Equivalent Exchange

[Mysterious box]

So I know this is probably a idea that'd be hated but I thought it'd be interesting so here goes nothing. What if each of Wickerbottom's books had a additional negative reaction attached to the positive effects for example her fish book while summoning a school of fish would also summon a shark or her light book while also making light and a earthquake in the caves would trigger a depth worm wave in the caves. I know some people might think it'd be too punishing but I feel like it'd be more interesting from a lore perspective and would fall more in line with Maxwell's warnings about magic. 

[Jinjetica]

:/ do you think wicker is completely incompetent and needs maxwell to babysit her? She looks old enough to be his mother! While maxwell doesn't see the value in some of what Wickerbottom does, that doesn't really mean that anything she is doing is any more dangerous than maxwell has already done far more recklessly than her. Also....those things would just be a nightmare for players...why use books with such adverse effects?

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Jinjetica said:

:/ do you think wicker is completely incompetent and needs maxwell to babysit her? She looks old enough to be his mother! While maxwell doesn't see the value in some of what Wickerbottom does, that doesn't really mean that anything she is doing is any more dangerous than maxwell has already done far more recklessly than her. Also....those things would just be a nightmare for players...why use books with such adverse effects?

I mean to be fair going by the lore while he may not look it he's much older than Wickerbottom even if she was born first and considering the vast knowledge he was in possession of over those years I don't think it'd be far fetched to assume he knows something of the consequences of magic.

As for it being a nightmare for players I do agree a full depthworm wave might be a bit much but summoning a shark would be fine the books are already very powerful. 

[Jinjetica]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

As for it being a nightmare for players I do agree a full depthworm wave might be a bit much but summoning a shark would be fine the books are already very powerful. 

T_T but they just wanted to make fishing easier, now there is a shark eating the fish, and biting their face off!

 

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean to be fair going by the lore while he may not look it he's much older than Wickerbottom even if she was born first and considering the vast knowledge he was in possession of over those years I don't think it'd be far fetched to assume he knows something of the consequences of magic.

I AM aware of this, but no one ages in the constant either... While maxwell can warn her about magic, it's because of what happened to him, and his poor life decisions/ignorance... but Wickerbottom isn't the person that Maxwell was back then, she isn't ignorant as he was and she doesn't need to be penalized for her use of magic any more than she currently is with sanity monsters and sanity drain. ofc, I could be wrong about this, we know very little about Wickerbottom's story, maybe she is ignorant, we don't know how she ended up in the constant yet

[Noaa]

I don't think it would fit with Wickerbottom's character. She's not foolish or a risk taker necessarily. She seems more studious and contemplative. Her books requiring careful planning and moderation to not suffer their effects makes sense. But if they had negative drawbacks all the time that were difficult to play around, I don't think the would fit her character as well. It would make things more chaotic. Or make it seem like she's arrogant. I get the impression that she's intelligent and competent. 

Gameplay wise they would have to rebalance all the perks and books to make them using it worth it so I doubt it would ever happen. 

[xhyom]

I feel like that should be kinda obvious actually? I mean, part of her identity in game before the rework was that she does a crazy dangerous trap that could possibly kill herself, but at the same time could destroy some really important bosses, and I kinda liked it that way. What I really disagree with that rework is that most of her new books are so straightfoward it kinda makes it feel dumb, I think it really is part of her character playing smart, using the world at her favour, but she's not the owner of the world.
Some of the least good books could really take advantage of a huge downside if that means a huge buff too. Some books could even take advantage of downside to others books, like angry gestalts appears at forced full moons as an downside, but Lux Aeterna making a safe haven agaisnt these dangers could make it more appealing.

[chirsg]

Shark might almost be beneficial. Their fish drop yield is very reliable if you're prepped. 

[Castaccio]

I personally am not a fan of it, but it seems that Klei is going in the direction of Wicker's books (and exclusive system of mechanics) being her perks outright. If that's what Wickerbottom should be, then I think it's a good idea for her books themselves to have more involved mechanics—including downsides, though perhaps not as noticable as the ones you suggested.

I'm with the people who stand by Wickerbottom being very competent and studios, but I don't think this should remove the downsides of magic entirely. In the constant, magic inherently has downsides as we've seen with Nightmare Fuel and Lunar Energy; Wicker's books are canonically infused with Nightmare Fuel, in fact, which can make them prone to downsides despite her precautions.

Klei already added a larger downside for each in how reading at 0 sanity spawns shadow creatures, but smaller, more granular downsides that Wickerbottom would have to manage in using each book could make for a more interesting system of mechanics. Pyrotechnics doesn't have a unique downside, but it has a unique system with the Fiery Pen—downsides on that scale has the potential to make for more interesting play if done right. 

Apicultural Notes is a good example. Having to create a large enough horde of bees already has players encountering downside #1. Next, the bees'  service comes with several asterisks that Wickerbottoms need to be aware of. Granted, follower mobs are inherently more complicated than summoning lightning or growing plants, but there's already a complex system that Wickerbottoms need to manage. In fact, though I doubt that one would be needed, a Fiery Pen equivalent could be used to further fine-tune it.

I suppose the challenge in implementing this would be giving micro-downsides to books like Horticulture Abridged. I admit that I don't have an answer for that.

[Cheggf]

No one else is punished for daring to want to use their character's power. 

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

No one else is punished for daring to want to use their character's power. 

Woodie players glancing in your direction.

[Ohan]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Woodie players glancing in your direction.

Are u familiar with the sanity cost of the books? Its odd how u can see woodie’s perks are perk and downside in one but not wickerbottom’s books. Its the core of her design. 

—-

this is a really off the wall, strange, out of touch, unrealistic suggestion tbh. 

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Are u familiar with the sanity cost of the books? Its odd how u can see woodie’s perks are perk and downside in one but not wickerbottom’s books. Its the core of her design. 

—-

this is a really off the wall, strange, out of touch, unrealistic suggestion tbh. 

I mean he loses more than just sanity to use his perks and they're not at the level of wickerbottom's books don't see how this is particularly

 

4 minutes ago, Ohan said:

off the wall, strange, out of touch, unrealistic suggestion

Heck they don't even all need to be impactful I see it as more of a cause and effect sort of scenario

[Ohan]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean he loses more than just sanity to use his perks

So its not a real cost until it effects all three stats? All costs in the game have to be the same?

Nevermind that wickerbottom ravages through her sanity from just a couple of reads compared to woodie’s slow trickle down sanity drain. And very often the books need to be read in quick succession which can easily bottom out her 250 sanity.

The hunger drain and damage from eating a totem r part of woodie’s werebeast design. Wickerbottom’s -50/33 sanity for every read is the core of hers. 

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

don't see how this is particularly

The reason why i said its out of touch is because i dont think theres a single wickerbottom player who is familiar with her playstyle who would even think to suggest the sanity cost of the books is not a downside. And offer summoning sharks with every read of the fish book or depths worms with the lux books as a remedy. 

wickerbottom has more downsides than wurt lol. 

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Ohan said:

he reason why i said its out of touch is because i dont think theres a single wickerbottom player who is familiar with her playstyle who would even think to suggest the sanity cost of the books is not a downside.

I never meant it wasn't a downside just that it's minor in comparison to what they do that being said I don't feel like this is a way to nerf Wickerbottom despite me not knowing how to balance it properly clearly more so as a way to add more flavor to how books are handled.

 

4 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Nevermind that wickerbottom ravages through her sanity from just a couple of reads compared to woodie’s slow trickle down sanity drain. And very often the books need to be read in quick succession which can easily bottom out her 250 sanity.

I mean if I spam idols I can bottom out my sanity as woodie with totems as well this is just a resource management scenario it's a hard sell if your trying to tell me Wickerbottom's downside is harsher than Woodie's tho.

9 minutes ago, Ohan said:

The reason why i said its out of touch is because i dont think theres a single wickerbottom player who is familiar with her playstyle who would even think to suggest the sanity cost of the books is not a downside. And offer summoning sharks with every read of the fish book or depths worms with the lux books as a remedy. 

A downside is a downside at the end of the day I'm not saying losing sanity isn't a downside but I'm not also saying having more interesting negative effects to book wouldn't be interesting heck sharks and depths worms on demand can be a positive if used properly and it's not like it has to be guaranteed with every cast heck it could be added to the zero sanity penalty.

[Hornete]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

fish book while summoning a school of fish would also summon a shark

This already happens.

Shark and Gnarwail spawning rolls happen when a school is spawned, this can be schools naturally spawned, or from fish food and wicker's books.

Wee! The marriage of game mechanics and the way they naturally interact with each other due to how past systems were made, 

[Capybara007]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

So I know this is probably a idea that'd be hated but I thought it'd be interesting so here goes nothing. What if each of Wickerbottom's books had a additional negative reaction attached to the positive effects for example her fish book while summoning a school of fish would also summon a shark or her light book while also making light and a earthquake in the caves would trigger a depth worm wave in the caves. I know some people might think it'd be too punishing but I feel like it'd be more interesting from a lore perspective and would fall more in line with Maxwell's warnings about magic. 

that is a cool idea, maybe her books become cursed in some way and she needs to purify them

not like its gonna become a thing though

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Woodie players glancing in your direction.

Wickerbottom already loses stats on reading. 

 

 

[SpookyXy]

Considering all the people calling for Maxwell to lose access to Wicker's books maybe this change should be applied to Maxwell instead. He can still use the books but because he is tainted by shadow magic a negative effect also occurs. That would be reason to use Wicker's books as Wicker.