Extremely disappointed

[Trips]

7 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

They become tasks, and the better you are at getting over them, the better they feel.

Like having to clean my house all the time, at first I was very slow at it, now I know where everything is and how everything works around here, so that now I can feel way way way better, by doing the exact same "inconvenience" but faster and smarter.

You can bundle 160 lightbulbs.

Maybe I should just set my world to Winter's Feast or spawn in the bundling wrap BP, because I don't want to go through the slog that is the Bee Queen fight on every world I play.. that fight felt miserable even with Wolfgang. I guess I can play someone that absolutely trivializes the fight with enough prep time, but that seems pretty wasteful for just one fight.

4 minutes ago, BezKa said:

See, I just don't understand. The game has ALWAYS worked like this. You could choose the direction you play in the entire time. If you want to focus on magic you find bunnies, spiders etc. If you want to """personalize""" your gameplay, you can pick Wickerbottom to make this process faster. And you actually are doing things in the game to achieve it, not clicking a button after waiting for X minutes. All the things people are praising about skill trees are already in the game. So why do we need skill trees?

I'm starting to think people just don't want to admit it's only about the buffs.

Do people besides speedrunners actually not make the Shadow Manipulator and by process not use Dark Swords in their playthroughs? There are other more optional parts of the game, like Moon Quay where depending on your character, you don't really stand to gain much by looting the island. 

[Swiyss]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:17 PM, BezKa said:

I've talked about it a lot when the original 3 came out (not counting Wilson since that was his ""refresh"") but to summarize:

- Skill trees are a lazy and uncreative way to lock content. Compare how you unlock an insight point to buy yourself a blueprint essentially, to how you get blueprints in the archives. Which one feels more like you achieved something and your character evolved?

- Skill trees do not help new players learn the game, at least not nearly as much as simply playing already does. They're a crutch, and looking at Wigfrid's tree which is basically "stat bonus" and "unlock thing" idk if they are even meant to- which makes them clutter, and therefore even harder to learn the game. A paradox in a way, or I'm just stupid.

- Small and insignificant, they make you stop walking when inspecting a player and cover over half your screen. Get out of the way, I'm trying to use weather pain not look at my friends' poor choices!

- They're just another wave of reworks. We'll never reach any sort of balance in the game at this point.

- "Personalizing your gameplay" was already a thing. It was called choosing your character. And playing your way.

- Some of the skills are just straight up too powerful to have in the early game. If Klei wanted some sort of New Game+, original Don't Starve already had the perfect solution.

- Locking universally needed content behind characters is bad, and locking it behind individual skills is even worse. 

- Something about a giant screen where you assign stats to your character is just so impossibly Not DS like, it takes me out every time, I hate looking at it, I hate using it.

- Getting the skills is too easy, and at the same time bothersome enough people just use commands a lot of the time. I unlocked Wilson's insight the "proper" way and half the time I was just sitting by a fire (because beta testing, not keeping the world) and got rewarded for it. I love cookie clicker and sitting idly by when number go up, but in a game like DST?...

(Whatever other points I had made are archived by now and I'm too tired to see if I missed anything. I also don't want to go through this again, I'm just gonna get dragged by other forumites)

Overall, I'm just really sad we've lost the kind of game DST used to be, and instead going for cheap tricks like this.

Everything you said here, can be changed by Klei, and instead of asking them to optimize the choice they made, you're asking them to do what you want for the game. That's kinda unrealistic.

They can change everything you said was bad to make the skill trees better, and I bet you'll still hate on it.

[BezKa]

4 minutes ago, Trips said:

Do people besides speedrunners actually not make the Shadow Manipulator and by process not use Dark Swords in their playthroughs? There are other more optional parts of the game, like Moon Quay where depending on your character, you don't really stand to gain much by looting the island. 

If you play long enough, you're going to do a lot of the content in the game. It's mostly early game when you make the prioritizing decisions, and once you're in lategame, you can choose how to play in each aspect. I have a dragonfly killing setup with Winona's catapults in my world, because I prefer to fight her with it instead of using green gems to dupe scales. Is just a preference of mine. And if I feel like not using the setup I just don't activate it, gather armor and go fight.  I'd say those decisions hold as much weight as "hmmm do I want a shield or a defensive beefalo saddle" but one requires you to click some buttons and possibly make a moon idol and change into the same character so you can rearrange the points and the other you do in-game, in your world.

Early game is always about choices, always has been, and idk why pretending you need skill trees to make them is so popular right now.

[Swiyss]

8 minutes ago, BezKa said:

See, I just don't understand. The game has ALWAYS worked like this. You could choose the direction you play in the entire time. If you want to focus on magic you find bunnies, spiders etc. If you want to """personalize""" your gameplay, you can pick Wickerbottom to make this process faster. And you actually are doing things in the game to achieve it, not clicking a button after waiting for X minutes. All the things people are praising about skill trees are already in the game. So why do we need skill trees?

I'm starting to think people just don't want to admit it's only about the buffs.

When you play all characters and their reworks, and then choose one to play more, you're gonna have a favorite

But for those who experienced eveything the game has to offer, the skill trees are amazingly welcomed. I can have way more creative freedom now from this idea, and if the skill tree perks are bad in one way or another then we need to give feedback to make it better. 

So this idea is actually a good idea, it creates replayability the same way choosing different characters do.

[BezKa]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

They can change everything you said was bad to make the skill trees better, and I bet you'll still hate on it.

They can't, without removing the skill trees. I made a thread once about how various skills could be unlocked in-game, by performing actions in the world, making you earn them and create a sort of progression that you don't get with skill trees (bc once you unlock all the points, you have them. Some of them you shouldn't have so early in the game) and I got laughed at.

It's the skill trees, not the skills I have the most problems with.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Early game is always about choices, always has been, and idk why pretending you need skill trees to make them is so popular right now.

Because with skill trees you're supposed to have different styles of gameplay in the same character, essentially creating 2 or 3 characters in one insteas of releasing more.

Just now, BezKa said:

They can't, without removing the skill trees. I made a thread once about how various skills could be unlocked in-game, by performing actions in the world, making you earn them and create a sort of progression that you don't get with skill trees (bc once you unlock all the points, you have them. Some of them you shouldn't have so early in the game) and I got laughed at.

It's the skill trees, not the skills I have the most problems with.

Imo you're right here, they need to make a different progression scale instead of only surviving x amount of days.

[BezKa]

3 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

But for those who experienced eveything the game has to offer, the skill trees are amazingly welcomed.

That's me! And I don't welcome them. It seems to me like you really don't like being limited. And that's like, half of what characters are supposed to be. The most interesting part of each character should be their downside.

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Because with skill trees you're supposed to have different styles of gameplay in the same character, essentially creating 2 or 3 characters in one insteas of releasing more.

But why

Why do we need even more characters

If you're so bored of playing every character in every way you can think of, I think you're just a bit burnt out on the game. And I really don't see how making Weremoose just a lil bit stronger or the Weregoose just a lil bit faster is providing so much variety to your gameplay

[_zwb]

20 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

They become tasks, and the better you are at getting over them, the better they feel.

Like having to clean my house all the time, at first I was very slow at it, now I know where everything is and how everything works around here, so that now I can feel way way way better, by doing the exact same "inconvenience" but faster and smarter.

So basically they're no longer challenges and merely chores? That's the same as what we already have.

[Swiyss]

Just now, BezKa said:

That's me! And I don't welcome them. It seems to me like you really don't like being limited. And that's like, half of what characters are supposed to be. The most interesting part of each character should be their downside.

Their skill trees only have upsides, sure.

But don't you agree that having to choose between:

number 3 level of power with number 2 level of utility.

Vs

Number 2 level of power with number 3 level of utility.

Is in a way, having a downside. Because you're losing something by being granted another. So the skill tree itself has everything you're asking for. Maybe they're not perfect. But they do what it's supposed I think.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Because with skill trees you're supposed to have different styles of gameplay in the same character, essentially creating 2 or 3 characters in one insteas of releasing more.

To be fair since refreshes and skill trees characters have never felt more similar to the point what most characters do almost completely overlap and it's only going to get more similar as these skill trees go on. I mentioned months back that I was afraid of dst going down the route some older games did where every character plays the same but with a slight flavor change and dst is definitely pretty much at that point.

[Swiyss]

Just now, _zwb said:

So basically they're no longer challenges and merely chores? That's the same as what we already have.

But the "chores" being once a challenge give you a sense of accomplishment. How did you not get that still?

4 minutes ago, BezKa said:

That's me! And I don't welcome them. It seems to me like you really don't like being limited. And that's like, half of what characters are supposed to be. The most interesting part of each character should be their downside.

Yes I do like to be limited.

 

[BezKa]

Just now, Swiyss said:

Is in a way, having a downside. Because you're losing something by being granted another. So the skill tree itself has everything you're asking for. Maybe they're not perfect. But they do what it's supposed I think.

Not being as powerful as possible is not really a downside. It's kind of like saying Wolfgang not being able to use Alarming Clock is a downside.

[Swiyss]

Have limited choices is important for the game

[shaurun]

23 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I'd say I can't, with the insight popping up and everything (bless the mod, for real), and also as I mentioned before some important content is getting locked behind them. I waited for years to get juicy berry bushes on my 5500 days old map, and they're locked behind Wormwood's skill tree. I don't want to use it, but I'll be forced to (I haven't so far. I just put it off as long as I can because arghh..). It's not that big of a deal, I know, but it still makes the "just don't use it" argument (which is almost never valid. The existence of certain items and mechanics influences the entire game, even for players that choose not to use them) just a bit less sensible.

Oh that's a pity... I agree that could feel unfair. However you know, juicy berries is like a point of luck fro non-wormwoods.

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Have limited choices is important for the game

Then skill trees providing more choices is kinda bad?

(Sorry, I'm in a bit of silly mood today.)

I'd say that part was done by characters being different from each other. Walter's movable tent, or Wormwood's planting directly into dirt. Choices, choices.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

To be fair since refreshes and skill trees characters have never felt more similar to the point what most characters do almost completely overlap and it's only going to get more similar as these skill trees go on. I mentioned months back that I was afraid of dst going down the route some older games did where every character plays the same but with a slight flavor change and dst is definitely pretty much at that point.

Well, you're right.

And Klei should look into exactly this, and try to fix it.

My suggestion for willow is:

Summoner willow

Mage willow

If you want both, sure, but you're not gonna have the best perks from both sides.

That essentially creates 2 willows.

And they were the ones who presented us these ideas. So they should either actually implement them or ruin the game by making it too easy to obtain insight, too powerful to have a perk, and too easy to counter character specific traits that already exist just for the sake of it

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

For wilson this makes sense. And his skills have Qol for experienced players too. Being able to rush archives at any time by simply killing dfly is pretty dam good. His beard insulation stacks really well with a beefalo hat so winter feels like autumn 2.0. 

Wilsons skill tree is gettin a bad rep. It suits the characters vibe and thats a win in my book.

I get it, it has QOL, I rushed archives many times already right after ruins but that doesn't mean half of his tree isn't boring filler that is there because they didn't have ideas. 

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Not being as powerful as possible is not really a downside. It's kind of like saying Wolfgang not being able to use Alarming Clock is a downside.

Thats true, it is a downside, why would you think otherwise if that happening would make him better and stronger.

[Antynomity]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To be fair since refreshes and skill trees characters have never felt more similar to the point what most characters do almost completely overlap and it's only going to get more similar as these skill trees go on. I mentioned months back that I was afraid of dst going down the route some older games did where every character plays the same but with a slight flavor change and dst is definitely pretty much at that point.

That's exactly the reason I don't play as much anymore, no matter what character I'm not really even forced to live with a downside, at least before reworks most characters had some sort of a niche, even if it wasn't a good one, now everyone is getting perk soups.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Then skill trees providing more choices is kinda bad?

(Sorry, I'm in a bit of silly mood today.)

I'd say that part was done by characters being different from each other. Walter's movable tent, or Wormwood's planting directly into dirt. Choices, choices.

Dude, you don't get my point.

If you cane either look to base in the oasis or base in the caves, you're being presented 2 choices.

Every choice has it's upsides and downsides. You kinda can't do both(sure you can do 2 bases but that sounds impractical, I'm just making an analogy)

Even if you can certaintly choose for one of another. The downside of having one thing is being limited by choosing that already. You can be at 2 places and have the same resources at the same time. It feels kinda unhealthy. That's why wanda teleporting feels like cheating sometimes.

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Thats true, it is a downside, why would you think otherwise if that happening would make him better and stronger.

I'm saying it's not the same as Wolfgang having bigger sanity drain. If Wanda didn't exist, the "downside" wouldn't either.

 

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

Even if you can certaintly choose for one of another. The downside of having one thing is being limited by choosing that already. You can be at 2 places and have the same resources at the same time. It feels kinda unhealthy. That's why wanda teleporting feels like cheating sometimes.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think it's a real downside. Wormwood's inability to heal with food doesn't really compare with Wigfrid not being able to read Wicker's books.

 

[Swiyss]

5 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I'm saying it's not the same as Wolfgang having bigger sanity drain. If Wanda didn't exist, the "downside" wouldn't either.

 

I do also agree that more specific downsides need to be presented for the game to feel good.

And I do agree that some of the skill trees invalidate character's disadvantages.

But you have to agree that having to choose between not having a powerful thing in your game IS a downside.

If I decide for whatever reason I won't craft dark swords in my gameplays, then I will clearly be giving myself a downside.

What is there not to get?

If you are choosing between utility over damage in your playthroughs, then you're making a choice that will give you upsides and downsides. That's logical

 

[BezKa]

Just now, Swiyss said:

But you have to agree that having to choose between not having a powerful thing in your game IS a downside.

Okay, sorry, I realized I never said it- I do agree with you. You are correct on that. I just don't think it's significant enough, having to choose between two good things is not really that impactful. But it is there.

[Swiyss]

Choosing a character is already giving you downsides and upsides

 The problem with skill trees invalidating the characters downsides is because the intention was to make an experienced player NOT have to ALWAYS have these disadvantages. It is indeed making the characters downsides useless. But only if you're "experienced".

See how the idea is great, but he implementation of it COULD have been optimized for a better and coherent way to reward good players?

5 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Okay, sorry, I realized I never said it- I do agree with you. You are correct on that. I just don't think it's significant enough, having to choose between two good things is not really that impactful. But it is there.

Then we got to the root of the problem.

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

See how the idea is great, but he implementation of it COULD have been optimized for a better and coherent way to reward good players?

Actually, we don't talk about this at all.

WX-78 already has a skill tree. Has had one way before Wilson. And it's actually well done:

-World exclusive, you have to work for it each time

-Requires activation (charges, data- so you need Jimmy)

-Scales with game progression already- the more powerful circuits require difficult to get items, or for you to go out of your way to get them (changing your early game choices!)

-Looks nice and no annoying pop ups

-Adjustable without having to use the portal

-Deactivates when not maintained

Honestly. Klei CAN do the thing with skill trees correctly. They already did it once- and now they're doing it again but worse.