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It is time to nerf BBQ


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On 5/18/2023 at 3:33 PM, cpy said:

Reduce BBQ morale to +1 and done. Problem solved.

Little bit better then fried dirt? Oh man, you never eat barbeque 

 

On 5/18/2023 at 5:52 PM, tuxii said:

Berry Sludge is a bigger issue.

Mostly because it never rot. Think it is an issue

On 5/21/2023 at 9:19 PM, Henlikuoth said:

I would add that this constant killing of critters by drowning exhibits animal cruelty.

No, not agree, there is no any other normal way (except death from starvation)

 

On 5/21/2023 at 9:19 PM, Henlikuoth said:

something like a butchery

Yes, agree

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On 5/21/2023 at 2:19 PM, Henlikuoth said:

I would add that this constant killing of critters by drowning exhibits animal cruelty.

They are pixels on the screen and electrons on your CPU, don't let their rendered eyes fool your brain into thinking they can feel cruelty

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On 5/9/2023 at 12:47 AM, fifty_ducks said:

The 20-30 cycle warm up period for BBQ to come online is not a justification for such a crazy morale boost to its similar tiered food. 

 

On 5/18/2023 at 7:22 PM, tuxii said:

Berry Sludge is a bigger issue.  It is too easy to set up a pip-planted Sleet Wheat and Bristle Berry farm and have endless free high quality never-spoiling Berry Sludge.

There are too many food tiers. Grisly, Terrible, Poor, Standard, Good, Great, Superb and Ambrosial. That is 8 food tiers. Only Gourmet Dupes, which have a combined Terrible and Grisly tier give proportionate food morale in my opinion.

In my opinion, food morale table should go, -1, 0, 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 for normal dupes as it the case currently with Gourmet dupes. This will bring barbecue and berry sludge down to +4 morale which is much for proportionate. This will also make Frost Burger useful for late game runs.

I will also do some other reorganization. Since under this system there is no terrible food tier, Mush Fry and Lice-loaf will be moved up-to Poor (0). 

Frost Buns and Tofu will be moved up to Good (+4). This is because Frost Buns and Tofu as hard to produce as barbecue.  

Curried Beans will be moved up-to Ambrosial(+16). This is keeping in mind how difficult it is to produce them. This will give another option to those looking to produce the highest quality food.

As for Gourmet Dupes, Grisly and Poor will both give a morale penalty of -1. Their morale table would go -1, -1, 0, 1, 4, 8, 12, capping their food morale at +12.

 

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So making gourmet the default behaviour would also motivate to invest in dupe entertainment to compensate for the lower moral gain based on food consumption.

Personally, I would like to see some mechanic like "reduced morale gain" up to moral penelty, if dupes eat the same every day. This requires some kind of food preferences rotation mechanism, though.

Easiest way to implement might be that each dupe randomly selects any kind of food it wants to eat. If it is able to get this one, the moral bonus of the best food obtainable in the colony is applied. If not, it selects as usual and the moral bonus of the food consumed serves as a baseline. The dupe gets a status "boring food" until the next meal and if it can't get what it wants again, the moral bonus of the food gets reduced about one tire. This repeats until you have a penalty.

This depends heavily on RNG but gives an incentive to invest in food variety as well as dupe entertainment to compensate bad RNG.

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Just giving each dupe a "Favorite Food" trait like their stress and overjoyed reaction traits would fix everything, I think.

If a Dupe eats their Favorite Food, no matter what it is, they get max morale bonus for the day. If not, they can't get more than half the current max bonus from whatever they eat.

Favorite Food would pick from the Good or better lists, although it could be funny to have the rare dupe who -wants- meal Lice every day. :)

But having a colony of dupes with a bunch of different Favorite Foods would encourage us to farm a variety for them, and make farming a lot more interesting.

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I don't really see the problem? Bbq and cooked seafood om their own don't give lots of morale anymore. Remember when bbq was the soul food?

Tbh, there are so many different ways to make food in the game, food by it own is a none-issue. My current 20 dupes colony gets its meat from critters dying of old age. Combined with a small dedicated bristle berry farm, bristle berry coming from 2 drecko ranches, wild sleet wheat, tons of eggs and a dedicated pincha peppernut farm, I have little issues.

 

I don't see why bbq is in that regard a problem. Yes, you can mass it, actively slaughter critters etc for a heap of food, but you know... Why though? There is whole buffet, no need for a dedicated meat table.

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These sound like a lot of great ideas for mods, and not something to inflict by mandate on the player population at large.

Oh, and for the guy complaining about animal cruelty for drowning? What you're really advocating for is normalizing pokeshell execution pits. This is a game where you send your innocent child workers magma-diving so you can get new shinier metal. A little drowning isn't that cruel. 

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I also don't understand why some people say they "cannot understand the problem." 

The problems were clearly laid out in this and other threads.

In short:

- certain types of food, especially BBQ and Berry Sludge, basically invalidate most other foods

- this narrows down the choice of food to only 1 or 2

- no big incentives to try other foods, because the + 8 morale suffices already mostly

- a loss of variety and gameplay complexity, negating a more sophisticated cooking system/economy

Some suggestions to tackle these problems were already made: reducing the morale bonus of said foods, adding a deeper food system with more buffs/debuffs, adding other cooking buildings, etc.

Regarding the drowning complaint, I can only reiterate that it does display a form of violence that does not suit the overall style of ONI (don't tell me you don't understand this). ONI has a certain design, art style, and gameplay approach. It is not a shooter or horror game. Drowning should be limited to accidental drowning. As I said already before, a new building like a butchery that requires certain ingredients might help with this problem. 

As I mentioned already in another post, I believe ONI should implement a varied diet system, meaning dupes are required to vary their diet to maintain certain buffs and avoid certain debuffs.

I am already happy that more recipes were added in the latest game update. However, the food and cooking system should be expanded much long-term. 

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10 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

- no big incentives to try other foods, because the + 8 morale suffices already mostly

they require vastly different industries to maintain sustainably and that in of itself is something that drives me to try different food sources pretty much every save. the innate joy in creation.

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2 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

I also don't understand why some people say they "cannot understand the problem." 

The problems were clearly laid out in this and other threads.

In short:

- certain types of food, especially BBQ and Berry Sludge, basically invalidate most other foods

- this narrows down the choice of food to only 1 or 2

- no big incentives to try other foods, because the + 8 morale suffices already mostly

- a loss of variety and gameplay complexity, negating a more sophisticated cooking system/economy

I didn't know I only had a choice of 2 foods, sorry.

My duplicants don't even care about any morale from their diet and are still overjoyed. The only time my giant mealwood farm got invalidated was when pips planted a thousand arbor trees and the game could not keep up with calculations for plants leaving a hundred of dupes starving.

Nobody is forcing you to use only BBQ or Berry Sludge maybe unless you've chosen high difficulty settings for morale requirements in which case you'd limit your foods by choice.

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As mentioned already by various people throughout this and other threads, once you established a permanent BBQ or Berry Sludge production, there is no strong reason anymore to try any other foods because these two provide already everything and are relatively easy to produce.

I also feel an "innate joy" by trying and watching other foods and plants. However, this is not rewarded in-game. There is no particular bonus or effect that would improve the efficiency of the dupes, or something similar. 

The result is then that most other food types are simply ignored and eventually forgotten, resulting in the problems mentioned already.

Even if no one is "forcing" anyone in the game directly to only do BBQ and Berry Sludge, there is still an indirect forcing or compelling, simply because BBQ/Berry Sludge are often the best and easiest solution. 

I still believe that a varied diet system might be the best solution long-term. 

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10 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

Even if no one is "forcing" anyone in the game directly to only do BBQ and Berry Sludge, there is still an indirect forcing or compelling, simply because BBQ/Berry Sludge are often the best and easiest solution. 

quite simply, i do not experience this. i find most foods fun in this game to find sustainability with and this has remained true for all of my 11k hours in the video game

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26 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

I also feel an "innate joy" by trying and watching other foods and plants. However, this is not rewarded in-game. There is no particular bonus or effect that would improve the efficiency of the dupes, or something similar. 

And what about the Spice Grinder? Does it not reward you for growing a variety of foods with bonuses improving efficiency of dupes? I think that was it's exact purpose however it is missed in the conversation somehow. This and the recreational buildings that consume different plants are not incentives enough to get more than BBQ and Berry Sludge?

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Just now, Knurek said:

And what about the Spice Grinder? Does it not reward you for growing a variety of foods with bonuses improving efficiency of dupes? I think that was it's exact purpose however it is missed in the conversation somehow. This and the recreational buildings that consume different plants are not incentives enough to get more than BBQ and Berry Sludge?

I agree with this one. It gives an incentive, yes. 

But the overall idea here seems to be that the cooking/food system needs to be expanded more.

Various reasons have been proposed here. 

Actually, I am a fan of cooking different foods and seeing different plants growing. 

The incentives to do so, then, should be both more compelling and rewarding. 

Again, a varied diet system might be a good possibility. 

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5 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

- certain types of food, especially BBQ and Berry Sludge, basically invalidate most other foods

 

There's always going to be a "best food".  Nerf BBQ and players looking for the path of least resistance are going to turn to cooked fish or whatever the new meta becomes.

 

16 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

Actually, I am a fan of cooking different foods and seeing different plants growing. 

The incentives to do so, then, should be both more compelling and rewarding. 

If you enjoy doing something, then that's all the incentive you need to keep doing it.

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8 minutes ago, goboking said:

There's always going to be a "best food".  Nerf BBQ and players looking for the path of least resistance are going to turn to cooked fish or whatever the new meta becomes.

Not necessarily. If a varied diet system is properly developed, then the dupes must eat variations of food. Then you don't have a "best" food. A varied diet like that sometimes might even require a dupe to eat good old liceloaf. All this should be combined with certain buffs and the avoidance of certain debuffs.

8 minutes ago, goboking said:

If you enjoy doing something, then that's all the incentive you need to keep doing it.

Sure, enjoying something is already a reward in itself. However, in a video game that should be connected to gameplay bonuses. That is how video games usually work. Basing everything on personal feelings and enjoyment alone might not be enough forever, especially because people "feel" differently about certain things. 

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18 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

Sure, enjoying something is already a reward in itself. However, in a video game that should be connected to gameplay bonuses. That is how video games usually work. Basing everything on personal feelings and enjoyment alone might not be enough forever, especially because people "feel" differently about certain things. 

I don't understand. There is no food that offers no gameplay bonus or otherwise potential for the player to work with. Most, if not all, are capable of being sustainably farmed with enough effort. I don't really understand how this isn't enough.

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31 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I don't understand. There is no food that offers no gameplay bonus or otherwise potential for the player to work with. Most, if not all, are capable of being sustainably farmed with enough effort. I don't really understand how this isn't enough.

This was already explained before. It is not about a single morale bonus of a single food type. It is about invalidation of many food types and not enough incentives to use more food types, i.e. something like a varied diet. 

On top of that, it was suggested that a varied diet offers other buffs that are not yet in the game and that only apply if a dupe follows this so-called varied diet. This is something that would have to be worked out by Klei. But I would be happy already with only a few smaller buffs for a varied diet.

I believe these points and arguments became clear enough in the discussion before. 

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17 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

This was already explained before. It is not about a single morale bonus of a single food type. It is about invalidation of many food types and not enough incentives to use more food types, i.e. something like a varied diet. 

 

There's a +8 difference in morale between barbecue and mixed berry pie, yet many players are perfectly content to stick with barbecue.  What bonus do you think it's going to take to finally push these players from their meat-based comfort zone into using the gas range?  I can't see it being done with the carrot, which leaves a stick.  Veteran players of games as old as ONI don't tend to respond well to sticks.

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1 minute ago, goboking said:

There's a +8 difference in morale between barbecue and mixed berry pie, yet many players are perfectly content to stick with barbecue.  What bonus do you think it's going to take to finally push these players from their meat-based comfort zone into using the gas range?  I can't see it being done with the carrot, which leaves a stick.  Veteran players of games as old as ONI don't tend to respond well to sticks.

Without going into detail yet, basically this:

A required varied diet that a dupe must follow to avoid certain (negative) debuffs; conversely, this varied diet should provide certain (positive) buffs, which can be anything like bonuses to attributes, speed bonus, etc., there are plenty of options for buffs; a simple difference in the morale boost is not enough

So, here you have already two compelling reasons for a varied diet: 

1. The avoidance of debuffs

2. The application of buffs

If Klei does not want to punish players by applying debuffs if they don't follow a varied diet, the minimum is that those players would miss out on the buffs. And "buff" here means more than just a simple difference in the morale boost.

Even better, this could be tied to the food difficulty setting. On maximum difficulty setting, more debuffs as well as buffs could be applied. On the default setting only the buffs under the condition the dupe follows a varied diet.

Of course, there are plenty of options and possibilities. Here I am outlining just the primary idea.

In fact, the possibilities are almost endless. Klei could introduce certain decorative plants that must be created from plants that must be grown first. This is not related to food consumption, but is just another way to incentivize growing different plants and putting effort into all that. 

But I believe it should go into this direction.

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7 hours ago, goboking said:

There's always going to be a "best food".  Nerf BBQ and players looking for the path of least resistance are going to turn to cooked fish or whatever the new meta becomes.

Not if each Dupe has a different "Favorite Food".

Then "Best Food" becomes "Variety".

Klei doesn't -have- to add anything to the game. We're just suggesting things we think would be fun/interesting.

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11 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

As mentioned already by various people throughout this and other threads, once you established a permanent BBQ or Berry Sludge production, there is no strong reason anymore to try any other foods because these two provide already everything and are relatively easy to produce.

I also feel an "innate joy" by trying and watching other foods and plants. However, this is not rewarded in-game. There is no particular bonus or effect that would improve the efficiency of the dupes, or something similar. 

The result is then that most other food types are simply ignored and eventually forgotten, resulting in the problems mentioned already.

Even if no one is "forcing" anyone in the game directly to only do BBQ and Berry Sludge, there is still an indirect forcing or compelling, simply because BBQ/Berry Sludge are often the best and easiest solution. 

I still believe that a varied diet system might be the best solution long-term. 

Here is the thing though: just because something gives the most output or the most efficient output, does not mean you need to chose for that option.

I have never, ever focussed on a bbq farm. Simply because I did not need to. Playing the game usually gives enough food resources by itself. I have a small dedicated bristle  berry farm, overplanted glossy drecko ranches which also give bristle berry through surplus. The hundreds of wild sleet wheat plants around the asteroid give more than enough. Finally, I have a water tank filled with packu's which I never need to look at and give from time to time fish fillet. Finally I have a dedicated pincha peppernut farm giving me peppernuts for both the espress machine and food. bbq? I get that from critters dying of old age! I get out of that the following foods: stuffed berry, pepperbread, surf n turf. Why would I use bbq if I can combine it with cooked seafood to get higher qualiity food out of it?

 

And those high quality foods then allow to trigger more overjoyed traits! I mean, Franky going onto a sparkle streak is just the best thing in dupe's day, just watching him zoom from one end of the asteroid to the other and giving his buff to other duplicants is one hell of a worktime boost.

And the best thing, I do not have to overthink it! I don't need to use exploits, I don't need any extreme contraption or dozens of ranches. Infact, this produces so much food I had to build a cooling unit to keep the abundance of food from spoiling.

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3 hours ago, Farsight said:

Not if each Dupe has a different "Favorite Food".

Then "Best Food" becomes "Variety".

Not really. That would allow players to stick to printing only the dupes that love any low grade food that they have plenty. Then it becomes the best food and is available right from the start.

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That's why I suggested that this changes from time to time based on RNG. If it wouldn't change, it would be like the allergic dupe I never print.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mind you, I would also welcome some changes on this and the disease system in general but that's an other topic.

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