More feedback on the Wilson Rework (Also the pig guy)

[Theukon-dos]

Well, another day, another character refresh. The final one, even (unless you want to re-visit some of the older refreshes like Willow and Winona (Please Do)). And with that, it feels quite important to get feedback on the thing. Also the pig guy, but we'll get to him later.

 

First: General direction.

I'm quite happy with this rework as a concept. A skill tree that persists between worlds isn't something I expected, but I think it fits the character surprisingly well. Assuming Wilson is supposed to still have his role as a "newb player", I think having some lite perks that unlock as the player plays the game more is pretty cool. Though for the perks themselves... we'll get to that. 

I do think it might be a bit too easy to re-spec your perks, sense you can do it indefinitely, for free once you get a wardrobe. But that does also encourage experimentation, so I'm cool with it. 

 

Category 1: Beard

Yes I know this is the third category. But I want to cover torch last so let's just go in reverse. 

Beard growth is alright. Makes sense and has it's uses. Though Beard Hair is one of those items that you don't really need. The only things you can craft with it are Meat Effigies and Bernie (also Beefalo Wool but we'll get to that). So I do like it, but I'd also like to see more beard-hair crafts to make it a bit more practical.

Beard Insulation is great! In winter! Outside of that, this perk line litterally doesn't do anything, so you have no reason to just switch off of it. Personally, I think it would be great if instead of increasing the insulation of the beard, this line let the beard protect from other seasonal dangers. 

T1 increases the beard's insulation as normal

T2 Gives the beard both winter and summer insulation.

T3 Gives the beard scaling wetness resistance. 

With this, the perk line suddenly becomes useful in 3/4 seasons instead of 1/4. And there are still use cases that I think would be nice to have this line in during summer. 

And finally, the capstone of this perk catagory is... snack storage. Personally, I'm a bit mixed on this. On one hand, I'm the kind of guy who would love any inventory-increasing perk. But at the same time, only having 3-extra slots max and said slots only being able to hold food just makes it feel a bit niche to me. Especially sense you need to invest 3 other inspiration into the beard to unlock it. Others have suggested that the beard should slow down spoilage, which I agree with. But I think a more interests perk for it would be giving Wilson the ability to eat anything stored in his beard autonomously. Fill that face mop up with thick, sickly honey and lap it up for months on end without ever worrying about your hunger bar. And I'm sorry to whoever I made sick with the mental image of drinking beard honey. 

 

Catagory 2: Alchemy. 

Probably the most useful of the perk trees. Being able to transmute common items from one another is pretty cool. Though you can make an argument that it makes Wilson into a swap character. Though as someone thuroughly against those, I'm not too worried about it. There are only like, 3 recipes I'd really worry about in that regard, and none of them are nearly as centralizing as Winona's Catapults or Warly's dishes. 

First off, transmute Icky is probably my favorite of the 3 catagories. Morsels to meat has it's uses, and meat to morsels is great if your recipe doesn't have a high meat requirement. Beard hair to Beefalo wool is also a nice recipe. Still not the most useful resource, but massively expands the amount of recipes you can use your own beard hair for. The same doesn't go for Beefalo Wool to Beard hair though. Less efficient; and as covered in the beard section; it's just not that useful. One might also argue that it undercuts Wilson's own beard-growing abilities sense you can quite easily get a good stack of Beefalo wool in a single night. And then rot to manure... has a niche atleast with farm fertilizer. Though I think poop is common enough that I wouldn't really worry about it. And a hounds tooth to a bone shard is pretty good in and of itself. 

For this section, I'd personally replace Beefalo Wool -> Beard hair with Monster Meat -> Meat, and Rot -> Manure with Rot -> Rotten Eggs. Just to make the resources he can craft a bit broader and more useful.

 

Transmute Gems honestly feels like it was only included so "veteran" players feel like Wilson has some late-game relevance, which I'm not opposed to. Crafting green gems and iridecent gems are 2 of the three recipes I'm worried about, but not that much. Otherwise the only real problem with this line is that the early gem economy is really... weird. 

Blue Gems and Red Gems are generally potrayed as equal in value. And even if you don't think so, the general consensus seems to be that red gems are more valuable than blue. And why is 3 blue gems to a purple gem an option? The only situation I see that being useful in is if you somehow manage to get 3 blue gems naturally without any reds. Because that's 9 red gems to a purple gem. But if you have those, then you can just use 6 red to make 2 blue, and combine those 2 blue with 2 more red to make 2 purple while still having a red gem left over. 

For this path, just make the Red and Blue gems 2/1 both ways. And either get rid of the purple gem recipe, or let players craft purple gems with nightmare fuel instead. That could certainly open some options up. 

 

And I don't really have anything to say about Ore transmutation. Rocks to flint is pretty bad, and marble is the third craft that I'm worried about. But otherwise all I'd really want to see is the ability to craft Nitre. 

 

 

Section 3: Torch. 

As I said earlier, this was the last section I wanted to talk about. (*Shoves affinity in a bush*), and the reason for this is because... it's pretty bad. 

Why? Because even with full investment, a lantern still out-performs a torch. A Fully-fueled lantern has a higher light radius than a torch with 3 levels of radius boost. Lasts longer than a torch with 3 levels of duration boost. And I can't think of any situation where I'd want to throw my light away instead of just dropping it at my feet. The only time I could ever see myself getting any of these perks are if I was playing in a caveless server, or just grabbing them when I first spawn in and replacing them first chance I get. You might be able to salvage this by making it effect all light sources. But honestly it might just be a lost cause.

Section -1: Affinity. 

No real comments on this sense I haven't played with it. Locking a perk behind the Ancient Fuelweaver is pretty cool I'll admit. Though I question why 3 Pure Terror make only 2 nightmare fuel. 

 

Overall, I think Wilson's rework is pretty cool, I just want to see it get a slight bit more and to do something with the torch section. 

 

Nightmare Pig:

I'll admit, I like this bosses design, and all the art and animations surrounding it are awesome. But it also confuses me massively. 

It's a boss version of an existing monster. 

It's gated behind the ruins. 

It's one of the easiest raid bosses we have.

It drops better versions of existing materials.

It unlocks some of the best equipment in the game.

It barely drops enough to make a single piece of said equipment. 

And to top it all off, the fight itself looks straight out of Uncompromising Mode with mechanics such as "knockback" and "Combo Attacks". (affectionate)

I'm genuinely baffled by what role this guy's supposed to play. The items it gates are definitely ruins-tier. But everything else about it just screams baby's first raid boss. And I absolutely hate to say it, but this all feels like a mod. Not in the awful "This doesn't fit the game lmao" sense. no, not that horrible excuse. It feels like a mod in the "This is a stronger version of a mob that drops a stronger version of existing resources and is arbitrarily gated for reasons". It's all just baffling to me. 

I'll get over those feelings though. But in the mean time, I do think there's a happy middle ground we can reach with unlocking the boss.

Instead of gating it behind the ruins, gate it behind the Lunar Island.  

Add a tool to lunar that can cause the pillars to resonate (The Pick/Axe can still do it, so that it still gets a use and rewards people who go to the ruins early). Lunar is far enough out of the way that people can't rush the Nightmare Werepig day 2, but still easy/safe enough that the boss being fairly weak makes sense. That combined with the fact that the Nightmare Werepig would only drop the bare minimum needed to craft it's equipment, and I think it would be in a pretty good spot balance and progression wise. 

Also start calling the thing by it's internal name "Daywalker". That honestly sounds way cooler and more mysterious than just "Nightmare Werepig". 

That's about all I have to say on the matter. I am definitely happy with this update overall, even if there are some problems I have. 

[Creatorofswamps]

Good and true words. Oslbenno about the torch and the location and method of opening boss

[goblinball]

Extremely well-written deconstruction of the beta, I agree with all of these points (although I also wish the inspiration points had a different method of obtainment instead of just the passage of time, like what other players have said).

[ansuman]

torch perk is just too situational and doesn't affects the gameplay in anyway. The final torch perk is also totally gimmick. It should at least effect miners hat to be somewhat useful.

[Deerclops Mika]

I agree with most of what you said. But I also think that Nightmare Pig shouldn't be spawning on the moon, as he often says that he found some kind of crack in the dark world. Also, as far as I remember, the play says that Charlie wants to restore the shadows (or Them) to their former strength. So, what if the Nightmare Pig spawned in a random location after the player played all the cutscenes (since we don't get any rewards for that right now)? I also agree that it is worth adding a moon shard pickaxe for example, so that the boss can be defeated without caves.

[Wildbaldie]

pig should drop more stuff to make armor

 

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Deerclops Mika said:

I agree with most of what you said. But I also think that Nightmare Pig shouldn't be spawning on the moon, as he often says that he found some kind of crack in the dark world. Also, as far as I remember, the play says that Charlie wants to restore the shadows (or Them) to their former strength. So, what if the Nightmare Pig spawned in a random location after the player played all the cutscenes (since we don't get any rewards for that right now)? I also agree that it is worth adding a moon shard pickaxe for example, so that the boss can be defeated without caves.

Oh no, the pig itself wouldn't spawn on the moon. There'd be a new tool on the moon that can cause the pillars to reverberate, due to Moonglass' effectiveness against shadow.

[-Nick-]

Klei should add marble tiles under the werepig pillars. The structure looks so out of place and random. Atkeast with marble tiles would make it look more natural.

[maxwell_winters]

Very constructive feedback.

I think it is important to understand that the skill tree was added so that both newbies and advanced players can make their own Wilson build. This forum consists of experienced players, that's why they find some things underwhelming. They're just not meant for them. 

The torch section is entirely for the newbies and caveless servers. The beginners won't understand the possibilities of gems conversion but they would want a better torch. Experienced players won't invest in this branch even if it was extended into miner hats and lanterns because transmutations are more appealing to them. 

The beard storage is also for beginners to help them with inventory management at least a bit. I agree that Wilson needs more advantages for spring and summer. My biggest argument in favor of rework was that he was a good tutorial character for the vanilla DS who had an easier time surviving the harshest season at the time (winter). However, the game expanded far beyond that, and he fell behind without any perks for spring and summer. 

12 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Instead of gating it behind the ruins, gate it behind the Lunar Island.  

I completely agree. At first, I thought this boss gives a good armor to use during your first visit to the ruins. Then I found out about the pick/axe gate and now I see no point in killing him when I already have access to the thulecite gear. If they added a glass pickaxe to the Celestial Tab (which desperately needs more stuff), it would a good solution. I think Pick/Axe in general doesn't belong to the Ancient Tab because it's usability in the late game is very questionable but that's a discussion for another time.  

[BB Marioni]

maybe they can add a  glass pickaxe or shadow pickaxe that can be used to start the bossfight

[Theukon-dos]

6 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

The torch section is entirely for the newbies and caveless servers. The beginners won't understand the possibilities of gems conversion but they would want a better torch. Experienced players won't invest in this branch even if it was extended into miner hats and lanterns because transmutations are more appealing to them. 

See, I thought about that, and caveless servers are certainly a thing to consider. But as far as new players are concerned, honestly it just feels like more of a trap than anything. Instead of nudging players towards better light sources, it just increases their dependency on torches. Give Wilson the ability to transmute light bulbs, and you'd suddenly have a much stronger effect and a much better tutorial for new players. 

Also might just be me, but I'd 100% invest in torch perks if they also boosted lanterns and miners hats. 

6 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

The beard storage is also for beginners to help them with inventory management at least a bit. I agree that Wilson needs more advantages for spring and summer. My biggest argument in favor of rework was that he was a good tutorial character for the vanilla DS who had an easier time surviving the harshest season at the time (winter). However, the game expanded far beyond that, and he fell behind without any perks for spring and summer. 

Yeah, that's fair. Again, my problem wasn't so much that the perk existed, just that it felt really weird as a capstone perk. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

The torch section is entirely for the newbies and caveless servers. The beginners won't understand the possibilities of gems conversion but they would want a better torch. Experienced players won't invest in this branch even if it was extended into miner hats and lanterns because transmutations are more appealing to them

the problem is that you expend 6 points to have a not so noticeable effect when ot could be 1 or 2 points and fill the empty slots with other beginner friendly perks 

[maciu67]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:30 AM, Theukon-dos said:

Section 3: Torch.

Wasting six points on torch radius and durability when lantern and miner hat are much better not make sense, although torch toss is not bad. There should be more perks like that. Torch could be refuelable, then would be more competetive.

On 3/1/2023 at 6:30 AM, Theukon-dos said:

It's a boss version of an existing monster. 

Looks like elite enemy.

On 3/1/2023 at 6:30 AM, Theukon-dos said:

It drops better versions of existing materials

If we assume time is most important resource then I'm not so sure about that.

On 3/1/2023 at 6:30 AM, Theukon-dos said:

I'm genuinely baffled by what role this guy's supposed to play

I like to think he's Wilba's father but he can be just a regular pig that have (very) bad luck. I agree "daywalker" souds better than "Nightmare Werepig".

[maxwell_winters]

6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the problem is that you expend 6 points to have a not so noticeable effect when ot could be 1 or 2 points and fill the empty slots with other beginner friendly perks 

I'm not saying it shouldn't be buffed but I don't see a scenario where I would choose torch over alchemy no matter how strong the torch is. 

12 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Give Wilson the ability to transmute light bulbs, and you'd suddenly have a much stronger effect and a much better tutorial for new players. 

The lightbulbs are the main reason for newbies to get down to the caves. If they have an easy alternative, they will simply avoid this "dark and scary" place.