Should new players protection extend to post AFW/CC natural disasters?

[Mysterious box]

8 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Not all players are hard core like us. Once per week i have seen at least 5~6 players who return from 6 months, or years of not playing dst to be welcomed with death. There are also players who play alot but never experiences rift content because they cant defeat final boss, and when they join a world where rift unlocked, they literally cant go to cave on spring.

10 days is more than enough for them to explore around, get a hold of their map, prepare basic gears before decide what to do next.

I mean if it's a returning player they can already do that as they don't need to live in the caves the moment they come back and they can bring rain gear and the like while searching for the shadow rifts when they finally decide to take the dive.

8 hours ago, Tranoze said:

The new players protection system are not there to protect complete newbies. Hound wont spawn on them, but after day 10 hound spawn, and they cant 1v1 hound, they will also die. They have grass and twigs to craft torch, but if they dont know how to craft torch, they will die.
They are there to protect average players who know decent about the game, but join in too harsh environment for them to survive, when they clearly unequipped and unarmored. This is to give them the chance to continue playing the game, so when they meet a more decent player, who know about late game content, the decent player can teach them about this new danger they have to face, and how to face it.

The issue with this comparison is the late game isn't this I agree it could use more signs the rifts are active however if you stay on the surface till you get your bearings there's nothing that will outright kill you if you don't interact with it and when they feel sufficiently prepared they can tackle the caves. 

[Tranoze]

42 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean if it's a returning player they can already do that as they don't need to live in the caves the moment they come back

Lots of return players dont even know what rift is. They dont read patch note during their absent, and cave with light bulb is one of the most important resource they need to use for latern - most common used light source in the game.
Why they go deeper in cave? because they need flint and gold to craft science machine, alchemy to craft latern. On world where rift already summoned, most likely all bolder in surface are mined, and if they want steady amount of flint, they have to go to cave.

There are world where they are provided alchemy at start, and there are world arent, they have to do their best with what they are given.

[chirsg]

I've played with Tranoze before on public servers and his concerns come from a place of compassion. 

You see a lot of new players come in that have newly purchased the game and of course, as a player, you generally want to see new players stick around and appreciate the same thing you do in the world. 

It is a bit sudden for a player to die due to open air and I can see the point Tranoze makes. 

I'm unsure how to make all parties happy, but I definitely see the sides of the concerns put forward. 
You probably can't make all parties happy, but perhaps a banner warning a new player when joining a world with rifts

Caution: You are joining a post rift world with unprecedented challenges for new players. Do you wish to proceed?

As far as the period of grace goes, perhaps it gets in the way with my rambo playstyle when joining a world with post game challenges, maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing to give players some grace.

 

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Tranoze said:

Lots of return players dont even know what rift is. They dont read patch note during their absent, and cave with light bulb is one of the most important resource they need to use for latern - most common used light source in the game.
Why they go deeper in cave? because they need flint and gold to craft science machine, alchemy to craft latern. On world where rift already summoned, most likely all bolder in surface are mined, and if they want steady amount of flint, they have to go to cave.

There are world where they are provided alchemy at start, and there are world arent, they have to do their best with what they are given.

Understandable but in that case why not instead add a explanation the point I'm getting at is adding a invincibility phase isn't going to help them learn anything without outside help and if they have that outside help then the invincibility peroid isn't needed in the first place.

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

Caution: You are joining a post rift world with unprecedented challenges for new players. Do you wish to proceed?

This would be the most ideal that or something explaining how to engage with the new mechanics.

Just to be clear I'm not against helping new or returning players with joining these late game worlds but if it's done it should be in a meaningful way that will actually help them get better and just giving them temporary immunity isn't doing that.

[Tranoze]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

a invincibility phase isn't going to help them learn anything

Yes, starting pharse are not there for you or anyone to learn. Those are there for you to prepare before real danger come. As i mentioned before, new players protection are not for completely newbies, they are there for unprepared players who freshly joined. Especially for current acid rain that counter play require specific craft that cant be instantly craft on day 1.
As klei will add more disasters, who know if next one will instantly kill fresly joined player or not?

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Just to be clear I'm not against helping new or returning players with joining these late game worlds but if it's done it should be in a meaningful way.

I just want to point out that these aren’t really “late-game” worlds though- whatever the fastest time it is you can achieve defeating CK, CC & AFW is how fast the “Late Game” can be pushed into the “Early Game”

Originally.. you needed a summer flower that only grew on like day 70 but now, (provided you or someone you’re playing with is a God at playing the game.) whatever the average time to rush rift activation is.. is now how fast new players have to deal with the “end game”

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Yes, starting pharse are not there for you or anyone to learn. Those are there for you to prepare before real danger come. As i mentioned before, new players protection are not for completely newbies, they are there for unprepared players who freshly joined. Especially for current acid rain that counter play require specific craft that cant be instantly craft on day 1.
As klei will add more disasters, who know if next one will instantly kill fresly joined player or not?

But as I've already said you can prepare beforehand you don't get handed a umbralla the moment a shadow rift is activated nor do you immediately need to go to the caves you can prepare to face the rift on the surface and then when your ready you can take it on you just need to know about it which is why I think informing the player is the better way to handle it on both fronts. For a returning player giving them invulnerability isn't solving the core issue being lack of knowledge on what's going on. Also we know kiel isn't going to introduce a mechanic that instantly kills the player specifically due to backlash this content has already caused.

[Popian]

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

As i mentioned before, new players protection are not for completely newbies, they are there for unprepared players who freshly joined. Especially for current acid rain that counter play require specific craft that cant be instantly craft on day 1.

Acid rain is not too demanding if you start with full hp (Wanda might have more trouble). If you do happen to encounter it and insist on staying it can be played like a Spring start with a Straw Hat and Pretty Parasol, but with a greater focus on finding healing instead of places to dry off (this is useful for planning and crafting, however) every now and then.

[Tranoze]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

do you immediately need to go to the caves

The game is not only about rift, it about other aspect of surviving too, and cave contain lots of important resources i mention before that needed for surviving, especially flint and light bulb. If you joined in harsh season, like winnter or summer, flint is very needed to craft thermal stone, and not all base have stockpile of flint for them.

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

lack of knowledge on what's going on.

Even me, who have decent knowledge on what's going on, cant survive acid rain if i fresh join without protected gears, which make me avoid cave until i have them. Im not trying to solve problem that unaware player unable to survive acid rain, im trying to make unprepared player not having to face acid rain, regard of them aware of acid rain existing or not. The thing i want to implement is just like hound attack or worm protection as i mentioned in original post, do you expect a day 1 to kill 6 worms right away? Yes you can just run away, but letting unprepared player fight unfair fight is the real problem i want to solve.

1 hour ago, Popian said:

 full hp ..a Straw Hat and Pretty Parasol...

Only if a freshly joined player have a stack of grass to craft 5 straw hat. And healing on top of that.

[Popian]

8 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Even me, who have decent knowledge on what's going on, cant survive acid rain if i fresh join without protected gears..

Only if a freshly joined player have a stack of grass to craft 5 straw hat. And healing on top of that.

I am getting the impression that you haven't actually tried it.

[Mysterious box]

42 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

The game is not only about rift, it about other aspect of surviving too, and cave contain lots of important resources i mention before that needed for surviving, especially flint and light bulb. If you joined in harsh season, like winnter or summer, flint is very needed to craft thermal stone, and not all base have stockpile of flint for them.

Acid rain isn't so extreme that you can't go down for light bulbs. Meteor fields, birds, and tree petrification work to make sure that newer players won't be without flint.

 

1 hour ago, Tranoze said:

Even me, who have decent knowledge on what's going on, cant survive acid rain if i fresh join without protected gears, which make me avoid cave until i have them. Im not trying to solve problem that unaware player unable to survive acid rain, im trying to make unprepared player not having to face acid rain, regard of them aware of acid rain existing or not. The thing i want to implement is just like hound attack or worm protection as i mentioned in original post, do you expect a day 1 to kill 6 worms right away? Yes you can just run away, but letting unprepared player fight unfair fight is the real problem i want to solve.

So our supposed experienced returnee can't make a umbrella? Our hypothetical world is that devastated? Fine how about a rain hat or a raincoat? This isn't pre nerfed acid rain it's nowhere near as bad against rain clothes.

[Tranoze]

38 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Acid rain isn't so extreme that you can't go down for light bulbs. Meteor fields, birds, and tree petrification work to make sure that newer players won't be without flint.

So our supposed experienced returnee can't make a umbrella? Our hypothetical world is that devastated? Fine how about a rain hat or a raincoat? This isn't pre nerfed acid rain it's nowhere near as bad against rain clothes.

Yes, there are world where "speed runners wannabe" hammered all pig houses on the world and killed all pigs, to the point noone have pigskins to make umbrella.
Bird and petri tree give flint, but not gold, you cant craft rain hat or rain coat without gold for science machine or alchemy. There are world where they show you where base is, but there also world you need to find base on your own, and if they build their base in lunar, or deep in ruin, for what ever preferences they like, that might require you to explore in cave.

I have joined countless world, so there are hopeful world, there are also very very devastated world.

Meteor, petri tree require exploration to find, and if you joined in summer, with grass and twigs on surface all withered, you cant craft more than 2 torches to explore at night, you have to go to cave. And if it acid rain down cave in summer? My option there would be exit the game.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Yes, there are world where "speed runners wannabe" hammered all pig houses on the world and killed all pigs, to the point noone have pigskins to make umbrella.
Bird and petri tree give flint, but not gold, you cant craft rain hat or rain coat without gold for science machine or alchemy.

Pig king still exists as a method for gold as do meteor showers

 

10 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Meteor, petri tree require exploration to find, and if you joined in summer, with grass and twigs on surface all withered, you cant craft more than 2 torches to explore at night, you have to go to cave. And if it acid rain down cave in summer? My option there would be exit the game.

I'ma be real if the world has been devastated by players on the surface, it's summer, and whoever is there refuses to help why in the world would you even consider going to the caves at that point you should just leave staying would be far more stressful rifts or not. 

[Tranoze]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

you should just leave

That is the whole new player protection is about. For player who freshly join wont "just leave" because how unfair the world scaled up with old players. If hound counter is shared between everyone and use world age instead of player age, you could face 6 hounds and a varglet on first day. but "you could just leave" though...

[Mysterious box]

37 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

That is the whole new player protection is about. For player who freshly join wont "just leave" because how unfair the world scaled up with old players. If hound counter is shared between everyone and use world age instead of player age, you could face 6 hounds and a varglet on first day. but "you could just leave" though...

 

53 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I'ma be real if the world has been devastated by players on the surface, it's summer, and whoever is there refuses to help why in the world would you even consider going to the caves at that point you should just leave staying would be far more stressful rifts or not. 

How does new player protection solve this? It doesn't make the world not devastated and it doesn't make it not summer. If your stance is well it could hypothetically help a player get started in the worst case scenario under the worst circumstances then I honestly feel like that's a complete waste of time at that point the player should find another world rather than sticking around potentially getting frustrated and resorting to griefing. Even then however if people are going so far out of their way to make it unhospitable to people that join that server odds are they'll just kick them after they've been shown capable of surviving.

[Tranoze]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

How does new player protection solve this? It doesn't make the world not devastated and it doesn't make it not summer.

10 days incave in summer is basically a pass to summer (which last 15 days, and the first 2 and last 2 day you wont be overheat for most of the day). especially when you are sure there are no acid rain killing you.
New player protection also already add starting gear for player to join to help player who start in summer, spring or winter.

Have you ever joined an existing world before or you just host your own world? To the point you dont know what new player protection does? It give you 5 grass, 5 twigs, 1 flint and seasonal starting item. It help a lot to players who join in summer, spring and winter. Right now it have no features against rift disasters, which what im asking for.

[Mysterious box]

18 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

10 days incave in summer is basically a pass to summer (which last 15 days, and the first 2 and last 2 day you wont be overheat for most of the day). especially when you are sure there are no acid rain killing you.
New player protection also already add starting gear for player to join to help player who start in summer, spring or winter.

Have you ever joined an existing world before or you just host your own world? To the point you dont know what new player protection does? It give you 5 grass, 5 twigs, 1 flint and seasonal starting item. It help a lot to players who join in summer, spring and winter. Right now it have no features against rift disasters, which what im asking for.

No I know what it does what I'm saying is your scenario is illogical as I explained above a player has multiple methods to get rain gear but your defense is what if the worst possible scenario happens which isn't a good excuse as to why this protection is needed if the worst possible unrealistic scenario happens then they should find another server or wait until summer ends.

[Tranoze]

18 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

your scenario is illogical... the worst possible scenario happens...

after rift opened, they only close for 5 days after every cycle, and all cave rain turn into acid rain during rift.
All season can have cave rain, especially spring, where you should avoid go cave if you freshly joined, which i havent mention at all.
It just summer is when you really want to go cave, because of overheat protection and non-withered grass and twigs.

22 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

a player has multiple methods to get rain gear

a player have multiple methods of getting armor and weapon, even more than getting rain gear, so they should fight 6 hound and 1 varglet right after they join?

for decent rain protection:
Umbrella, require pigskins, which lots of world have pig houses hammered.
Rain coat, require tentacles spots, which require you to kill tentacles, or pick spots from war, which most likely be all picked before because you joined an existing world, so you have to kill 10 tentacles on average to get them.
Rain hat, require mole (which require you to explore a little bit or go cave, which might have acid rain right now)

Alchemy, which require 5 gold, which is doable if you kill catcoon 5 times and gift to pig king.
Hound tooth for sewing kit to repair rain gears, as acid rain reduce duability, which how can you get if hound does not spawn on you and, sometimes, all hound mold in df desert already got cleared?

Is 10 days of preparation too much to ask to get those gears?

[Captain_Rage]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

No I know what it does what I'm saying is your scenario is illogical as I explained above a player has multiple methods to get rain gear but your defense is what if the worst possible scenario happens which isn't a good excuse as to why this protection is needed if the worst possible unrealistic scenario happens then they should find another server or wait until summer ends.

Not only the worst scenario but also extremely hypothetical. The argument is "what if a godlike player rushes and activates the rifts" and then leaves the server. lol. >_> There are a lot more detrimental things that can happen in a world for noobs, like if somebody releases the Nightmare Werepig and leaves it roaming in the caves.

It feels like these suggestions are an attempt at trolling. I admire your attempt to try to explain why the suggestions are less than great.

3 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Rain hat, require mole (which require you to explore a little bit or go cave, which might have acid rain right now)

Alchemy, which require 5 gold, which is doable if you kill catcoon 5 times and gift to pig king.
Hound tooth for sewing kit to repair rain gears, as acid rain reduce duability, which how can you get if hound does not spawn on you and, sometimes, all hound mold in df desert already got cleared?

Is 10 days of preparation too much to ask to get those gears?

Yes, since these things are easy to find on the surface, unless a world is starved of resources already because then you have a bigger problem to begin with. Obtaining Moleworms on the surface is hardly difficult.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Tranoze said:

after rift opened, they only close for 5 days after every cycle, and all cave rain turn into acid rain during rift.
All season can have cave rain, especially spring, where you should avoid go cave if you freshly joined, which i havent mention at all.
It just summer is when you really want to go cave, because of overheat protection and non-withered grass and twigs.

Not sure if you've realized but I've played the end game so I'm aware of this even at it's peak damage output acid rain isn't so strong that you couldn't head down for a second to get light bulbs.

 

4 hours ago, Tranoze said:

a player have multiple methods of getting armor and weapon, even more than getting rain gear, so they should fight 6 hound and 1 varglet right after they join?

Hmm in one corner we have a bunch of mobs that'll chase you through the surface world where resources for survival are most abundant in a potentially harsh season where you need to collect resources. On the other corner we a specific weather condition which does chip damage that only happens in caves that you can engage with at your leisure. Surely these produce the same level of threat.

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

or decent rain protection:
Umbrella, require pigskins, which lots of world have pig houses hammered.
Rain coat, require tentacles spots, which require you to kill tentacles, or pick spots from war, which most likely be all picked before because you joined an existing world, so you have to kill 10 tentacles on average to get them.
Rain hat, require mole (which require you to explore a little bit or go cave, which might have acid rain right now)

If our player in this scenario can't do at least one of these options then I'd say they fall under the newbie category and shouldn't be joining in a harsh season to begin with if combat and exploration is too taxing for them.

 

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Alchemy, which require 5 gold, which is doable if you kill catcoon 5 times and gift to pig king.

Or do a hunt, kill some birds, kill some rabbits, etc.

5 hours ago, Tranoze said:

Hound tooth for sewing kit to repair rain gears, as acid rain reduce duability

Even a max power acid rain doesn't drain rain gear super fast I'm beginning to think you haven't touched post rift gameplay since the rain nerf. 

[Tranoze]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Not sure if you've realized but I've played the end game so I'm aware of this even at it's peak damage output acid rain isn't so strong that you couldn't head down for a second to get light bulbs.

Even a max power acid rain doesn't drain rain gear super fast I'm beginning to think you haven't touched post rift gameplay since the rain nerf. 

Yes, if you joined cave, have clear goal in mind for few light bulb, see acid rain after you go down and quick pick 2 light bulb and go up.

But for people who are exploring (for people who just joined, exploring is the most important part now, unless you have map hax and already know where everything is), who go down cave not only for light bulb, but all other vast amount of resouces cave provide can help them survive later, they might be in ruin, (remember, acid rain = ruin already reset, there could be plenty of resources there) or just deep in cave when acid rain start. with 1 damage per 1.5 second and 3 damage to armor, a Maxwell main like me would die in under 2 mins. Not every character have 150 ~200 hp to survive 225~300 secs in acid rain.

Without acid rain, nobody craft umbrella or rain protection outside spring, as rain are not that much of a penalty for anyone outside spring. This has been mine and lots of players playstyle, having umbrella outside of spring is a waste of time and slots. Acid rain changed that, now if you want to go to cave outside of spring, you should have prepared a rain protection item, even if it is autumn, if rift is opened, and you can only know if rift is open or not if you already down cave (which i agree that a warning before join would be nice.

[Mysterious box]

At this point I accept I'm being trolled and I'll let it go.