanity. If your goal is combat and saving time well not needing to dismount to make quick work of enemies with a infinite durability weapon is also what a beefalo offers. If your goal is cost effectiveness a few grass or twigs is cheaper than giving Woby 1 monster meat a day to maintain top speed. Walter's gear doesn't counter his downsides they try to mitigate them there's a big difference.

You are right 100%! When klei buffed beefalos with the introduction of the beefalo bell they failed to buff Big woby properly to match up in the late game. This is what caused this mass shift over to using beefalos for Walter players which completely breaks the identity of the character which is Walter and Woby as a team.

But his skill tree is the chance to fix this, to give Big woby priority over a beefalo for Walter. Everyone wants to make beefalos fit with Walter when there is zero lore reason to do so just because it fits their current playstyle (Walters hat and wobys inventory space encourages the use of body armour to solve his sanity/hp problem plus tent to heal both whenever you want, you really dont need a beefalo currently, yes he still has the downside but plenty of ways to counter them which is more fun than straight up unnecessarily removing it)

Instead we should be suggesting ideas to fix the original problem. Not saying "aww wigfrid doesnt need beefalo skills give it to a character that the idea of a combat beefalo doesnt even match lorewise with..." Wigfrid is the ONLY character that a combat mount fits thematically with. Lets focus on making it work for her instead of suggesting things that just wont happen at all.

[Mysterious box]

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You are right 100%! When klei buffed beefalos with the introduction of the beefalo bell they failed to buff Big woby properly to match up in the late game. This is what caused this mass shift over to using beefalos for Walter players which completely breaks the identity of the character which is Walter and Woby as a team.

Honestly I completely agree here and even said at the time despite being told otherwise that the beefalo bell directly hurt Woby's viability in various ways in fact before it's introduction one of the pros people gave Woby was that she was the only way to use a mount in the caves. I've also said many times in the past making beefalos better will always make Woby worse Klei sort of avoided it this time by locking the beefalo improvements behind a specific character but doing things people are requesting like giving your beefalo revives will only further cement that Woby is pointless as a comparable mount.

 

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

when there is zero lore reason

To be fair there's not a lore reason for Walter to only use Woby as a mount either and he seems to imply she's fine with it.

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

But his skill tree is the chance to fix this, to give Big woby priority over a beefalo for Walter. Everyone wants to make beefalos fit with Walter when there is zero lore reason to do so just because it fits their current playstyle (Walters hat and wobys inventory space encourages the use of body armour to solve his sanity/hp problem plus tent to heal both whenever you want you really dont need a beefalo currently yes he still has the downside but plenty of ways to counter them which is more fun that straight up unnecessarily removing it)

The problem is I can't even think of a good idea to encourage Woby over a beefalo even with the limitless potential of a skill tree and that's saying something there hasn't even been a suggestion that could help in that regard. Also while Woby's hp system and the pinetree pioneer hat encourages Walter to use body armor his slingshot encourages you to use a backpack considering how much space it eats up and most people tend to go to Walter for that slingshot.

To be clear there are plenty of perks that I can think of to give Woby to make her better but there's none I can think of that would make her competitive with a beefalo even more so since beefalos have steadily been patching holes in areas where Woby once held the advantage.

Another thing to keep in mind is Woby can't just come out as good as a beefalo she'd need to come out better in the mount category because even if by some miracle you could match a beefalo the question becomes why should I waste all these skill points on Woby to make her equal when I could instead spend them on areas that will push Walter forward as a character?

It's for this reason I feel it'd probably be better for the Woby side of the tree to mainly focus on skills improving Woby's functionality regardless of if you choose to use her as a mount or not which is why I proposed things like digging and fetching items.

[NoKrampusSack]

13 hours ago, -Variant said:

 

I think it might be more for theming than genuine need for it. I feel like Wig is the last person to benefit from it. But of all the characters I can't think of any others that fit the bill that well, either. MAYBE Walter. Maybe.

no he wouldnt
itd just make woby worse
we seriously dont need that 

[Catuna_]

7 hours ago, kroban said:

And if theres was a character that could have put to much better use some "rider perks" it was Walter.

Now that Wigfrid has it I dont think Walter is going to get the same treatment for Woby because people would see it as redundant, probably. Which means it could be the case Walter wont get for example, a "fighter Woby" playstyle or a special saddle craft.

And now I can only expect him having all slingshot perks and some basic  "big Woby form lasts longer" perks, which would be lame considering Walter is the character that benefits the most from having a mount.

Walter's relationship with beefalos more-so exists because his downsides are clunky to play with and beefalo make it a lot more manageable, but ignoring the issue in the first place and making him more incentivized to get a beefalo is just not the play. 

Wigfrid getting a rider tree doesn't matter to Walter, Woby should and probably will still get buffs to let her compete. An idea they could go through is to give Walter ways to upgrade her so that she eventually overlaps in value with rider beefalo, while lowering her upkeep cost to keep her speed high. Just like Bernie was powercrept by Abigail and Shadow duelists as a follower and was given a ton of buffs to let him compete, I am sure Woby will get the same treatment. 

I have hope for the Walter skill tree seeing how they knocked it out of the park with most of the previous skill trees, but I hope people stop suggesting beefalo perks for Walter, give Woby a chance to actually become a good perk again! She hasn't been since Year of the beefalo.

 

[Mysterious box]

42 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I have hope for the Walter skill tree seeing how they knocked it out of the park with most of the previous skill trees, but I hope people stop suggesting beefalo perks for Walter, give Woby a chance to actually become a good perk again! She hasn't been since Year of the beefalo.

Woby isn't bad and she can be better but she'll never be the go to mount for Walter without disregarding her lore which is where the desire for beef perks come from.

[Catuna_]

38 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Woby isn't bad and she can be better but she'll never be the go to mount for Walter without disregarding her lore which is where the desire for beef perks come from.

She's not bad in a vacuum but as soon as beefalo are available she's just straight up worse in every department that matters... And it doesn't have to be that way, she can be buffed just like Bernie was buffed to fall in line with the other characters' followers.

[lenship2]

i think it would be more fitting if wigfrid could have a skill that unlocks the ability to use all weapons while mounted on a beefalo (having an empty hand slot would still use the beefalo attack, but otherwise this would allow her to maintain her damage multipliers)

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

She's not bad in a vacuum but as soon as beefalo are available she's just straight up worse in every department that matters... And it doesn't have to be that way, she can be buffed just like Bernie was buffed to fall in line with the other characters' followers.

I know she's bad at being a mount but her storage still remains useful. I've pitched in the past that what her skill tree should focus on is things you can do when she's not a mount like digging or fetching items as even if she's made into a good mount by design she'll never replace the reason Walter would prefer a beefalo.