Ocean Feedback Thread

[Mysterious box]

28 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

"The only thing new player unfriendly about DTS is how it does nothing to help the player and makes it hard as basalt to actually figure anything out"

 

Yeah I think you're just proving my point here lad.

I mean it wasn't said to counter your point more so clarifying where said difficulty was coming from.

28 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Who do you think is just sitting around in their base all day without leaving

Not everyone does this but this is a common sight on a pc pub server

[Mike23Ua]

17 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Who do you think is just sitting around in their base all day without leaving?

I feel your perspective of other players is extremely skewed.  Like you feel you're the only one playing the game "right" or something.  Almost every post lately is some hate slinging on the "lazy casuals" that are megabasers.  Give it a rest dude, I get it - YOU want a game where everything just randomly blows up and kills you, that's great for YOU to want that.  Make a mod or something lol.

Why do you magically think that I want Everything to blow up and kill you? Lol.. that’s not at all what any of my messages have been trying to express, I want items that can only be found by leaving the main land Everyones so comfortably attached to.. forcing them out onto the Ocean and more importantly to other (hopefully interesting) Islands to gather resources and items, that can only be obtained at Sea or on those other island across the Sea, Items that without… will make it harder or mildly inconvenient to stay in the area your so attached to.

To put that into a TL:DR- it’s like if instead of getting the Desert Goggles from fishing in the Oasis (in the very same desert you need the goggles for..) that craft could instead only be found at an Oasis that is out across the Ocean somewhere.

Sure you CAN Totally stay and live in your sandstorm without the craft if you want to, but your life would get a whole lot easier if you just go out to sea, find the oasis, obtain the blueprint, and then go back to the biome that’s covered in a sandstorm.

Like Hamlets Poison Forests, or well anything that wasn’t completely Optional, and actually required X Gear to Progress.

(the Brightshades you hate now are close though )

[GenomeSquirrel]

10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Yes, but Novelty isn't sustainable. It's inevitably bound to wear off once the player engages with it enough. If the ruins where mere novelty instead of having some of the best equipment in the game, then players with 17,000 hours wouldn't be starting most worlds with a ruins rush. If they even touched it at all.

i'd argue that ruins rushing is very much a novelty, think what people do with this "best" equipment, it's poor for food, poor for getting wood or rocks, no farms or long term benefits.

it's for the person that wants to spend time killings bosses, and killing bosses is another novelty, also poor for food, wood, rocks, farms, some have longer term benefits, but overall most don't.

 

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

i'd argue that ruins rushing is very much a novelty, think what people do with this "best" equipment, it's poor for food, poor for getting wood or rocks, no farms or long term benefits.

it's for the person that wants to spend time killings bosses, and killing bosses is another novelty, also poor for food, wood, rocks, farms, some have longer term benefits, but overall most don't.

 

What. Best fighting gear in the game is not a novelty. The boss drops aren’t novelty, they’re better equipment. You could loosely say anything is a novelty if you wanted to.

[Mike23Ua]

13 minutes ago, Dextops said:

What. Best fighting gear in the game is not a novelty. The boss drops aren’t novelty, they’re better equipment. You could loosely say anything is a novelty if you wanted to.

Not really, no.. I mean for DST yes it is I guess, but for Shipwrecked & Hamlet in particular (and some moments in Solo Adventures Mode..) you absolutely under no other circumstances NEEDED a particular item to progress or else be locked out of that part of the game.

A couple examples include: Needing to Raise/Lower Sanity to bypass Obsidian Pillars in Adventure mode Chapters, Needing to build a Boat to travel to new islands in Shipwrecked that has the resources you needed on them to stay alive with rather than everything being conveniently located on the mainland you NEVER need to build a boat and leave in DST.., or across ponds in Hamlet, Needing to build a Poison Gas Mask to travel through the Poisoned Biome in Hamlet.

These are things that are all largely missing from DST… and it annoys me that DST isn’t as closely connected to Solo DS as I’d like for it to be.

[Theukon-dos]

55 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

i'd argue that ruins rushing is very much a novelty, think what people do with this "best" equipment, it's poor for food, poor for getting wood or rocks, no farms or long term benefits.

it's for the person that wants to spend time killings bosses, and killing bosses is another novelty, also poor for food, wood, rocks, farms, some have longer term benefits, but overall most don't.

 

>Best light source (Starcaller's staff)

>Best armor (Thulecite crowns)

>Item duplication (Construction and deconstruction staves)

>Light and speed (Magiluminessence) 

>Tons upon Tons of nightmare fuel for all the many items that use it

>More gold than anyone could possibly use via an excessive amount of wires

 

Gonna be honest, if your definition of "Novelty" amounts to "anything that isn't strictly required for the player's survival", then I don't think we're going to really get anywhere. 

[GenomeSquirrel]

25 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

>Best light source (Starcaller's staff)

>Best armor (Thulecite crowns)

>Item duplication (Construction and deconstruction staves)

>Light and speed (Magiluminessence) 

>Tons upon Tons of nightmare fuel for all the many items that use it

>More gold than anyone could possibly use via an excessive amount of wires

 

Gonna be honest, if your definition of "Novelty" amounts to "anything that isn't strictly required for the player's survival", then I don't think we're going to really get anywhere. 

My definition of novelty is more about having options available, somedays I may want to make a ruins trip, another day pig farm, Bernie and Meat effigy legion(many rabbits are dying), bees, or even a lazy spider night. The strictly required for survival end is more to highlight what this ruins start is focusing on and disregarding, there's intent. Ruin rushers know what they like and are going for it, but they also aren't filling the fridge or generating logs at the same time.

But I don't see the distinction as best being important when passing with B/C armor or light sources is more than good enough and frees up time for other tasks, the game rarely pressures you enough to be relevant.

 

[Theukon-dos]

25 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

My definition of novelty is more about having options available, somedays I may want to make a ruins trip, another day pig farm, Bernie and Meat effigy legion(many rabbits are dying), bees, or even a lazy spider night. The strictly required for survival end is more to highlight what this ruins start is focusing on and disregarding, there's intent. Ruin rushers know what they like and are going for it, but they also aren't filling the fridge or generating logs at the same time.

But I don't see the distinction as best being important when passing with B/C armor or light sources is more than good enough and frees up time for other tasks, the game rarely pressures you enough to be relevant.

 

My definition of novelty is "An action that provides little value beyond the enjoyment of doing so in and of itself".

 

Yes, you don't "need" most ruins gear. But it's still extremely helpful. Starcaller staves make it easy to fight raid bosses long into the night, thulecite crowns are twice as effective as football helmets without taking the shield into account, ect ect. 

Salt Boxes or Knobbly Knuts don't provide any significant advantage relative to the amount of effort they take. Yes, they can help. But the amount they help isn't much, so why even bother in the first place?

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

My definition of novelty is "An action that provides little value beyond the enjoyment of doing so in and of itself".

 

Yes, you don't "need" most ruins gear. But it's still extremely helpful. Starcaller staves make it easy to fight raid bosses long into the night, thulecite crowns are twice as effective as football helmets without taking the shield into account, ect ect. 

Salt Boxes or Knobbly Knuts don't provide any significant advantage relative to the amount of effort they take. Yes, they can help. But the amount they help isn't much, so why even bother in the first place?

Because, everything in the game has an “intended” difficulty level. It’s easier to get Salt Boxes & Knobby Trees than it is to prepare for and complete a Ruins rush. My issue with the game is that somethings “intended difficulty level” is too much, whilst other things aren’t enough..

It is much much harder to “Successfully” fight a horde of Moon Quay pirates trying to Raid your boat, then it is to fight the newer mob Deadly Brightshades, With Brightshades they’re a stationary mob that doesn’t move.. and you have plenty of room to dodge and kite, with Moon Quay Pirates (and also with Water Logged Spiders) there are Too Many Enemies attack the player on this tiny little platform with limited maneuverability.

Therefore on a scale of intended  difficulty 

Moon Quay pirate raids are significantly harder to deal with then Brightshades.

Same as how it’s significantly easier to get salt boxes and knobby trees then it is to storm the ruins successfully.

[_zwb]

The ocean content needs one of these changes: Remove the ocean completely OR Unpatch the flying boat bug.

 

Jokes aside, I do wish the flying boat bug gets added as a feature, for the endless possibilities and player creativity flow.

[Theukon-dos]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because, everything in the game has an “intended” difficulty level. It’s easier to get Salt Boxes & Knobby Trees than it is to prepare for and complete a Ruins rush. My issue with the game is that somethings “intended difficulty level” is too much, whilst other things aren’t enough..

It is much much harder to “Successfully” fight a horde of Moon Quay pirates trying to Raid your boat, then it is to fight the newer mob Deadly Brightshades, With Brightshades they’re a stationary mob that doesn’t move.. and you have plenty of room to dodge and kite, with Moon Quay Pirates (and also with Water Logged Spiders) there are Too Many Enemies attack the player on this tiny little platform with limited maneuverability.

Therefore on a scale of intended  difficulty 

Moon Quay pirate raids are significantly harder to deal with then Brightshades.

Same as how it’s significantly easier to get salt boxes and knobby trees then it is to storm the ruins successfully.

Mike, no. Just no. 

[bloopah]

I lost track of who has which opinion. All I know for sure is that mainland content doesn't have to be gimped to make the ocean worthwhile. I would just add a different variety of biomes that are larger than just a small spot on the map and expand the existing biomes to have things for people to return there that aren't just Knobbly Nuts or Salt for Warly, as well as to house the "throwaway" mobs like Gnarwail. It would be some of the easier and definetly less controversial changes to oceans.

[Antynomity]

3 hours ago, bloopah said:

I lost track of who has which opinion. All I know for sure is that mainland content doesn't have to be gimped to make the ocean worthwhile. I would just add a different variety of biomes that are larger than just a small spot on the map and expand the existing biomes to have things for people to return there that aren't just Knobbly Nuts or Salt for Warly, as well as to house the "throwaway" mobs like Gnarwail. It would be some of the easier and definetly less controversial changes to oceans.

You can't really have the ocean ever be good if mainland is as good as it is currently item wise, I think that a lot of the biomes in the game just need a complete re-do at this point but I don't think it'd be a bad thing to make ocean stuff more appealable armor wise weapon wise etc at least early game than some mainland options unlike now where everything is an afterthought, I do agree that larger biomes on the ocean should be a thing, heck I even think that all the current setpieces maybe outside of a few of them (pearl's island, salt biome) should just have a lower amount of them in the world but take up a pretty massive amount of water.

[bloopah]

3 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

You can't really have the ocean ever be good if mainland is as good as it is currently item wise, I think that a lot of the biomes in the game just need a complete re-do at this point but I don't think it'd be a bad thing to make ocean stuff more appealable armor wise weapon wise etc at least early game than some mainland options unlike now where everything is an afterthought, I do agree that larger biomes on the ocean should be a thing, heck I even think that all the current setpieces maybe outside of a few of them (pearl's island, salt biome) should just have a lower amount of them in the world but take up a pretty massive amount of water.

What's with the idea that the mainland has to give in order for oceans to be good? Just because there's a lot on there doesn't mean there has to be as little outside of there as we have now.

[Antynomity]

1 minute ago, bloopah said:

What's with the idea that the mainland has to give in order for oceans to be good? Just because there's a lot on there doesn't mean there has to be as little outside of there as we have now.

There's no incentive and I doubt even if they made better stuff on the ocean people would go there just because of how easy it is to get masses upon masses of pigskin for helmets and hambats.

[bloopah]

Just now, yourAnty said:

There's no incentive and I doubt even if they made better stuff on the ocean people would go there just because of how easy it is to get masses upon masses of pigskin for helmets and hambats.

Do you really think people will only go there if the stuff added was something that was removed from somewhere else or is so abundant that it overshadows every other method of obtaining it? Last time I checked Palmcone Trees are objectively better than Evergreens or Birchnuts purely for gathering logs, but despite this very few people want to search for Moon Quay, largely due to not wanting to sail for three hours to find it.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, bloopah said:

What's with the idea that the mainland haves to give in order for oceans to be good? Just because there's a lot on there doesn't mean there has to be as little outside of there as we have now.

The problem with the mainland as it stands right NOW is that you never under no circumstances need to actually go out into the water.. you can play the game living just fine on the Mainland while Boating & Ocean Content remains entirely optional. And with the Sole Exception of advancing the game into Post CC content, there’s really no “point” to the Ocean.

UNLIKE Don’t Starve Shipwrecked where you had limited resources of a particular type on a land mass which absolutely required that you build a boat and go venture out to sea to find more land masses and resources that without- would End your Survival.

Hamlet equally had ponds you couldn’t cross & get to areas of the game without at least “temporarily” building a small floating vessel to paddle across.

Klei Created the Grass Raft for DST which would had been the “Temporary” vessel like Hamlet, but there’s no Mandatory resource on the other side of a pond that REQUIRES you to build that grass raft.

Nope: DSTs ocean content is completely Optional.

Now then.. let’s pretend that Beefalo were on their own land mass separate from the Mainland, Pig King was on his own land mass, The Desert Oasis was on its own Land Mass, and the actual Desert with the Sand Storm and Antlion fight was on its Own Land mass- 

You would need to set sail to tame a Beefalo, you would need to sail again to get the Desert Goggles Blueprint, you would need to sail yet again to go to the sandstorm desert to use said Goggles in.

But because everything is currently on the Mainland.. Boating is entirely optional.

Since The Lunar Grotto is Canon under the ocean thanks to Lunar Island falling into the Ocean, Klei could’ve put a small island out at sea with a plugged sinkhole that once mined, reveals the portal TO the Lunar Grotto.. instead: Everything’s connected to the Mainland and Ocean Content severally suffers because of it.

[Antynomity]

10 minutes ago, bloopah said:

Do you really think people will only go there if the stuff added was something that was removed from somewhere else or is so abundant that it overshadows every other method of obtaining it? Last time I checked Palmcone Trees are objectively better than Evergreens or Birchnuts purely for gathering logs, but despite this very few people want to search for Moon Quay, largely due to not wanting to sail for three hours to find it.

Or maybe it's because it's hard  to amass them? You need a LOT of moon gleams or waiting to get a worthwhile amount.

[bloopah]

16 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

Or maybe it's because it's hard  to amass them? You need a LOT of moon gleams or waiting to get a worthwhile amount.

I honestly don't think the wait for Palmcone Sprouts is as bad as the wait involved in finding the damn island they're placed on. If you already have the patience to look for the Moon Quay then might as well get the abundant stuff from it, right?

[Just Mactusk]

blue magical orbs make up the portal at moon quay

[Theukon-dos]

3 hours ago, bloopah said:

What's with the idea that the mainland has to give in order for oceans to be good? Just because there's a lot on there doesn't mean there has to be as little outside of there as we have now.

As I said in my own post, DST is a game about problems and solutions, but every mainland problem already has solutions. So for the ocean's content to benefit players on the mainland, it either needs new problems the ocean can solve, or the existing solutions need tuned down to make way for new solutions.

 

There is a very slight bit of wiggle room here. Klei has toyed with side-grades a bit with the salt box and Knobly Knuts; to varying degrees of success. And there are a few niches that could still be filled, such as monkey tails serving as transplantable reeds. But overall, there just isn't room for ocean content, as Klei needs to make some. 

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, yourAnty said:

There's no incentive and I doubt even if they made better stuff on the ocean people would go there just because of how easy it is to get masses upon masses of pigskin for helmets and hambats.

Sure you can amass pigskins for helmets and ham bats on land, that doesn't stop me from sailing.  What does stop me from sailing is that I need to come back to land for those same pig skins because there isn't a foot ball helmet or hambat equivalent from the water.  Combat is part of the ocean, but there is no real source of weapons or armor there.  Boat patches require bee stingers, and where do you get those?  NOT on the ocean lol

I don't think people need to be forced out to the ocean, I think it fits fine like caves, ruins, and most bosses in the game - its an option.  But is the ocean an option?  Its missing so many staples that I don't think it really is.  Not for a fulfilling play through anyway.  It doesn't need new or unique things even, just things.  Cookie cutter cap is only 70% armor and before CK there is no weapon at all.  There is no way to get grass / twigs / stone / flint / gold in any real quantity.

The problem isn't that the land provides everything, it can keep providing everything just as it has - it is the mainland afterall.  The problem specifically is that the ocean just isn't really sustainable, so you need that land base and resource production.  Since you need to have the land base anyway, the ocean becomes a couple fetch quests instead of letting that boat life thrive.  Compare this to caves where you could start and play an entire game in the caves without issue.

[D_Good_Fellow]

11 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I don't think people need to be forced out to the ocean, I think it fits fine like caves, ruins, and most bosses in the game - its an option. 

I feel like it's less of a need to be "forced" into the ocean and more of needing to be incentivized more directly? 

Consider the caves example. I didn't really start exploring them until I survived all the way to summer, where the overheating mechanic prompted me to give it a shot. Since summer is the last standard season, this conveniently lined up with me having played enough that I was ready for the caves. I didn't need to be "forced" off the surface, but having a clear problem that the caves could immediately solve definitely helped.

By comparison, the ocean feels like this high-risk, low-return investment I have to make to eventually get to endgame content. Sure I'd like salt boxes and docks and such, but the those rewards feels abstract and distant. I feel like I'm going to have to get good at seafaring before I see any benefit from it at all, which makes learning it extremely frustrating. I'm sure I'll get around to it, but it's simply not as enticing as caves/ruins/bosses, which engage me immediately and make learning how to take them on fun. I just think that with a mechanic as involved as boating, there needs to be a clear reward for the player for them to want to engage with it further. 

But you're right; at the end of the day, those incentives are totally useless if you get on the boat and suddenly can't survive at sea.

[veridianne]

klei pleeease please give us the shipwrecked fog... dont make me sail around the entire world map every time I have to pop by for lunar groceries just cause I based at an unfortunate place AEYAUGH

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, veridianne said:

klei pleeease please give us the shipwrecked fog... dont make me sail around the entire world map every time I have to pop by for lunar groceries just cause I based at an unfortunate place AEYAUGH

Alternatively.. just give me settings to change world generation prior to creating the world to break the mainland up into a bunch of smaller archipelagos.

I don’t care who dislikes this suggestion because if I can toggle things like Branch Loop Never, Branch Loop Always, Etc.. this should’ve been an option the very day boats were added to DST.

However (and rather unfortunately..) Klei didn’t design the game with the thought they’d add boats to it later in mind.. so even if they DID give me world Gen settings to bust the main land apart into archipelagos- they would still need to put in the Extra attention to detail to ensure that “enough” Resources spawn on each island to get me back out onto the ocean.

Basically this means Twigs, Grass, Logs or an alternative Variant to these items would need to be made present in existing biomes (at least if the world is set to archipelago)

Otherwise: it’s just going to make boating that much worse.

But fog that warps you from one side of the map to the other isn’t going to ever solve My issues with the Ocean, I’m gonna need a little more care and love that goes into it than that.

Instead of trying to design a game, Klei needs to instead put their heart & soul into what they think would make the ocean a more exciting place to drift through on a boat.