Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, Dextops said:

except all it achieved was easier tanking. You still had to resource dump a lot, so by your logic getting all the resources for the boat method was the reward. You are still cheesing the boss except they are much more safe and feel more cheesy than the boat method ever did.

Yeah the boat glitch only really helped Wendy out early game for soloing bee queen. But easier tanking is a massive advantage... what do u need like 2 marble suits, 3 bee hats/football helms, one hambat plus one nightshade potion , maybe lets say 5-6 pierogi at most? Then you hold f brainlessly...

That is literally nothing compared to having to mine 80 rock boulders. And its less prep + abusing a bug which i still dont get people defending bugs.... its very clearly not intentional for bee queen, an otherwise very active moving boss to just chill hovering over a boat.

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

That is just comparing the degree of efficiency.  Lets say I spawn in and want to kill a gobbler.  I can swing at it with an axe or a pixaxe.  The pickaxe is going to be much less efficient, does that make it the "real" way?  Is an axe cheese?

The existence of Winona shows us that non-interactive boss setups aren't off the table, so everything in between is just a measure of efficiency against it.  If Winona got buffs enough that her catapults were better than other methods then people would swap to her and people do for where her catapults are useful.  There are a lot of things in this game you can do that are more difficult, or resource intensive while also being less efficient.  tbh that is part of the game is learning which things are better or worse to do.  Just look at crock pot dishes lol like 80%+ of them are absolutely worthless.

My point isnt the increase or decrease in efficiency, its people defending bugs to achieve that efficiency. No game developers should be proud that a bug ends up as a core efficient way to kill a boss in their game. Shame on klei if they never patched these bugs.

 

6 minutes ago, firoborn said:

Since always the boat method was only viable for wendy or multiplayer but now good luck doing beequeen with 9 bunny men that are now gonna try to chace her into the ocean and then die to the grumble bees

You know if you chill and stop attacking bee queen she comes back to the honeycomb spot she spawns from. Bunnymen only help speed the fight up abit, they arnt the core means for me to kill her. Bunnymen on the surface help to kill dragonfly and crabking too... so its never a waste of time bringing them up to surface.

[Yuuko]

43 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah the boat glitch only really helped Wendy out early game for soloing bee queen. But easier tanking is a massive advantage... what do u need like 2 marble suits, 3 bee hats/football helms, one hambat plus one nightshade potion , maybe lets say 5-6 pierogi at most? Then you hold f brainlessly...

That is literally nothing compared to having to mine 80 rock boulders. And its less prep + abusing a bug which i still dont get people defending bugs.... its very clearly not intentional for bee queen, an otherwise very active moving boss to just chill hovering over a boat.

My point isnt the increase or decrease in efficiency, its people defending bugs to achieve that efficiency. No game developers should be proud that a bug ends up as a core efficient way to kill a boss in their game. Shame on klei if they never patched these bugs.

You literally compare your effort of mining 80 rock boulders and specifically call out your prep time against, not abusing a bug, but just knowing the game.  Bqueen didn't go over water because they didn't want her to.  This is on par with chasing a goat or koalephant to the edge of the water so you can trap / engage them.  Can it be extremely advantageous?  Yes.  So is playing pan flute to exit dfly's rage mode, using weather panes to take out Toad's shroom trees, or blocking Klaus' leap attack with his sack (rip)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

plus catapults stays forever while the boat exploit needed new armors, healing, etc... makes 0 sense defending one over the other in terms of difficulty or grinding...

[Dextops]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah the boat glitch only really helped Wendy out early game for soloing bee queen. But easier tanking is a massive advantage... what do u need like 2 marble suits, 3 bee hats/football helms, one hambat plus one nightshade potion , maybe lets say 5-6 pierogi at most? Then you hold f brainlessly...

except you'll always be more efficient if you're skilled. The only time i'd ever use it (which is rarely) is when im extremely fed up with a boss that i find very poorly designed. You're simply either making people
-play the way you want to play. Not everyone likes boss fighting, and not everyone should be forced to play a boss many find so abhorrent and with klei continuously fixing cheeses while keeping the boss in such a poor state is saddening
-take a sizable resource dump. Every other strategy you mentioned is extremely grindy and for what? it doesn't add to gameplay and ends up with a worse result of less skill and trivializing the boss even more

 

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Shame on klei if they never patched these bugs.

Yes, shame on them for not fixing bugs that must be sought for and do not effect the gameplay of those who don't want to use them and worsens the gameplay of those who do. Truly something not almost every game dev does.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Since these exploits exist I guess klei will never add a trap that immobilizes mobs or walls that regenerate on their own.

[00petar00]

58 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You make it sound like catapults, ranged combat and followers dont have drawbacks that make them balanced... there is a reason people prefer glitches to catapults or followers and that reason is prep time...

It takes me around 16 catapults to kill bee queen without having to help at all, that is 240 rocks, 16 silk, 48 grass, 48 twigs plus 4 generators and about 20 nitre.

That is a pretty insane amount of resources that can only be used to kill a single boss. (You have to mine 80!!!!!! rock boulders)

Same with ranged combat by itself... it takes Walter 4 ingame days like 30mins to kill bee queen if using just the slingshot alone.. that is so very slow for an "easy" "cheese" method. Not to mention having to crafting alot of thulecite/marble rounds which require ruins rushing or a limited early game resource like marble. Gold rounds alone would take longer than 4 days.......... if planning to kill bee queen first autumn.

Followers, same as catapults, take a huge amount of resources to setup. 

Each of these methods reward the huge amount of time and resource required to utilize them. 

There is nothing cheesy about any of them. Its simply rewarding those that take the time to be prepared which is what survival games like DST are all about.

There is nothing rewarding about abusing bugged out AI pathfinding.

The issue here is that everything you said is mostly a problem to solo players. If you have 2+ people any boss is infinitely easier to do as it isn't just a simple 1+1 because there are bosses with followers or mechanics that require you to stop attacking and deal with them appropriately, that means you are limited on how many hits you can do.

Boss design from single player DS to DST has shifted, there are many mechanics added that are so much easier to deal with if you have more players. 

DS/T always had simple fighting mechanics, you just kite and press F for most creatures so its not like there is a high degree of skill expression to be shown here, most players if not all would be able to kill bosses if they practiced a bit and had the required healing/armor.

What good would it do if easier methods when it comes to fighting bosses are removed? Variety when it comes to boss fights extends your playtime even if it is exploits or cheese as you will get bored doing the same thing every time. All this would accomplish is make it even harder for solo players while bosses are going to be melted by groups.

To me catapults and followers are also cheese, so you can see that anyone can make their own mind on what they consider falls under that category.

[MondayNight]

Oh, this is still going. Don't know if anyone mentioned the following, fun to remember related to BQ "cheese", was even a post here some time ago for lulz:

> be Wolfgang;
> have 1x Marble Suit, 2x Bee Keeper Hats (just to be sure), some Blue Caps (err on the side of caution), Ham Bat, Pan Flute;
> go Mighty like a B0$$; hammer BQ;
> BQ sings the mad song of her people; Wolf rips shorts when singing his - being a chad, BQ faints;
> hit BQ like you'll do a thief caught in your house, you swinging a barb-wired baseball bat into thief head with the fury of 100 rabid cats (tomato porridge production ensues, yum; cats happy);
> BQ sings the song of her people again in between stopping your Hambat with her face; spit air in Panflute again to flicker her lights out;
> repeat the above till BQ kicks hard the bucket; don't worry, she will die so quick it really is funny - like drunk fist-fight in local pub when supporters of the opposing team enter the wrong not-so-fine-beverages establishment.

Life in Constant's lands where clearly all characters were made the same. No Wendy was hurt in the process.

[HowlVoid]

So now that we have this "bug" fixed, it may have potentially made the fight even more annoying/drawn out. 

Tbh wouldn't be the first time Klei made changes disguised as a "bug" fix. 

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong but apparently DF stopping to attack wasn't a "bug" as there was written code specifically telling her to stop before attacking (someone looked into it and it turned out, it being a bug, was questionable). 

Bee queen wasn't meant to fly over the ocean, a real ocean was added after the fact. C'mon is it really a bug? Did we really "exploit" her ai (her ai is for her to "run" when she's in danger, was her "run" ai exploited?) or did it force bee queen to change her ai completely? Imo, it's more exploiting an old mechanic, aka the theater ocean. As this exploit was very similar to the old void walking exploit.

This is important because Klei "fixed" an old exploit without thinking of the consequences of how bee queen was going to act after the "fix". Instead of having bee queen run to her nest when the player got close to the edge of the ocean.

So now she runs to the ocean. We know that there are similar levels of cheese with more "legitimate" means with tools given by the game. So did this perhaps do more harm than good? 

Is it right to punish EVERY PLAYER for something only a few did? Logically, for the good of the player base, it makes more sense for this to be reverted UNTIL a more engaging and less cheap (speaking about bee queen cheesing US) fight can be arranged. Same as was done for AG. 

Please find a more logical solution Klei.

[Iino]

15 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

that very akward moment when you realize the game is for the players, not for the devs

Last time I checked KLei made and owns the game, which means we as players are at their mercy and any changes they make is to update THEIR game, for them. There is no objective positive or negative to the changes, it just is. You may have an opinion on the matter, but at the end of the day we're all just gonna sit there and enjoy DST, if that's not the case for you I'm sure you'll find a better game that suits your taste.

[00petar00]

21 minutes ago, Iino said:

Last time I checked KLei made and owns the game, which means we as players are at their mercy and any changes they make is to update THEIR game, for them. There is no objective positive or negative to the changes, it just is. You may have an opinion on the matter, but at the end of the day we're all just gonna sit there and enjoy DST, if that's not the case for you I'm sure you'll find a better game that suits your taste.

All game developers are making a product that they sell to a consumer, so that means you have some power in deciding if you want to spend money on a game, that's why it is in their best interest to make updates that most people would approve of. 

That is a really terrible take to have, if everyone thought like you updates wouldn't exist for any game out there as companies want to make money and it is not in their best interest to update a game if they know that people will play and support it anyway.

What is strange is that everyone that has been for removal of BQ boat pathing and Klaus ignoring collision when it comes to loot stash is not talking about how it is affecting other players that didn't use these methods to kill them. Now players have to deal with BQ flying over water and Klaus lunging at them while they can't use loot stash as cover. How are these good patches? These were not exploits.

[Mike23Ua]

The logical solution to fixing players who are brave enough to fight BQ on a boat would be giving the fight brand new “On a Boat” Intelligence.

Meaning… it will see you sitting on your laughable wooden platform and dance circles around you as you feel helpless and trapped.

[SapoLover]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Bee queen wasn't meant to fly over the ocean, a real ocean was added after the fact. C'mon is it really a bug? Did we really "exploit" her ai (her ai is for her to "run" when she's in danger, was her "run" ai exploited?) or did it force bee queen to change her ai completely? Imo, it's more exploiting an old mechanic, aka the theater ocean. As this exploit was very similar to the old void walking exploit.

Was Bee Queen able to fly over docks? If not, I think the case was something like this: Sometimes the Honey Patch spawned in really awful places near the ocean, making killing her with the "clasic" method even more tedious than it usually is. Players would build docks to make an appropriate arena, but BQ's behavior was weird. Bug. (Again, idk if that was the case. If someone could tell...)