With late game becoming easier and easier, here are some ideas from uncompromising mode to make the late game harder

[O_Atoba_Azul]

Absolutely NOT.

[00petar00]

5 hours ago, chirsg said:

I'm so tempted to start uncompromising mode just so I can cheese the everloving hell out of it.

Base destruction leads to falling back on very rudimentary base designs.

 

Do any of you know how easy it is to live off monster meat and monster meat alone?

That is so true, in the early days of DST I played on a popular PVP server and basically survived a full year in one sitting without a base, I only built science structures when I needed to craft items.

I am unsure on how destructive uncompromising mode mod is as I have not played it but even without destruction all the weather events would make me not enjoy it.

[TheTrueStickman]

22 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

"Uncompromising Mode" at its core is anti elaborate base-building (main dev even stated this recently, that base-builders aren't their target audience). The mod is heavily Survival-inclined. All above described mechanics would savage anything camp-related that goes beyond 2-3 research stations "thrown" randomly around a Firepit and Furnace as inkling for "base". If anything, it caters to the Semi-/Nomad Survivalist. Such destruction limits by a large margin any other play-style, not to mention it invalidates "mega-base" completely. For bulk player-base even if considering post-Rifts progress-only such an extreme approach is not desirable. A middle ground is needed, to have the most amount of play-style options. Or have separation, akin Wilderness vs Endless. If KLei ever decides on such a route, perhaps Wilderness would be its medium. Maybe.

That's very much overexaggerating on how destructive these mechanics are, Antlion alone is more destructive than all of these combined.

Tornados don't break or harm structures in any capacity, at most they're a threat to your plants but even then they'll be picked, not dug.

Heatwaves similarly only pose a threat to you and your plants, as they do not set structures on fire.

Snowstorms just block access from your structures and only require cleaning up the area after they pass.

Uncompromising mode doesn't catter to base builders, sure, but it's not like it's actively hostile to them either.

[MondayNight]

19 hours ago, TheTrueStickman said:

That's very much overexaggerating on how destructive these mechanics are, Antlion alone is more destructive than all of these combined.

Tornados don't break or harm structures in any capacity, at most they're a threat to your plants but even then they'll be picked, not dug.

Heatwaves similarly only pose a threat to you and your plants, as they do not set structures on fire.

Snowstorms just block access from your structures and only require cleaning up the area after they pass.

Uncompromising mode doesn't catter to base builders, sure, but it's not like it's actively hostile to them either.

Exaggeration? Maybe. Over? Not by a margin.

Because the matter's simple: DST is about cumulative threats. With all best planning out there, and especially in multiplayer context, there will be plenty cases when you're proverbially "caught with your pants down". It's something that happens now, with current level of Constant's dangers no matter what certain advanced experienced players write au contraire - more-so if they're playing alone all time (as past polls showed about recurrent posters on these forums). Between Tornados, Mother Geese, Rats & Pack Rats (even if your Camp is kept clean, World naturally accumulates Rot over time, especially around players' periodic routes - so unless you actively clean environment, Rats will spawn), various mix of Hound Waves, and more your camp most likely will get trashed. And this is about regular, *run-of-the-mill* camps, not "mega-bases". While such new hard settings are ok for the namesake mod catering to hardcore Survivalists and perhaps a Wilderness setting, for Default DST seems way too much hassle taking UM as "to be akin" template. Again, if Semi-/Nomad Survivalist is your play-style, sure, your purpose is hardcore survival. Btw, on topic of "mega-basers":

 

On 10/15/2023 at 5:49 AM, Mysterious box said:

Are you speaking from experience or are you just assuming that I can't say I've played super long term on a uncompromising server but what he's described so far doesn't seem to be too destructive unless there's something I'm missing in fact assuming heat waves replace wildfires it seems less destructive? I'm not trying to antagonize I'm legitimately asking.

A friend of mine was pretty into UM around 2 months ago (experienced advanced player, Semi-Nomad Play-style): had both words of praise and critique to it (the mod). But knowing my style too (Semi-Nomad as well, but making "shrines" and fancily decorated mini-camps) told me, after much discussions, I would probably dislike the mod quite so. And, although very outdated, correlates with my global impression with said mod after testing it some years ago. Then there's the happening with (DST) Don't Fight community some time ago and their Endless server when some people enthusiastically proposed UM for their main Endless pub - normally they play cooperatively for 2-4k in-game days between regens, most players there being advanced experienced, and always "mega-base" communally in various biomes for different challenges, sometimes testing mods. With default UM on, their world progressed to... kinda mid-to-end 1st Autumn, when all players quit progressively till server was *dead* and no one would rejoin. I believe that was the only case, with that respective UM gen, when world was prematurely regenerated, without the mod. @Kova_ probably could give you more details (sorry, K that am "summoning" you here - feel free to ignore my comment if not in mood to interact with it and topic at hand). Hence that's the extend UM is viewed by "normies" not into Survivalist play-style from my experience. Once more: game, be it vanilla or with UM, resumes itself to hectic cumulative threats - a point to always be kept in mind when discussing balance. Each danger on its own may seem trivialized with enough experience/practice. Yet a multitude of things can and will happen to warrant a more nuanced view from both Survivalist and decorative Base-builder perspectives - a compromise between the 2. That or.. separate settings (pointed Wilderness mode).

[TheTrueStickman]

1 minute ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

World naturally accumulates Rot over time, especially around players' periodic routes - so unless you actively clean environment, Rats will spawn

And here is where discussions like these begin to not really work anymore, as we aren't speaking on equal ground here, because that's not how rats work, they only check in an area close to your base, not on the entire map, meaning that it is possible to keep a clean base and never see them, but you don't seem to know that that's how they work, as well as i assume many other mechanics of the mod, which can then make discussions around it tricky when one party is lacking context.

Im not really gonna get into the argument of how these would work or interact with the wider community if implemented into vanilla cause i don't really agree with the concept of doing that, just, you're overselling the so called "destruction" that these threats pose.

[MondayNight]

59 minutes ago, TheTrueStickman said:

And here is where discussions like these begin to not really work anymore, as we aren't speaking on equal ground here, because that's not how rats work, they only check in an area close to your base, not on the entire map, meaning that it is possible to keep a clean base and never see them, but you don't seem to know that that's how they work, as well as i assume many other mechanics of the mod, which can then make discussions around it tricky when one party is lacking context.

Im not really gonna get into the argument of how these would work or interact with the wider community if implemented into vanilla cause i don't really agree with the concept of doing that, just, you're overselling the so called "destruction" that these threats pose.

Define what a "base" is.

In Endless pubs (and I assume on personal servers too) people make on most circulated routes mini-camps (Firepit, Crockpot, Fridge, Lighting Rod, Science Machine - for opening gifts, Tent, a Scaled Chest with necessities) plus Lighting Rods for protecting environment and Giants' Semi-auto Farms (Winona's Catapults + HSs). For punctual example, on a pub I play in EU atm of this post one guy makes Pit+Tent+Chest+Lighting Rod setups all over map for his personal use (he plays Nomadic). Am sure all of those qualify as "base" too, hence my point remains.

PS: also "mega-bases", the crux of matter. And ofc players needs to be present for waves to happen - my point is: all map can be full of "base" and Rot naturally accumulates all over world.

[Mike23Ua]

18 hours ago, TheTrueStickman said:

That's very much overexaggerating on how destructive these mechanics are, Antlion alone is more destructive than all of these combined.

Tornados don't break or harm structures in any capacity, at most they're a threat to your plants but even then they'll be picked, not dug.

Heatwaves similarly only pose a threat to you and your plants, as they do not set structures on fire.

Snowstorms just block access from your structures and only require cleaning up the area after they pass.

Uncompromising mode doesn't catter to base builders, sure, but it's not like it's actively hostile to them either.

A Tornado, of all things… should defiantly destroy everything in its path, or at the very least a good portion of it.

If the developers want to be realistic with it, maybe some tornadoes can spawn but never actually “touch ground” a Real Tornado that doesn’t touch down in your area isn’t as destructive- Take it from someone who lives in a State where we have an actual time of year called “Tornado Season”

They Terrify the crap out of me every time I see one in real life, but in video games & movies I’m fascinated by them!

I think what happened here was that the “Uncompromising Mod” Team was getting so many players disliking how actually unforgiving their mod was so they made it less Harsh.

But a TORNADO?!?! Come on…

And I’ll end this post by stating that Klei has an open world survival Sandbox, one in which a good bit of the content they add into it can be toggled on or off or be set to more or less- So if Klei wanted to actually add super destructive Tornados then they can have those features off by default that if the player actually wants to experience that- They can toggle it on.

Thats the beauty behind DST- It can be as easy or as hard as we want it to be, as long as we have settings & options to make it that way.

[Mysterious box]

33 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

A friend of mine was pretty into UM around 2 months ago (experienced advanced player, Semi-Nomad Play-style): had both words of praise and critique to it (the mod). But knowing my style too (Semi-Nomad as well, but making "shrines" and fancily decorated mini-camps) told me, after much discussions, I would probably dislike the mod quite so. And, although very outdated, correlates with my global impression with said mod after testing it some years ago. Then there's the happening with (DST) Don't Fight community some time ago and their Endless server when some people enthusiastically proposed UM for their main Endless pub - normally they play cooperatively for 2-4k in-game days between regens, most players there being advanced experienced, and always "mega-base" communally in various biomes for different challenges, sometimes testing mods. With default UM on, their world progressed to... kinda mid-to-end 1st Autumn, when all players quit progressively till server was *dead* and no one would rejoin. I believe that was the only case, with that respective UM gen, when world was prematurely regenerated, without the mod. @Kova_ probably could give you more details (sorry, K that am "summoning" you here - feel free to ignore my comment if not in mood to interact with it and topic at hand). Hence that's the extend UM is viewed by "normies" not into Survivalist play-style from my experience. Once more: game, be it vanilla or with UM, resumes itself to hectic cumulative threats - a point to always be kept in mind when discussing balance. Each danger on its own may seem trivialized with enough experience/practice. Yet a multitude of things can and will happen to warrant a more nuanced view from both Survivalist and decorative Base-builder perspectives - a compromise between the 2. That or.. separate settings (pointed Wilderness mode).

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to discount your groups experiences here but something to keep in mind is that with the balance changes of mods being an advance player while it does help it doesn't 1 to 1 apply to mods with major content shakeups which creates a barrier to entry it's why most players stick with the default experience and why mods that change core mechanics generally have a smaller bases of players. To add to that those mods aren't extensively covered with walkthroughs and the like unlike how the base game is so people are far less likely to experiment long term in them since they don't have much places to pull information from and no explanation on many of it's mechanics. I can't fully speak for their experience but it seems like they entered and dropped at the noob phase not unlike people who try dst for the first several hours it's actually a similar trend I've noticed in other mods like the adventure mode and shipwrecked mod servers and even then those have more readily available instructions. Again I'm not the authority on the subject but I also find myself in the same category of rarely straying from the default experience with heavily modded worlds and the like.

[MondayNight]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to discount your groups experiences here but something to keep in mind is that with the balance changes of mods being an advance player while it does help it doesn't 1 to 1 apply to mods with major content shakeups which creates a barrier to entry it's why most players stick with the default experience and why mods that change core mechanics generally have a smaller bases of players. To add to that those mods aren't extensively covered with walkthroughs and the like unlike how the base game is so people are far less likely to experiment long term in them since they don't have much places to pull information from and no explanation on many of it's mechanics. I can't fully speak for their experience but it seems like they entered and dropped at the noob phase not unlike people who try dst for the first several hours it's actually a similar trend I've noticed in other mods like the adventure mode and shipwrecked mod servers and even then those have more readily available instructions. Again I'm not the authority on the subject but I also find myself in the same category of rarely straying from the default experience with heavily modded worlds and the like.

No, they actually couldn't base how they used to (Rats robbed them blind and most times were just spent fighting various things as opposed to finding a place and basing) plus the new shadows decimated some rushers and/or made Insanity too tedious of a mechanic for their taste, since going insane is pretty much like going into a mini-/boss battle each time - can be fun 2-3-4 times, but doing so each time becomes a too much of a chore for too little compensation. Also all regular *DST farms* (Pigs, Bunnymen, Vargs, Krampus etc) were invalidated since UM "squashed" all exploits (like pathfinder, baiting, walls etc). Yes, some definitely went blind at it, but prior to UM being used for that particular server gen people discussed it on their discord at length. Once more: analyzing dangers on their own is one thing, but when they become cumulative is another thing altogether. Their conclusion was, if I remember well, that UM isn't base-building friendly and that's that. A mod for hardcore Survivalist challengers in a somewhat "giant battle arena" manner - seems player-base at large isn't into that.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

No, they actually couldn't base how they used to (Rats robbed them blind and most times were just spent fighting various things as opposed to finding a place and basing) plus the new shadows decimated some rushers and/or made Insanity too tedious of a mechanic for their taste, since going insane is pretty much like going into a mini-/boss battle each time - can be fun 2-3-4 times, but doing so each time becomes a too much of a chore for too little compensation. Also all regular *DST farms* (Pigs, Bunnymen, Vargs, Krampus etc) were invalidated since UM "squashed" all exploits (like pathfinder, baiting, walls etc). Yes, some definitely went blind at it, but prior to UM being used for that particular server gen people discussed it on their discord at length. Once more: analyzing dangers on their own is one thing, but when they become cumulative is another thing altogether. Their conclusion was, if I remember well, that UM isn't base-building friendly and that's that. A mod for hardcore Survivalist challengers in a somewhat "giant battle arena" manner - seems player-base at large isn't into that.

OK but that's also a matter of adapting to changed core mechanics like I said rat waves only spawn when your base is messy it checks every x amount of days to see if a lot of things are just laying around on the floor. The newer nightmare creatures only spawn if you let your sanity reach zero from what I remember. Auto farms are gone but it's not like that wouldn't have been the case for various other large shake up mods like I said previously the issue seems to be they went in expecting all their knowledge on megabasing to carry over rather than developing new knowledge on how to mega base in that mod. While it looks somewhat similar you need to go in treating it like a different game as you should for most large scale mods.

[TheTrueStickman]

56 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Define what a "base" is.

In Endless pubs (and I assume on personal servers too) people make on most circulated routes mini-camps (Firepit, Crockpot, Fridge, Lighting Rod, Science Machine - for opening gifts, Tent, a Scaled Chest with necessities) plus Lighting Rods for protecting environment and Giants' Semi-auto Farms (Winona's Catapults + HSs). For punctual example, on a pub I play in EU atm of this post one guy makes Pit+Tent+Chest+Lighting Rod setups all over map for his personal use (he plays Nomadic). Am sure all of those qualify as "base" too, hence my point remains.

Then that goes against your earlier point about being against "elaborate bases", furthermore, i've literally never seen people base like this in all my experience of playing pubs.

But to answer your question, generally an area with a multitude of structures close to eachother, these have to include an alchemy engine, crockpot or firepit.

However the way rats check for a mess and how they decide to attack a "base" is also local, so just because you left rot at a base 2 biomes away doesn't mean your main will be attacked.

49 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

A Tornado, of all things… should defiantly destroy everything in its path, or at the very least a good portion of it.

If the developers want to be realistic with it, maybe some tornadoes can spawn but never actually “touch ground” a Real Tornado that doesn’t touch down in your area isn’t as destructive- Take it from someone who lives in a State where we have an actual time of year called “Tornado Season”

They Terrify the crap out of me every time I see one in real life, but in video games & movies I’m fascinated by them!

I think what happened here was that the “Uncompromising Mod” Team was getting so many players disliking how actually unforgiving their mod was so they made it less Harsh.

But a TORNADO?!?! Come on…

Realism isn't generally a priority, or even a consideration at times, when designing the threats, but rather how they interact with gameplay.
Secondly it wasn't that too many players disliked how harsh it was, there's just this thing of the devs having common sense that a threat that just shows up without player input shouldn't be able to destroy your base with no way to counter it, while yes, Uncompromising mode is a difficulty mod, it also attempts to be a balanced one.

[MondayNight]

44 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

OK but that's also a matter of adapting to changed core mechanics like I said rat waves only spawn when your base is messy it checks every x amount of days to see if a lot of things are just laying around on the floor. The newer nightmare creatures only spawn if you let your sanity reach zero from what I remember. Auto farms are gone but it's not like that wouldn't have been the case for various other large shake up mods like I said previously the issue seems to be they went in expecting all their knowledge on megabasing to carry over rather than developing new knowledge on how to mega base in that mod. While it looks somewhat similar you need to go in treating it like a different game as you should for most large scale mods.

I'm not sure you can "mega-base" in UM or in setups akin to it - aka what some people demand in late-game from vanilla DST. Feel free to contradict me with an actual example of someone doing "mega-basing" and/or decorative base designs in UM, would certainly be interesting (I for one haven't heard of such occurrence).

 

41 minutes ago, TheTrueStickman said:

Then that goes against your earlier point about being against "elaborate bases", furthermore, i've literally never seen people base like this in all my experience of playing pubs.

It doesn't, is just how different people play differently multi-player with same end-result - Rot accumulating on circulated routes - some are messy, some are minimalistic, some do elaborate designs, some nomad and travel a lot... and all on same server: remember - multiplayer game. All this amounts to Rot, as underlined - naturally accumulating in inhabited worlds. UM is indeed against elaborate bases that use plants and trees as decorations, Rocks, Shells, Bush Hats and more - as stated, for example, Tornadoes scatter those all around. Can and cannot be the same player that in early game is messy and minimalistic only for late-game to be organized and building elaborate setups. Or people that don't care about World and use it as toilet paper, littering everywhere (killing Mooslings and leaving the Meat, leaving Froglegs from Beefs vs Frog Rain on ground, killing Klaus and leaving its undesired loot on spot after opening gifts etc) - all above can and will happen on same server at some point. At core KLei balances the game primarily for multiplayer. And in multiplayer all of the above happen. If my camp happens (and probably it will) to be close to such spots, Rats "Bounjour! Qu'est-ce qu'on a a voler ici?" me. Also what becomes of my camp in relation to UM's Rats if I collect Rot in a chest to fertilize?! Isn't that how strats go off the table?

[TheTrueStickman]

28 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Also what becomes of my camp in relation to UM's Rats if I collect Rot in a chest to fertilize?! Isn't that how strats go off the table?

Composting bin, Werepigs or Koalephant pens for manure, you have options.

[Mysterious box]

33 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

I'm not sure you can "mega-base" in UM or in setups akin to it - aka what some people demand in late-game from vanilla DST. Feel free to contradict me with an actual example of someone doing "mega-basing" and/or decorative base designs in UM, would certainly be interesting (I for one haven't heard of such occurrence).

 

I mean I can't really since there's not a large amount of players playing mods like uncomp, shipwrecked, or adventure mode and mods like them where things are massively shaken up for a group as I said most people tend to prefer the default experience though I do agree it would be interesting to see what some uncomp megabases would look like and how they'd differ from the standard game ones.