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Fur Roll fixable with sewing kit + campfire synergy


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@Mysterious box I find your text very hard to read because of the lack of punctuation marks. I've in fact read all your replies many times before responding.

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

slowing and stopping the spoilage mutliple times

I ignored slowing, cuz I think you mean icebox? I mean I assume there is an icebox, right?

 

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

The fact that it never spoils innately? Are we saying healing foods are expensive?

The cost here mainly refers to time cost or effort cost. Time is generally convertible to effort depending on skill level. Healing food comes convenient because they are produced as byproduct of other activities, for example, a hound wave, a seasonable boss, etc. But if you look at the effort of food hunting itself, the time cost is relatively the same as meds crafting time cost. They are preferred because they are convenient in many cases. For example, when you are hurt and hungry and in the kitchen, you will make healing food if there is material. If there is only monster meat in the fridge because you didn't hunt food intentionally recently, you either have to start to hunt food, or make several meat balls with berry bushes then sleep or use meds. You will start considering which is the best option, rather than choosing hunting food by default.

Healing food isn't always convenient especially in pubs.

 

18 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

at which point medicine just can't compete a glan can be nice for scraps and nicks you might get fighting spiders and salves and honey poultice are decent enough at healing but they really can't compare to food even more so in the hands of experienced players are they bad means of healing? No but more often than not because of how much better food is they go ignored

It's not very readable to me, but i'll try.

You add another assumption here that gland is abundant. But it's not, especially in pub game. Silk and gland are rare. To get most healing out of the several glands you have, it's better to make salves out of them. That has happened multiple times to me before, and it's how I adapt to the situation. Why don't I use healing food? Sorry, there was only materials for meatball.

You consider a lot of conditions you added as something that everyone can have for granted. But it's not. For example, healing food is easy only in well established bases where people (usually me in my games) spend substantial time building a good variety of food source around the base. But that luxurious conditions isn't default by granted. For example, if I only have 2 hours to play and want to fight a boss, should I spend majority of my time building a base and come back the second day finding the server got reset?

With perfect condition, log suits are too weak, because apparently you can have unlimited thulecite gears with well established fuel weaver farm. Another example of this kind of argument would be that log suit is too weak because you can easily farm pig skins in pig farms.

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10 minutes ago, goatt said:

I ignored slowing, cuz I think you mean icebox? I mean I assume there is an icebox, right?

There's also items like the insulated pack as well.

 

11 minutes ago, goatt said:

The cost here mainly refers to time cost or effort cost. Time is generally convertible to effort depending on skill level. Healing food comes convenient because they are produced as byproduct of other activities, for example, a hound wave, a seasonable boss, etc. But if you look at the effort of food hunting itself, the time cost is relatively the same as meds crafting time cost. They are preferred because they are convenient in many cases. For example, when you are hurt and hungry and in the kitchen, you will make healing food if there is material. If there is only monster meat in the fridge because you didn't hunt food intentionally recently, you either have to start to hunt food, or make several meat balls with berry bushes then sleep or use meds. You will start considering which is the best option, rather than choosing hunting food by default.

Healing food isn't always convenient especially in pubs.

There are other circumstances at play here as well food has faster animations than medicine meaning that you simply heal faster and are more safe doing so there's also a ton of different options when it comes to healing foods some individual foods some crockpot recipes some do take more effort than others but in most cases you can make ways for them to produce on their own tho the same also applies to healing salves but not honey poultices unless your basing in the swamp with a bee box I guess. As far as pubs go unless your carrying the stack of medicine on you at all times which is definitively an option you run into the same issue where people who don't need it end up using it up.

 

18 minutes ago, goatt said:

You add another assumption here that gland is abundant. But it's not, especially in pub game. Silk and gland are rare. To get most healing out of the several glands you have, it's better to make salves out of them. That has happened multiple times to me before, and it's how I adapt to the situation. Why don't I use healing food? Sorry, there was only materials for meatball.

Unless someone outright made spiders go extinct for some unholy reason(this has happened in the past) there is no good reason for this to be the case outside of being unwilling to hunt spiders and if someone is turning everything in your fridge into meatballs and eating every bite of food you manage to get I think you have bigger issues than your healing method on that server that's nothing against you I'd just say your probably wasting your time there.

 

22 minutes ago, goatt said:

ou consider a lot of conditions you added as something that everyone can have for granted. But it's not. For example, healing food is easy only in well established bases where people (usually me in my games) spend substantial time building a good variety of food source around the base. But that luxurious conditions isn't default by granted. For example, if I only have 2 hours to play and want to fight a boss, should I spend majority of my time building a base and come back the second day finding the server got reset?

Have you considered bee boxes they're fairly low effort and give a ton of resources for healing both sanity and hp even makes honey poultices easier to make there's also trail mix as a option but again if your playing in a server where the group is actively working against your efforts to do as much as you can in under 2 hours your probably better off finding a different server or making a play group because that just seems like a headache. 

34 minutes ago, goatt said:

With perfect condition, log suits are too weak, because apparently you can have unlimited thulecite gears with well established fuel weaver farm. Another example of this kind of argument would be that log suit is too weak because you can easily farm pig skins in pig farms.

Again as I've said these options aren't bad most people ignore them because food simply does the job better this isn't me saying you can't use them or they're bad. That being said even with these examples your making they're not as cut and dry as your making it.

 

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Nine grass, two minutes of time and 120 hunger to regain 80 sanity isn't a very alluring proposition. The fur roll is better in this regard, but two bunny puffs requires six bunnymen kills on average. And that's on top of the nine grass for the straw roll, which you still need for the fur roll. For me to acquire a lot of quick sanity, I'd rather walk to the desert, gather some cactus and call it a day. And then I'd gain hunger (and health) instead of losing hunger. And it's not character dependent, because Webber for example can't just start a bunny war.

Sleeping is just expensive for what it offers. You can just let your sanity drop, save your resources and kill the nightmare creatures for nightmare fuel. Almost every food heals you nowadays as well. And you could use that time spent sleeping to gather more resources, as opposed to losing that time and a lot of hunger that you now need to gather food to replenish.

Honestly in its current state it's a trap for new players. If they craft a straw roll it's likely to hurt them more than it benefits them. It's kind of comical in a way. 

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@Mysterious box

At this point, I think I've laid out my points very clearly. Let me recap. You are saying healing food are superior. I responded, yes, but not in all cases, and then I showed the cases. Then you responded with cases that healing food are preferred. And I responded, yes, but there are cases that it is not.

If you can't recognize the value in my arguments, we are just gonna run in cycle. I have recognized what you said from the beginning. I have nothing new to add other than repeating myself. And I find no reason to do so. I think this is a good point to end it.

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6 hours ago, goatt said:

A bad design would be to allow sleeping to be a good alternative to food healing, boss loot healing and other healing means in many cases.

Sleepwalking, when, Klei?

2 hours ago, EighteenXVIII said:

And it's not character dependent, because Webber for example can't just start a bunny war.

Kind of a bad example since he can craft and sleep in spider dens instead.

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On 5/28/2022 at 7:38 PM, Cheggf said:

How do you convey this information to the player?

Let's remind ourselves that whole fuelweaver questline and mooncaller ritual exist and they aren't explained in any way. The game clearly isn't intended to give all the info to the player.

 

On 5/28/2022 at 9:32 PM, Gashzer said:

Nah fur roll is fine as is, any buffs to it would undermine walter's portable tent, which is awesome btw with 10uses, warms you up, drys you off.. great for exploring caves in winter with beefalo hat or in spring with rain coat. 

Only buff to fur roll i would want is to increase bunny puff drop rate to like 40%.

Sleeping is a great mechanic, people are just too lazy to wait 2mins to get full health and sanity but are happy enough to waste 2mins organising ingredients an waitin for crockpots to cook. Makes no sense to me.

Much rather eat raw meat/lichen/cooked monster meat/blue caps than havin to run back to base to cook food. Walter is great for nomadic play cause of his tent and faster cookin speed on campfire. Crockpots are overrated. Sleeping is the way!

As you've said: it's better to just eat blue shrooms. Much better than sleeping, honestly, because it's quicker considering how much blue shrooms there are in a blue shroom forest in caves and even if you're not in caves, still a decent amount in birchnut forest. Also, while you are cooking food, you can do something else if the recipe takes more than 15 seconds to cook, meanwhile sleeping makes you completely stationary.
TL;DR blue mushrooms > sleeping.

 

21 hours ago, goatt said:

The reason people don't use them, I think, is because people are lazy. When they are in the kitchen, they just use kitchen to heal without thinking too much. But healing salves and honey poultice are actually really good and efficient for mass production and general healing.

Completely wrong here. That's, instead, because you can just use blue mushrooms in early-game to rush ruins and kill bee queen during first autumn, and later on just use jellybeans. I understand that not everyone are able to rush bee queen as a character that isn't Wendy/Wicker/Winona, but still, it's a possibility, and a much more viable one. Even with average skill and no boss rushing blue shrooms remain a decent option until you get jellybeans, and if you play as Wendy, bee queen in first autumn is effortless anyway.

 

20 hours ago, goatt said:

Just because you deliberately compare meds and food in your preferred conditions, doesn't mean other conditions don't exist.

That's the a bit annoying, but important thing for DST discussions. You can assume a lot of situations, but after all, only newbies would end up in situations when they're only able to mass-produce healing items instead of food (which, by the way, are terrible because of their long usage animation which doesn't help at all in boss fights and because it's easier to dig up blue shrooms or at least get healing crockpot items if you're so desperate for sanity), and tuning content's usefulness only to how the newbies play isn't really good, because as it is now, healing items and sleeping are both outclassed by food completely.

 

On 5/28/2022 at 1:55 PM, Wonz said:

I could see it as a big thing for wormwood for example.

Wormwood mains already have bat bats, especially a ton of ones from the labyrinth, so eh.

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@grumm9690 You have again assume a very specific growth path for a character: blue cap, rush ruins, bq, good food establishment, etc, etc. You can do that if you are skilled, and if the whole world belongs to you, and if just wanna fight fight and fight. But what if someone took blue caps before you? What if the ruins are already empty? What if you don't know who took all the stone fruit sprouts? What if I focused on base building for days that all my food has spoiled and I'm left with only monster meat and berry bushes, but I need healing? Of course, food healing is advantageous in many cases because they are promoted by game design and I think it's a good design. And I think it's a good design that meds and sleeping remain less useful but can still help in many circumstances.

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27 minutes ago, grumm9690 said:

Wormwood mains already have bat bats, especially a ton of ones from the labyrinth, so eh.

Have you tried to rush ruins as him with fur roll? It's good but it takes painfully long to restore stats. Bed rolls are cool items I don't like seeing them left far behind food items or magic for their cost.

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1 hour ago, grumm9690 said:

Let's remind ourselves that whole fuelweaver questline and mooncaller ritual exist and they aren't explained in any way. The game clearly isn't intended to give all the info to the player.

Can you maybe give an on topic example of an item that doesn't make it clear how the item works instead of weird rambling about a boss fight? Bone armor clearly negates all damage, visible as soon as you get hit. Bone helm clearly makes you insane, visible as soon as you equip it. Moon staff clearly cools you down, visible by standing near it. 

Although let's remind ourselves that even if you do give an example of an unintuitive item, that's just showing that that item should be made more clear. 

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42 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Snip

Isn't that something that could be said about anything ever?

You have to fumble around with literally anything just to figure out what it does or how it works.

Spoiler

Or you could just not waste time and look it up or be taught it so you can just copy it faster.

 

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3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Can you maybe give an on topic example of an item that doesn't make it clear how the item works instead of weird rambling about a boss fight? Bone armor clearly negates all damage, visible as soon as you get hit. Bone helm clearly makes you insane, visible as soon as you equip it. Moon staff clearly cools you down, visible by standing near it. 

Although let's remind ourselves that even if you do give an example of an unintuitive item, that's just showing that that item should be made more clear. 

Grumm is not talking about what items from FW and moon caller do, he's talking about how unintuitive it is to just start the fuelweaver fight and moon caller event. I mean, theoretically you could figure these out on your own, but it's hard to imagine.

Ok, so you mine stalagmites in caves and get a rare fossil drop. You notice how you can place it on the ground. Turns out you can add more to it. You assemble the full skeleton, examine it, the character says something about it being assembled wrong. You hammer it and rebuild it until you get the correct one. 

You find unique-looking marble statues and mine them. They resemble clockwork mobs that you may have seen before. You bring the heavy missing pieces and repair them. You finished assembling them and mining them just breaks them apart, so what's next? You're going to occasionally pass them by and if it just so happens to be a full moon or a new moon, you will notice them shaking and making sounds. You mine them, clockworks spawn (full moon) or weird new shadow monsters spawn (new moon). You notice the sketches that dropped, build the statues and logically assume that if you create the sculptures they're gonna act the same way on a new moon. Ok, you fought the shadow pieces and got the shadow atrium. Somehow you assume that giving it to the skeleton makes it come to life. 

Then, you find the ruins by exploring the caves, find the ancient guardian and kill it for the ancient key. That's pretty straightforward. You kill a giant tentacle and find out it acts like a wormhole. Then you decide to kill all the giant tentacles to see where each one leads, you stumble upon the atrium biome and make your way to the ancient gate. You logically assume that it requires the ancient key you got from the guardian. Great, you activated it, now what? How are you supposed to figure out that you need to assemble the skeleton in this exact location? How are you even supposed to figure out that giving the atrium in the caves is gonna summon a different stalker than on the surface? 

And moon caller, well. You (somehow) think to insert any magic staff because of the base of the altar. Examine it and see that it's a wrong staff. You put each staff and examine it, notice that star caller is correct. Wait for a full moon for something to happen (logical connection: moon altar -> full moon) and defend it from monsters that try to destroy it.

TLDR: it's not impossible to figure all of this out, but it's highly improbable.

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8 hours ago, goatt said:

@grumm9690 You have again assume a very specific growth path for a character: blue cap, rush ruins, bq, good food establishment, etc, etc. You can do that if you are skilled, and if the whole world belongs to you, and if just wanna fight fight and fight. But what if someone took blue caps before you? What if the ruins are already empty? What if you don't know who took all the stone fruit sprouts? What if I focused on base building for days that all my food has spoiled and I'm left with only monster meat and berry bushes, but I need healing? Of course, food healing is advantageous in many cases because they are promoted by game design and I think it's a good design. And I think it's a good design that meds and sleeping remain less useful but can still help in many circumstances.

About the circumstances with being late: I, personally, not join public servers that are older than day 1-2 for that reason, but for people who like joining even late-game worlds, fair, but even then, you can ask people to share some resources, if they're having a big base for everyone instead of a ton of separated ones.

About the base-building circumstances: well, you see, that's what I said, only newbie would get into a situation of that sort, because the player would normally notice, that your fridge food is about to spoil and go get something else if you also need healing meanwhile. If an item is only useful for people who are very bad or at the game or are new to it, it's bad game design imo.

 

8 hours ago, Wonz said:

Have you tried to rush ruins as him with fur roll? It's good but it takes painfully long to restore stats. Bed rolls are cool items I don't like seeing them left far behind food items or magic for their cost.

I haven't tried rushing with fur roll, but I've tried doing it with labyrinth's bat bats and it wasn't that bad. But yeah, I agree that sleeping is much less viable than, as example, healing food, and it needs to be fixed.

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15 hours ago, grumm9690 said:

About the base-building circumstances: well, you see, that's what I said, only newbie would get into a situation of that sort,

Imagine you are building someone else's crappy base which dont have good food source.

Another example is, imagine you are too focused and forgot to do food. This happens a lot to me.

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On 5/29/2022 at 3:04 PM, goatt said:

@grumm9690 You have again assume a very specific growth path for a character: blue cap, rush ruins, bq, good food establishment, etc, etc. You can do that if you are skilled, and if the whole world belongs to you, and if just wanna fight fight and fight. But what if someone took blue caps before you? What if the ruins are already empty? What if you don't know who took all the stone fruit sprouts? What if I focused on base building for days that all my food has spoiled and I'm left with only monster meat and berry bushes, but I need healing? Of course, food healing is advantageous in many cases because they are promoted by game design and I think it's a good design. And I think it's a good design that meds and sleeping remain less useful but can still help in many circumstances.

What if somebody took all the grass tufts and killed all the bunnymen?

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1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

What if somebody took all the grass tufts and killed all the bunnymen?

I have never experience zero grass tufts. If I got into such a server, I'll just quit. But I have experienced zero bunnymen.

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10 hours ago, goatt said:

Imagine you are building someone else's crappy base which dont have good food source.

I would first go get some food before building the base, or just quickly build the basic stuff, like, two-three crockpots, alchemy, fridge, maybe birdcage.

 

10 hours ago, goatt said:

Another example is, imagine you are too focused and forgot to do food. This happens a lot to me.

I don't remember that happening to me. I also never really build a big base and mostly go for bosses, so that's possibly why.

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