Deep Dive of Wormwoods skill tree and it's purpose

[HowlVoid]

I think it reasonable to assume Klei won't accept feedback that doesn't align with their end goal. I am of a mind to try any and all approaches for an amicable end result we can all be happy with.

It's entirely possible we have been laboring under a misapprehension regarding the "use" of wormwoods skills. If they are meant to simply be a guiding hand in the many interactions wormwood is capable of, then simply suggesting for something with more "utility" won't be enough. They have to align with what their end goal is. 

Given some lack of communication on their part it's as simple as throwing stones in the dark and may even be too late. I'd still like to try anyways.

Having that in mind I'd like some input from others on wether they agree with the purpose of some of these skills and if not, how they can be changed. 

 

Butterfly Friend- Butterflies will no longer fly away from you.

Perhaps meant to alert the player of Wormwood's lack of healing through foods. I think butterflys are the worst way to approach this even if they are the earliest warning possible. MM and red mushrooms exist and do more than present this as merely a weakness.

Spoiler

A quick replacement I can come up with are red mushrooms and how there can be a benefit in their consumption; they too do not affect his health. Though rather than presenting it as an immediate downside it communicates to the player that it is more of a change in playstyle with pros and cons. They are a pleasant snack in the early game and mushroom planters can lead to some extended use in the Mid/late game (although I think the current state of planters isn't great). 

 

Sapling Crafting  - Sacrifice health to craft Lunar Saplings. 

Does not tie in with Wormwoods playstyle in any form. 

 

Berry Bush crafting - Sacrifice health to craft Berry Bushes. 

Does not tie in with wormwoods playstyle in any form. He does not have a synergy with berry bushes only veggies (growing them). Any ties with the character would fall under "thematic" reasons. (In case anyone wonders what a synergy with the berry bush would look like, we have Wurt who receives greater hunger from berries)

 

Juicy Berry Bush Crafting - Sacrifice health to craft Juicy Berry Bushes.

Berry bushes 2: electric bogaloo. Not sure why we have two skills that are the same thing. Juicy berry bushes are side grade to berry bushes. There is no reason why these skills are not one in the same.

 

Monkeytail Crafting- Sacrifice health to craft Monkeytails.

Wormwood has synergy with the plant, there are two very useful recipes wormwood can obtain from the use of reeds. Communicates to the player alternative means of healing.

Spoiler

Honey poultice and night armor. Night armor has even greater synergy with wormwood given he can negate the sanity penalty with planting seeds and pairs well with the bat bat (HP regained on less HP lost means less dps loss using it over a darksword). Wormwood also keeps the full effect of blooming's speed increase unlike marble armor.

 

Lureplants Crafting - Sacrifice health to craft Lureplant.

Nothing much to see here, lureplants don't attack wormwood.

Spoiler

I have used lureplants to a small effect against bee queen as they slow down grumbles. The eyes die quickly and regrow far too slowly. For the longest time this was the only plant mob wormwood had any considerable interactions with. Interactions with plant mobs could of honestly have been a path in its own right. Wormwood has never had a short supply of food, I think it's a waste to communicate such a niche interaction if you're not going to improve on it.

 

Poor Sap - Learn to craft Ipecaca Syrup to induce pooping in other creatures.

Almost led me to believe Klei thinks of Wormwood as a joke character, almost. Petals have a higher potential for passive manure production. Meant to communicate to the player wormwood interaction with manure? This could of been expressed better imo.

Spoiler

This perk could of been far better spent on improving the compost wrap's use and/or utility. The compost wrap is useable by all accounts but arguments can be made of it's viability when compared to alternatives. For example: An improvement could of made made here to allow wormwood to skip blooming phases to warrant a unique use outside of healing. This would still communicate the same message about wormwood and fertilizers and more so. In that fertilizer not only heal wormwood but some provide blooming (spoiled fish).

 

Moonshrooms Cloud - Release sleep-inducing spores when eating a Moon Shroom.

A fun and unique ability, too bad it stands on its own with nothing to complement it. Still better than other skills.

 

Mushroom Mastery I - Mushrooms planted in a Mushroom Planter grow a little faster.

Mushroom Mastery II - Mushrooms planted in a Mushroom Planter grow much faster.

Mushroom Multiplier - Mushrooms planted in a Mushroom Planter produce a higher yield.

A connection to mushrooms spread out over three whole skills... Yet it does not address some of the difficulties planters face, they cannot be used during winter or without a sinkhole nearby. Missed opportunity to tie in with moonshrooms and it's corresponding skill.

Spoiler

I used to make a lot of use of mushroom planters (specifically red mushrooms) and used it as my passive source of food. I have since traded this in for beeboxes. Wormwood has a greater synergy with beeboxes because he negates their biggest downside, spring bees. Also having to deal with bats and loading screens whenever I wanted red mushrooms or to check on their progress, it became tedious over hundreds of hours. Spring bees also follow wormwood which can double as a pig Village or hound wave nuke.

 

Lunar Guardian I - Seize foes and keep them rooted in place while wearing Brightshade Armor.

Lunar Guardian II - Summon vines to join the fray while attacking with Brightshade weapons.

 A perk alluding to wormwood's connection to the moon. His first two combat skills, and yet skills for his plant crafts are no where to be seen. Wormwood has always been a versatile character not exclusively a farming one. Why do skills for his crafts not exist?

 

Seed Sleuth- Learn to identify seeds that have just been planted, to determine what they will grow into.

A skill pointing to wormwood's connection to seeds. This could of been done better. It has no place once you have all the seeds you require.

Spoiler

If the skill must remain seed specific:

Why not let wormwood collect seeds after using manure on himself? 

Why not let wormwood collect seeds from weeds?

Why not let wormwood throw seeds so he can grow them 3, 5 or 8 at a time? Seed confetti. 

There are a lot of possibilities. I'm not a farming type of Wormwood player, I'm sure others have better ideas.

 

Growth Spurt I - Reach full bloom a bit quicker.

Growth Spurt II - Reach full bloom much quicker.

Flower Power - Stay in full bloom longer.

Skills referencing Wormwoods blooming ability. Not much to see here.

 

Petal Production - Produce flower petals while in full bloom.

Filler skill, could have some potential use taming beefalo and potentially can create a lot of passive manure.

 

Shade Plant- Gain increased protection from overheating when in full bloom.

This exists. When wormwood is aboveground tending to a field? Although wormwood can have underground farms too. A skill dedicated to one season, Woody and Wolfgang don't have season locked niche skills...

 

Farmhand I - Tend farm plants within a larger range while full bloom.

Farmhand II - Tend farm plants within an even larger range while full bloom.

Farmhand III - Tend farm plants within a vast range while full bloom.

No one knows why these skills exist. Replace them with plant crafts. You want to let new players know those exists right? Maybe even how to use them? 

Spoiler

Based on suggestions made by the community and myself here are some replacements.

Bramble mastery 1

Bramble traps will trap an enemy that walks over them. (They still set off as normal)

Or

Bramble traps reset after a short period of being near a blooming wormwood.

Bramble mastery 2

Bramble husk periodically consumes a use of a "trigger" when wormwood is blooming. (Rewards dodging)

Or

Bramble husk grows progressively stronger with each trigger (up to a cap and rewards tanking)

Healthy shedding

Wormwood will shed 1 living log rarely when at full health.

 

Fly Trap - Fruit flies will be drawn to you instead of farm plants. The Lord of the Fruit Flies is more likely to appear.

Im not sure what this one is for?

Also kinda spoils a threat in the game that could of been a surprise. Seems like excessive hand holding.

 

Bee kind - Killer bees won't leave their hives or attack unless provoked.

Killer bees are a good source of stingers. I guess you can move through the bee biome easier one time in the map exploration phase. If a connection is to be had with bees, let wormwood collect honey from bee boxes undisturbed or perhaps even from hives.

 

Lunar cultivator I - Tap into your lunar roots to transform Carrots into Carrats.

Lunar Cultivator II - Tap into your lunar roots to transform Lightbulbs into Bulbous Lightbugs.

Lunar Cultivator III - Tap into your lunar roots to transform Dragon Fruit into Saladmanders.

More thematic skills pertaining to wormwood's lunar roots. Hopefully these get tuned to be more useful.

 

For some reason Klei struggles in communicating a facet of wormwood with a skill, while keeping said skill relevant throughout gameplay. I hope we can give some feedback that challenges that, and prove it does not need to be the case.

[NexusMercer]

Craft recipes:  add grass and normal asplings. I don't know why Wormwood can craft lunar asplings but cannot craft grass and normal asplings. I think this skill will help a lot in non-endless style

Bee kind:  Wormwood can get honey from hive or will not be attacked when getting honey from artificial hive.  Only being not attacked in spring is useless, why we must meet bees in spring?

Mashroom: Wormwood can plant lunar mashroom, otherwise the Moon Shroom Cloud skill is useless.

[Ohan]

41 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Farmhand I -

Farmhand II -

Farmhand III -

No one knows why these skills exist

Literallyyyyyyyy lmao  sooooo weird

41 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Almost led me to believe Klei thinks of Wormwood as a joke character, almost.

Im more than convinced tbh. Judging from his skilltree I think they see him as the “”””””Haha silly poopy plant boi”””””” and not much else. 

the fact that saladmanders spawn in on fire when wormwood is specifically weak to fire must literally be an intentional joke.

Like idk how else something like that could come to be. 

——

Ofcourse i agree with all ur points. Period .

im sorta over it at this point if im being honest. This isnt just one or two meh skills its the big majority of the tree that just does not really serve the survivor. 

Everything that needed to be said has been said at this point. 

[Mysterious box]

19 minutes ago, Ohan said:

the fact that saladmanders spawn in on fire when wormwood is specifically weak to fire must literally be an intentional joke.

So as to alleviate your concerns in Willow's update Bernie shall now release a frost aura at all times nullifying insulation and periodically freezing all nearby mobs and players.

[Evelo]

Literally the only skills I like of the skill tree are the 3 Lunar Cultivator. Not because they are useful, they really aren't considering the major downside Ripe Saladmanders have, but because I just love Saladmanders. I'm going to just spawn so many of them (though I think there is a cap which... why?) because they are just so cute. All the other skills exist but really don't make me happy. Having Bee Kind not disturb bee boxes would be delightful. Also having a skill that makes it so Bees aren't attracted to you while in bloom would be useful because bees don't pollinate while you are in bloom which is anti-synergy with bee boxes despite the bonus of not having to worry about bees in the spring. That or just make bees pollinate while you are in bloom so you don't care if they aren't touching flowers.

The only use I have for butterflies not flying away is specifically for bees since you need flowers for them to make honey. Wormwood's skills seem to actively encourage people to use him as a swap character which, knowing me by now, makes my sap boil.

I love wormwood and want the best for him but it really feels like Klei doesn't.

[liuyuncangye]

Wormwoods' skill book has a lot of nonsense and I'm hoping to recreate the skill tree

[HowlVoid]

47 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Literally the only skills I like of the skill tree are the 3 Lunar Cultivator. Not because they are useful, they really aren't considering the major downside Ripe Saladmanders have, but because I just love Saladmanders. I'm going to just spawn so many of them (though I think there is a cap which... why?) because they are just so cute. All the other skills exist but really don't make me happy. Having Bee Kind not disturb bee boxes would be delightful. Also having a skill that makes it so Bees aren't attracted to you while in bloom would be useful because bees don't pollinate while you are in bloom which is anti-synergy with bee boxes despite the bonus of not having to worry about bees in the spring. That or just make bees pollinate while you are in bloom so you don't care if they aren't touching flowers.

The only use I have for butterflies not flying away is specifically for bees since you need flowers for them to make honey. Wormwood's skills seem to actively encourage people to use him as a swap character which, knowing me by now, makes my sap boil.

I love wormwood and want the best for him but it really feels like Klei doesn't.

Yes they are very cute. They can also kill us lol. At the very least I'd like them to not set wormwood on fire haha.

[GenomeSquirrel]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Yes they are very cute. They can also kill us lol. At the very least I'd like them to not set wormwood on fire haha.

The Willow main part of my brain thinks they are wasted on him …

[goblinball]

What if one of wormwood’s perks made it so that bees could pollinate off of him while he’s in full bloom

you could slap this into his bee or petal production perks maybe 

idk how useful this would be but it’d strengthen his ties to bees and flowers/flower production 

[HowlVoid]

18 hours ago, goblinball said:

What if one of wormwood’s perks made it so that bees could pollinate off of him while he’s in full bloom

you could slap this into his bee or petal production perks maybe 

idk how useful this would be but it’d strengthen his ties to bees and flowers/flower production 

Tbh that sounds cool. 

[Fill-Lips]

I think seed sleuth is fine as is, it's right at the beginning of the skill tree and it also allows you to identify random seeds as soon as you plant and tend them. Having those seeds be easily identifiable is quite the time saver, as when planting a complete square in a farm plot, 1-2 of those seeds will likely be weeds or mediocore foods.

But yeah, the tend branch is just... so bad. The lunar plant creatures aren't too bad, being able to have a circle of light around you early on is pretty useful, carrats are nice for gathering stuff strun about, and... saladmanders hurt. But if I wanted to summon these creatures, I'd have to take the bloom branch or the tend branch, and with how bad the tend branch is, I feel forced into taking the bloom branch, which is alright, but why can't the tend branch be a viable choice too?

[Lupinangel]

Dumb skill tree I'm playing Wormwood just to advocate a better one on twitch/lupinangel if you feel like complaining I sure am. Skil tree should be twice as big and over halve the skills are low key worthless. Atleast make photosynthesis viable please...please..klie

[mr_slaad]

I think they could add something more to shade plant skill (the skill that increased Overheating protection for wormwood, while he's blooming). For Example: Cactuses starts Blooming (Cactus Flower outside summer season) when you are near it, while you are in Blooming state. 

[Ryusuta]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:25 PM, mr_slaad said:

I think they could add something more to shade plant skill (the skill that increased Overheating protection for wormwood, while he's blooming). For Example: Cactuses starts Blooming (Cactus Flower outside summer season) when you are near it, while you are in Blooming state. 

I would absolutely LOVE this.