Extremely disappointed

[Swiyss]

Klei need to change the way insight is obtained, and need to give us more clear advantages and disadvantages by choosing paths. I know examples of other games skill sets and I think DST current skillset is vey unfinished.

Maybe for the lack of ideas, maybe for the lack of progression. And maybe for both.

3 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Actually, we don't talk about this at all.

WX-78 already has a skill tree. Has had one way before Wilson. And it's actually well done:

-World exclusive, you have to work for it each time

-Requires activation (charges, data- so you need Jimmy)

-Scales with game progression already- the more powerful circuits require difficult to get items, or for you to go out of your way to get them (changing your early game choices!)

-Looks nice and no annoying pop ups

-Adjustable without having to use the portal

-Deactivates when not maintained

Honestly. Klei CAN do the thing with skill trees correctly. They already did it once- and now they're doing it again but worse.

 

Wx78 is a good example of a great skillset type of content added to the game. It nerfed him, sure, but it was a very much needed nerf, now the progression actually feels rewarding and coherent

As for skillsets we have yet to see that. They essentially did willow dirty by giving us everything we asked for without even thinking about it which is kinda sad.

On 11/30/2023 at 7:04 PM, Zima Blue said:

But you can opt to not use the skill trees. If you don't like them, you can just not use them and it won't affect the game balance. 

That is just bad. To say I shouldn't fundamentally use something in the games own code just because the code itself is detrimental for the game's health, balance, and strategic encounters.

That's like saying the problem is not me who punched someone, but that the person who got punched looked to punchable and I couldn't resist.

On 11/30/2023 at 7:10 PM, Capybara007 said:

Game is progressing in another way, i say let it be

Sure, let it be, but if we're letting it be in a bad way, that doesn't mean there is no room for feedback.

[Swiyss]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:22 PM, giovcavalc said:

Most players won't casually find it and solve it by themselves

I got your point here. But the problem with the current system is that it is making skill trees too accessible based on the rewards they give you.

It is meant for "experienced" players to have a nice and better experience when they play the game next time, and won't bother the disadvantages every character have to be constantly slowing you down.

Their problem however is that insight is locked behind playing the game for long days. Which shouldn't be the case in my opinion. The game should feel more like I'm actually needing to do things inside the game to unlock them, like wigfrid havind to play a beefalo horn to unlock her skill perk. And THAT is what klei should make us actually do to gain insight or unlock path, instead of just.. surviving. Which doesn't currently makes sense to me.

Sure we have to kill 2 late game bosses for some perks, but others won't require you doing anything at all, and they give you massive advantages that once you unlock, it's over, you will never lose them again. That's a veeery bad design I think.

On 11/30/2023 at 8:22 PM, giovcavalc said:

For a new player specially its much more transparent to get a skill for the time they spent surviving

A new player should not unlock those abilties THAT easily. A player should not be able to be presented with downsides, for 1 play through to make him never care about those ever again. Skillsets should be personalised in the main menu, and have a better slow and steady grind to them, the rewards should feel coherent with how hard I'm working to get them.

It should only be a pop up when you actually do something in game. We can't have this process of only surviving and gaining things that will make the character's disadvantages negated just by existing. I didn't worked for it, I didn't focus on getting them. I'm just getting points for free. It feels out of place.

I think making it so you gain the ability itself by doing things related to how strong the ability is in game per world would 100% fix 99% of insight problems. The current system is just bad because it gives free insight for newbies to cancel their character's issues and motivating them to survive for longer instead of chasing objectives. They'll still stand at base eating berries and meatballs and only go out of their way to cheat into a boss ONCE per accoubt, and that's it.

Klei should DEFINITELY take a second look at insight, and I know for suuuuure most people will agree with these changes. Cause my group of friends already talked about how this would give new players tasks to do and reward them for it.

[_zwb]

 

2 hours ago, Swiyss said:

But the "chores" being once a challenge give you a sense of accomplishment. How did you not get that still?

I get that, but, you essentially left survival mode once all challenges have become chores and you said:

19 hours ago, Swiyss said:

just mean that everything in life is bland once creative mode is enabled 

we as humans seek challenge

that's why there needs to be a survival mode, and a creative mode, and we already have that, but klei is balancing the game with no downsides in the survival section. Don't like it? Disable it. that is it.

[Swiyss]

20 minutes ago, _zwb said:

 

I get that, but, you essentially left survival mode once all challenges have become chores and you said:

what i'm trying to say is that humans seek challenging conditions. And having to got out of your way to deal with frog rains because it interfered with your day to day task is some sort of a challenge, cause it will never be exactly the same situation. More and more you'll get used to it, that's why new content is put out. So we can learn how to deal with it with different characters with different skillsets and different world gens etc..

[cybers2001]

16 hours ago, Swiyss said:

It made the most sense to most people, but then the last perks weren't THAT accessible to some characters, but made others like woodie REALLY compensated by having it, so because of their inconsistency, they had to change the way the whole system worked instead of changing the perks instead, because they didn't have time. All of this would be fixed in a 6 month update instead of just 1 month, they're an Indie company, they're humans also. So they need to start respecting themselves and know that everything is not possible to obtain under certain clocks.

In the case of Woodie, it makes the immunity to full moons something you earn through defeating CC in each world. If the curse is something Klei wanted to actively remove from the game, then they should have done so without the skill tree, because now only new players that aren't as skilled at the game are the ones who have to deal with curses.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

In the case of Woodie, it makes the immunity to full moons something you earn through defeating CC in each world. If the curse is something Klei wanted to actively remove from the game, then they should have done so without the skill tree, because now only new players that aren't as skilled at the game are the ones who have to deal with curses.

Wait, Woodie can only benefit from not transforming every full moon once he kills CC per world? Not per account?

[cybers2001]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Wait, Woodie can only benefit from not transforming every full moon once he kills CC per world? Not per account?

No, I'm saying it currently is per account, but, along with other affinity perks, should be per world.

[_zwb]

4 hours ago, Swiyss said:

More and more you'll get used to it, that's why new content is put out. So we can learn how to deal with it with different characters with different skillsets and different world gens etc..

At one point there will be no new content, when DST is officially done, finished or even worse, abandoned. You can't expect infinite challenges and eventually the survival challenge will go away no matter how many "late game challenges" get added. Then we go back to creative mode, just like now.

[Swiyss]

8 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

No, I'm saying it currently is per account, but, along with other affinity perks, should be per world.

I agree completely, and some others should even be like:

Stinger slinger "avenge around 10 bees to unlock this perk" as Walter

make so beeswax could be applied to walters slingshot, making it shoot faster.

We need more things like this, instead of SURVIVE 10 days, like what does that even accomplish.

3 minutes ago, _zwb said:

At one point there will be no new content, when DST is officially done, finished or even worse, abandoned. You can't expect infinite challenges and eventually the survival challenge will go away no matter how many "late game challenges" get added. Then we go back to creative mode, just like now.

Then what they need to do is give us more creative ways to build in the world around us, infinite sandbox linking between worlds, or jumping to the next world with some things in your inventory like original DS. Something to make us able to express more creativity, anything infinite.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, _zwb said:

At one point there will be no new content, when DST is officially done, finished or even worse, abandoned. You can't expect infinite challenges and eventually the survival challenge will go away no matter how many "late game challenges" get added. Then we go back to creative mode, just like now.

That’s only because of how heavily encouraged the Sandbox aspects of DST are.. if you can name any other RogueLite/like, which believe it or not DST is actually still advertised & sold under even if it’s one of the least fitting games for the genre category- Name any other RogueLite/Like that lets you fully conquer the game world and just chill in creative mode, then maybe I’ll be willing to listen to what your saying here.

Because from my point of view: DST only ever becomes a creative Sandbox because it’s not structured like a traditional Rogue title- Generally speaking: Roguetitles are meant to provide near infinity amounts of replayability, and at no point EVER (at least in none of the ones I’ve ever played..) do they just flip over into full creative sandbox mode.

[_zwb]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

RogueLite/like, which believe it or not DST is actually still advertised & sold under even if it’s one of the least fitting games for the genre category

DST is not a rogue like, it's only advertised like that to suck your wallet dry, why would you treat it like some unchallengeable truth?

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Name any other RogueLite/Like that lets you fully conquer the game world and just chill in creative mode

There's none, because rogue like games end the moment you beat the game. You don't get to wander around once you've beaten Slay the Spire, the game just ends and you would start a new one. Don't Starve however has no end, the only end is your death, you've reached immortality, so the only thing left is "chill in creative mode".

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

DST only ever becomes a creative Sandbox because it’s not structured like a traditional Rogue title

And because it's not a rogue like in the first place.

[mykenception]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

That’s only because of how heavily encouraged the Sandbox aspects of DST are.. if you can name any other RogueLite/like, which believe it or not DST is actually still advertised & sold under even if it’s one of the least fitting games for the genre category

odd, I'm trying to search for tags and descriptions of "DST" in steam and xbox if DST is advertised as RogueLite/like. I can't find it.

I can very much understand that DS: Adventure mode focuses on roguelite elements with some sandbox aspects, I can't really say for certain for DST

Though most roguelite games have some form of progression via unlocks, like new items or characters to take with you on the next run, I guess you can make it a stretch and fit skilltrees in that criteria, lmao

if you have sources that do say otherwise, please let me know 

 

Huh, even Klei mentions that playing by yourself in DST is a valid way to play, and you don't have to strictly play multiplayer because it's a multiplayer game

[BezKa]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:22 PM, BezKa said:

At least the animation about Wigfrid and Willow together would be absolutely lovely to see, I hope they get to wreak absolute havoc.

bruh

[IAmAFurrz]

On 12/1/2023 at 4:38 AM, BezKa said:

 Skill trees are really bad and detrimental to the game, and people accepting them with open arms is just sad to watch.

Truly the opinion ever

[Yuuko]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:28 PM, Mike23Ua said:

That’s only because of how heavily encouraged the Sandbox aspects of DST are.. if you can name any other RogueLite/like, which believe it or not DST is actually still advertised & sold under even if it’s one of the least fitting games for the genre category- Name any other RogueLite/Like that lets you fully conquer the game world and just chill in creative mode, then maybe I’ll be willing to listen to what your saying here.

Because from my point of view: DST only ever becomes a creative Sandbox because it’s not structured like a traditional Rogue title- Generally speaking: Roguetitles are meant to provide near infinity amounts of replayability, and at no point EVER (at least in none of the ones I’ve ever played..) do they just flip over into full creative sandbox mode.

Roguelike is a VERY broad subject.  DST is certainly a roguelike, and nothing of its sandbox nature changes that.

Things that make a game roguelike:

Procedurally generated worlds making them "new" each time - note that they usually have strong patterns that can still be predicted.  This is mostly to shake up the experience, not to create a world of chaos.

A death cycle - some method of death ending the game.  Multiplayer roguelikes are very similar to DST in having revival become a mechanic.  Ultimately if you party wipe and can't revive the world will reset.

A focus on player skill over grind like an MMO.  Many have meta progression like the new skill trees that give you some growth and customization world over world, but rarely do these scale a character up significantly.  Usually they help with things like cutting down grind, and opening up new options a player can use.

DST checks those boxes so I'd say it is a rogue like.

Nothing about being a roguelike means it can't be a sandbox too.  The main difference there is whether the game "ends" when you defeat the end boss or not.  Games like Rogue Legacy force-end when you beat the end boss.  I've played other ones that didn't.  MAngband was a multiplayer roguelike which kept the world going.  I think this is a natural decision in game design when you make the game muliplayer.  One person clearing the end boss shouldn't stifle everyone else's experience.  Also ppl have houses and economy, the point isn't to shut the world down.  The dungeon re-rolls and we keep playing.

All it takes to turn a rogue like into a sandbox is just that - don't reroll the world instantly when its the big bad goes down.  You leave the lights on and let ppl keep playing.  imo this is natural for a roguelike without meta progression, or like DST's skill trees where you don't NEED to die and reset the world to access it.  When you take out the need for death and regen it's pretty natural to just be a sandbox.

[arubaro]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:28 PM, Mike23Ua said:

That’s only because of how heavily encouraged the Sandbox aspects of DST are.. if you can name any other RogueLite/like, which believe it or not DST is actually still advertised & sold under even if it’s one of the least fitting games for the genre category- Name any other RogueLite/Like that lets you fully conquer the game world and just chill in creative mode, then maybe I’ll be willing to listen to what your saying here.

Because from my point of view: DST only ever becomes a creative Sandbox because it’s not structured like a traditional Rogue title- Generally speaking: Roguetitles are meant to provide near infinity amounts of replayability, and at no point EVER (at least in none of the ones I’ve ever played..) do they just flip over into full creative sandbox mode.

you talk like you are bored of being in lategame "creative mode"... you experience 20%of the content and complain because experience players keep playing in the same world, repeating challenges and building with the loot of those challenges while you play 4 surface seasons, make some decorations (hypocrisy in your part complaining about megabasers when you also build for the sake of building) and ignore everything else that the game offers

i think you are just complaining for the sake of chatting in a forum or because you are forcing yourself into playing something you dont like. You dont like survival games because your complains can be applied to most games in the category and any of those has rogelike feature but a lot of sandbox base building ones

basically, nonsense after nonsense 

[Mike23Ua]

29 minutes ago, arubaro said:

you talk like you are bored of being in lategame "creative mode"... you experience 20%of the content and complain because experience players keep playing in the same world, repeating challenges and building with the loot of those challenges while you play 4 surface seasons, make some decorations (hypocrisy in your part complaining about megabasers when you also build for the sake of building) and ignore everything else that the game offers

i think you are just complaining for the sake of chatting in a forum or because you are forcing yourself into playing something you dont like. You dont like survival games because your complains can be applied to most games in the category and any of those has rogelike feature but a lot of sandbox base building ones

basically, nonsense after nonsense 

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe I’m here trying to inspire some of the developers at Klei or even other forum members outside of Klei to make a DS/DST inspired RogueLike game?

In fact, if Klei were to actually release a new DS game and have that be exclusively a RogueLike, I would be one of the first people in line to buy it.

Now do me a teeny tiny favor, and tell me the truth on this one thing:

Before playing Reign of Giants, before playing Shipwrecked, Before playing Hamlet, did you 100% complete all the content of the previous experiences or did you more likely… just see new DLC, Buy & Play new DLC without having done literally everything else prior to that?

Cause ima be real here- I don’t think people do that, and I see me activating new content in DST earlier than intended as being no different from toggling on a DLC.

Bottom line is if Klei DIDNT want me to do it, they would’ve never even added it as an option.

 

 

[Uedo]

36 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe I’m here trying to inspire some of the developers at Klei or even other forum members outside of Klei to make a DS/DST inspired RogueLike game?

In fact, if Klei were to actually release a new DS game and have that be exclusively a RogueLike, I would be one of the first people in line to buy it.

Now do me a teeny tiny favor, and tell me the truth on this one thing:

Before playing Reign of Giants, before playing Shipwrecked, Before playing Hamlet, did you 100% complete all the content of the previous experiences or did you more likely… just see new DLC, Buy & Play new DLC without having done literally everything else prior to that?

Cause ima be real here- I don’t think people do that, and I see me activating new content in DST earlier than intended as being no different from toggling on a DLC.

Bottom line is if Klei DIDNT want me to do it, they would’ve never even added it as an option.

 

 

Pop it in the relevant forum then bud! Maybe a suggestion thread? ^^

[BezKa]

5 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

Truly the opinion ever

This is the most response

[dzzydzzy]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:22 PM, BezKa said:

At least the animation about Wigfrid and Willow together would be absolutely lovely to see, I hope they get to wreak absolute havoc.

So sorry, bud

[Capybara007]

Dst is not a roguelike as much as you like to call it

[nimzowitsch10]

At the end of the day the devs are gonna carry on with whatever they got planned no matter how much we cry or say we're dissapointed.

They've been in a character rework phase for 4 years now, let that sink in.

[Pure Brilliance]

I think Wigfrid's skill tree is not bad, but Willow's is extremely disappointing. It's the worst.

[Yuuko]

On 12/27/2023 at 6:55 PM, lunararoma said:

I think Wigfrid's skill tree is not bad, but Willow's is extremely disappointing. It's the worst.

idk about "the worst," but she is basically B tier Wendy now.  It is an improvement for her and fun enough, but very niche where she can be useful.  Any boss that can't burn is basically a Wilson fight.

Burning Frenzy is a tough one to use b/c you have to sacrifice 1 hit to light them on fire and probably another hit to cast BF, so you need 8 hits just to break even before you even get to damage bonus territory...  Self emulation where she simply gives burning damage to things near her would be nice for being more universal.  Making it a toggle instead of a cast would be better for the longer fights.

Lunar flame is entirely too niche and unimpressive.  The move slow, awkward aiming, able to be cancelled, and high cost all make it bad already.  The CD is just the trash cherry on top.  I find I use this skill very VERY little.  When I do use it Abi would have done better.

I feel like Ember should stack to 80.  Max can get 200 casts of anything from 1 stack of nm fuel, which basically builds up just from playing the game.  Willow has to go farm ember and 40 only casts lunar flame 8 times.  It is not enough.

[grm9]

17 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Max can get 200 casts of anything from 1 stack of nm fuel, which basically builds up just from playing the game

nah, you need to get it intentionally since night sanity drain is compensated by maxwell's sanity gain and if you keep bone helm equipped you don't need to interact with even ruins nightmares, although it's still easy to farm it from splumonkeys or kill the bone helm nightmares