Can we talk about Woodie? Pretty please?

[Dextops]

53 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

in some reward sure but maxwell cant outclasse woodie in exploration or aoe damage.

you're right about aoe damage but exploration not so much. A beefalo is fast and gives the actual benefit of being able to interact with it's surroundings. And while most characters don't have aoe the mooses aoe is hindered a lot by his mechanics like slow recharge and not being allowed to bump into stuff. This makes it questionable to use and all around a pain in the ass. The reason we compare woodie to other characters is because all of his niches are filled by other characters and a regular wilson can usually do what he does if not better. I want a buff for woodie, or a change in mechanics cause currently he is lacking a lot

[ArubaroBeefalo]

41 minutes ago, Dextops said:

you're right about aoe damage but exploration not so much. A beefalo is fast and gives the actual benefit of being able to interact with it's surroundings. And while most characters don't have aoe the mooses aoe is hindered a lot by his mechanics like slow recharge and not being allowed to bump into stuff. This makes it questionable to use and all around a pain in the ass. The reason we compare woodie to other characters is because all of his niches are filled by other characters and a regular wilson can usually do what he does if not better. I want a buff for woodie, or a change in mechanics cause currently he is lacking a lot

i was talking about their perks which is what my 1st comment was aimed

both has a variety of perks

 

 

i think goose only needs more speed to be a option after you get cane and moose only needs more hp pool, damage per hit and stunlock protection. With these simple buffs woodie would still have his essence, would still keep his mechanics intact (no weird and niche amulet wearing mechanics or healing perks) and would be a desirable option in more phases. Maybe would be too good in early but who cares when the goal is to make a character feel unique and fun and there are better early options

there would be left the problem with full moons which is a harder problem

[Mr Giggio]

At this point after seeing all the new stuff the characters got Woodie is really outdated [and so its willow] once hes really punished for use the idols and eh 

[dzzydzzy]

I think a huge part of the issue with Woodie rn is that he was birthed with the intent of his wereform being a curse; a punishment for not finding restraint in wood chopping. The punishment made you drop all hand/chest/head slot items as well as not interacting with the content of your pockets,  waking up with 0 hunger. The perks being chopping wood and digging stumps a bit faster and with night vision.

His refresh was designed (or at least what his animated short was) to introduce two new forms that are viable for new uses in their own ways. But the fact that it keeps the same punishment system of losing access to the inventory and dropping all equipment, doesn't allow for much flexibility with these forms. You have a very rigid and limited scope of what you're able to accomplish while in were form for 4 minutes and once you're in it, you've committed.

I think what is missing to make this a bit more successful is by giving access to the inventory. Why not? From a lore perspective it doesn't make much sense assuming the player's inventory is just pockets why wouldn't he be able to access his pockets as an animal? Or maybe to introduce the idea of progression to Woodie's kit you introduce the idea of taming the beast. Where on day 1 you have no way of forcing the transformation until after the first full moon, maybe the wereforms get nerfed for the starting days, and then the progression line ends with mastery of all wereforms, being able to seamlessly transition from one to the other, extend the timer for it, actually able to heal/restore sanity while in wereform. And then of course having a way of containing the curse with an amulet, maybe its made of moon gleams, maybe its made of iri gem, idk. Just spitballing here.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, dzzydzzy said:

I think what is missing to make this a bit more successful is by giving access to the inventory

i think that is a bad idea because makes him less original. Just a regular character with steroids instead of having double edge forms

the mechanic would become uninteresting, just strait buffs depending of what you want

sanity drain? np i eat sanity food. Moose tanking too much? np healing food. The player wont need to think how to approach situations with woodie, just play like how they play with every other character which isnt interesting 

i think that the forms should remain the same instead of making a wilba V2

woodie is a character that has no downside outside of full moons (which needs a solution with the current full moons) and his forms are at the same time upsides and downsides

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

sanity drain? np i eat sanity food. Moose tanking too much? np healing food. The player wont need to think how to approach situations with woodie, just play like how they play with every other character which isnt interesting 

That's how majority of the characters are played for a reason, Woodie's forms aren't good because he can't restore health or sanity, so if you are going to fight a raid boss, the preferred option is to not use his ability and just fight like Wilson with ham bat and healing/sanity restoring food.

Being able to eat food while using his forms wouldn't even make him too strong but I agree with you that it would be less "interesting", still gameplay should be number one priority, if a character feels bad to play, why should he stay like that just because of lore or uniqueness? 

When you look at all the other refreshes that have happened and the character releases, why does Woodie need to have such big downsides when almost every other character is better than him? 

Woodie is somewhat good at early game but this is very overrated in itself because the time you spend in the "early" game depends on how fast you can progress and players that are decent at DST have gotten very good at progressing. That's why late game characters like Wanda and Maxwell are so strong, a decent player can obtain Alarming Clock and Thulecite gear when playing either of these two characters in around 10 days.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

46 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Being able to eat food while using his forms wouldn't even make him too strong but I agree with you that it would be less "interesting"

exactly, im not talking about "omg he would become op, nerf pls" but that his forms would lose what makes them unique.

And wont be that good neither because you are in a form that is basically wilson with penalty speed, less dps, sanity drain... without stat boost, you can have all the roasted tomatoes and salsa fresca that wont matter, a hambat and a log suit would be better

47 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

That's how majority of the characters are played for a reason, Woodie's forms aren't good because he can't restore health or sanity, so if you are going to fight a raid boss, the preferred option is to not use his ability and just fight like Wilson with ham bat and healing/sanity restoring food

and for that i dont think is a good idea neither i think he should be able to fight raid bosses in that form, atleast not all

 

for that i suggest straight buffs instead of changing how they work. If the moose becomes stronger with the same mechanic there would be more scenarios where he would be a good option instead of just being good at fighting few enemies at once (but not too much or you will be stunlocked to death).Atleast make it good enough so isn't outclassed by hambat and log suit because, even if is fun already, doing things like cleaning the ruins (too dangerous as him to be actually worth with that poor dps and hp pool plus player needing to time when to become human) or hounds when you can kill them without loosing that much health or sanity as wilson

and the goose is in a similar scenario when you get cane +mag (unless you wanna go to the islands)

[Memetan]

Firstly, thank you for all your replies, it's good to see so much love for Woodie. I'm going to try to give my opinion too:

On 2/19/2023 at 2:46 AM, Evelo said:

Klei removed Lucy's love for Woodie and turned her into a tree murdering demon

That makes me think, me and some people asked for an amulet to prevent him to transform when full moon. What if the amulet is just Lucy? I know that it will be too easy, but it will give some attention to her, like Lucy telling you at dark "This night is full moon, be careful", "Let's do it together", or some kinda of interaction with her.

On 2/19/2023 at 3:49 AM, maxwell_winters said:

the biggest issue with current Woodie is lack of progression

Yes and no? Let's use Maxwell as an example, as you did, Maxwell day 100 is better than Maxwell day 10, because in day 100 he will have all the items he needs to make the best of his powers. That's why me and a lot of people ask about let him use his body slot: Lazy forager to take items from the ground when chopping as beaver or when travelling in the sea as goose, Life giving amulets to restore some health and sanity, even to revive in Klaus stile, Magiluminescence for more speed, hibernation vest to slow the weremeter as it does with hunger and give some sanity etc... But not something like WX-78 that needs to progress to actually have powers.

On 2/19/2023 at 10:27 AM, abrocator said:

Wigfrid and the Moose

Wigfrid babysitting + any character = good. That doesn't fix Woodie, like he can't fight like himself. Still, I need to find a Wigfrid that likes babysitting, because the ones I play with even tell me to not turn into weremoose.

On 2/19/2023 at 11:49 PM, dois raios said:

all wereform should decrease the weremeter faster while stading still, isntead of needing to fight/gnaw things.

Agree because sometimes I just have to move to one place to another to continue fighting or chopping and my wereform just ended, btw can we make dancing drains even faster? Since all Woodies I saw and I just dance when waiting to end the wereform.

Another opinions:

• I don't think wereforms should interact with the inventory, that will make him just like a generic character. The wereforms needs the opposite, make them good, so they don't need to interact with the inventory.
• And some people still thinking that wereforms are mediocre because they are a curse. As an example, a werewolf is someone cursed that can turn in to a monster half human half wolf with high strength and high agility, with the downside of being deadly allergic to silver. Woodie's wereforms already have the downside of cost sanity and all the hunger you had, but they don't look like they have high power at all, more like mediocre power easy outclassed by the constant stuff.

That's all I have to tell for now, so tell me if you think like me or not, or even can improve my ideas, thanks for reading.

Spoiler

Plan b, burn the witch:

 

[Evelo]

4 minutes ago, Memetan said:

That makes me think, me and some people asked for an amulet to prevent him to transform when full moon. What if the amulet is just Lucy? I know that it will be too easy, but it will give some attention to her, like Lucy telling you at dark "This night is full moon, be careful", "Let's do it together", or some kinda of interaction with her.

I like that idea, require her to be held in hand during the full moon to prevent transformation. Could make for some interesting gameplay especially during moonstorm times. Potentially buff Lucy's damage during a full moon to a spear level of damage to compensate, or collect an Opal and combine it with Lucy. So many possibilities and interactions can be done. I love Lucy and definitely feel she is 50% of Woodie's character thematically.

[Mysterious box]

Personally I'm on the side of just letting his were forms access his inventory I get that it's unique but I don't think that should get in the way of the play experience. I don't see the point of keeping him lackluster and niche for the sake of uniqueness especially in the current state of the game where we as a community(for the most part) have accepted changes like this in the past with Wendy's old cooldown system for example.

[Mr Giggio]

10 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

his forms are at the same time upsides and downsides

I think the problem here is peeps started to agree with the fact it doesnt have that much of a upside to worth it, despite goose idol ocean content I fail to see how he can be usefull as the other forms and I invite u to play him more to see that it really can be polished a lil bit more

Cuz moose cant do a fight longer than 4 mins against lil mobs and its even worst against giants

The beaver is ok tho but at the point u dont want tguards u already have really neat ways to farm log and in t he start game u farm it as human to get the livin logs stackin'
 

That being said I guess the inventory access isnt the way. It needs a buff but not that. Maybe allowing the moose to not having to bother with getting stunlocked while attacked can make it usefull againt crowds. It really should be its thing. Also, havin the option to cancel the charge after clicking it to introduce kiting mechanism. It needs longevity to be a thing to consider otherwise I rather fight with hambats and magi.

[dzzydzzy]

I guess the only real reason I mentioned being able to access inventory is so that a player has the ability to interact with items/food that can increase the wereness. Having it be a hard limit is not great to me, and that's where strategies of gathering and prioritizing materials to stay were longer would be helpful. I personally don't see why giving the inventory makes him lackluster, it just encourages to use his gimmick which i think is what makes any character great. You're not gonna play as Wickerbottom and refuse to craft a single book, same with Wanda and watches. Right now, the incentive to use Woodie's forms doesn't have strong appeal, and that's what I find personally lackluster about them.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

I think the problem here is peeps started to agree with the fact it doesnt have that much of a upside to worth it, despite goose idol ocean content I fail to see how he can be usefull as the other forms and I invite u to play him more to see that it really can be polished a lil bit more

agree, the concept is to have an advantage at the cost of being limited (upside-downside concept) but the moose totally fails on that. 

I think that if moose could get ~300hp(-20hp from eating the idol, so 280hp), shorter stunlock animations and higher dps than a hambat (maybe the charge should deal like 100 damage or the damage be a number depending of the distance you traveled with the charge) i can see myself using it for certain fights. Already used him many times in an old +1500day world that i played back in the day to clean the ruins (which wasnt worth for his stats and risk but fun) and dealing with old hound waves. Also i didnt make a silk farm (not a fan of automatic farms, i have fun farming stuff by hand even if is slower) so the moose was really useful to deal with multiple spiderqueen at once

and the goose can be useful in late if were faster when you want to go quick to a place, instead of using mag you much a goose idol and deal with the negative effects

and you bring a good point with the 4 min limit for giants. I dont complaing about the duration (maybe the meter should have more grace time without dropping fast since moose is slow and sometimes is hard to re-engage in combat when the enemy also moves) because you can go far away and eat another one but with bosses is really tricky with their despwn timers or how aggresive. Maybe they can increase it to help in that situations but i think that i would be happy if they buff the stats to make him a good choice for small bosses and daily combat. Not against it because would be dope but neither i would be disappointed if he still cant deal with raid bosses as moose

also i think that bearver fighting stats should be slightly buffed because a lot of old woodie players used his form for that. Currently has a mediocre dps but not horrible, very poor armor (was 30%?) and the meter doesnt drop if you fight (the only form that has 2 "jobs") so clearly klei wanted to keep the old bearver in a nerfed way but i think would be interesting to increase his armor to ~60% and his damage in 5 or 10 points (atacks really fast anyways) and maybe the hp to 200 (not because fighting but for coherence since wolfgang has more hp for being strong and wicker less for being fragile (also wendy should have less hp but what ever...))

woodie doesnt need to be god tier character, just few buffs to make the forms being worth in a wider amount of situations 

1 minute ago, dzzydzzy said:

I guess the only real reason I mentioned being able to access inventory is so that a player has the ability to interact with items/food that can increase the wereness. Having it be a hard limit is not great to me, and that's where strategies of gathering and prioritizing materials to stay were longer would be helpful. I personally don't see why giving the inventory makes him lackluster, it just encourages to use his gimmick which i think is what makes any character great. You're not gonna play as Wickerbottom and refuse to craft a single book, same with Wanda and watches. Right now, the incentive to use Woodie's forms doesn't have strong appeal, and that's what I find personally lackluster about them.

 

because removes an important factor of his mechanics and makes him less original, just a wilson with fur. Also it wont help making him better as i said because a wilson with healing food, log suit and a hambat has more damage, more speed and doesnt suffer a sanity drain

basically you are removing the risk part of the risk- reward mechanic without fixing the problem which is the reward. If wilson is 0 reward and 0 risk and current moose is -1 reward and +3 risk your suggestion makes it -1 reward +1 risk, still not worth

[luivul]

Since lunar grimoire will be crafted more easily thanks to Wilson, life is gonna get harder for Woodie mains. What I propose is that Woodie will transform the first full moon night and then there will be a say, 3 days cooldown before he trasforms again thanks to full moon

[MadMatt]

43 minutes ago, luivul said:

Since lunar grimoire will be crafted more easily thanks to Wilson

I really don't get why Wilson being able to craft an Opal gem out of Ruins gems will RUIN Woodie mains. Wickerbottom can already get two from the archives, a task much easier than killing Dragonfly or rushing ruins.

[JJ0264]

Woodie buff ideas

Goose buff: 10% more speed + can fly over the void in the caves

Moose buff: invincible frames on ramming + 25% faster punching

Beaver buff: automatically digs up stumps + anything the beaver gnaws down provides a bonus material (like 2 marble from marble trees)

All Were-forms: can wear hats (like helmets, milk-made-hats, bee queen crown, pirate hat)

 

Lucy's stone sharpener: allows Lucy to chop any tree with 1 swing for half a day (1 marble, 1 gold, 1 moon rock (5 uses))

Lucy buff: does 68 damage only to tree-guards, birch nutters, mush gnomes, Wormwood and maybe both version of toadstool

Woodie's friendly buff: can befriend 2-3 multiple mobs with 1 meat/carrot

Moon necklaces: ignores full moon transformations like Wilba (1 yellow gem, 3 moon rocks, 2 nightmare fuel)

[abrocator]

When I picture a “Wes fighting character”, I picture Woodie.

There are many ways you can screw yourself by using transformations:

• Transform and then realize that your movement penalty is gonna get you killed
• Transform and then find out that you dropped your hand/head slot which you are gonna need afterwards (like a lantern)
• Transform and then get a hound wave alert: it’s too late to AFK and hasten a transform, and if you wait for the wave to hit then you don’t have enough juice to maintain your animal form, which means that you are gonna get stunlocked in the transformation and die
• Transform, fight, and then realize that you’re in that awkward spot where you are taking so much damage that you can’t finish it as the moose, but you won’t catch a break to transform back in safety

Similar to how this game makes a blooper reel of your gameplay like, “hah, shouldn’t have gone to Moon Quay Island”, it can make a blooper reel like, “hah, that’s what you get for fighting bosses as the moose instead of just as Woodie”.

[WONTow]

(Inhales copium)

So they've said they want to add more late game scaling in the roadmap. You think they're gonna update some of the worst scaling characters? Like Woodie, Willow, Winona?

(Inhales more copium)

[ShadowDuelist]

5 hours ago, JJ0264 said:

Moon necklaces: ignores full moon transformations like Wilba (1 yellow gem, 3 moon rocks, 2 nightmare fuel)

Just as some brainstorming idea: Woodie could perhaps craft a new lunar necklace at one of the lunar crafting stations that not only prevents him from transforming, but also while exposed to moonlight using it, it "charges" the amulet, and you can later use that charge to create more powerful moon infused idols?

And that way make his were forms more powerful. A mechanic like this would actually synergize with wickerbottom or the moonstorm, instead of being a permanent hell.

TBH all wereforms need 20% faster movement speed at very least.
Infused idols could also grant him a full healing upon transforming (like pigs/werepigs do, transforming heals them instead of damaging, like Woodie does).
An infused idol could technically buff Woodie in a mix of any of the suggestions of the posts before me.

As a side note, a lunar necklace could also affect the other lunar character, WormWood.